Is it cheating

I just don't think it's realistic to expect a 100 hour per year casual pilot that might shoot 1-2 in actual per year to be able to handle the system as it is in a /U, no auto pilot, basic aircraft, without making a lot of mistakes. The workload is just too high without some technology to help.

Huh???? :dunno:

I remember when I got my first DME installed after years of flying behind Narco Mk12B's and an old ADF with no autopilot. I thought it was a giant leap in technology. :rolleyes:
 
What do you think people did 10-15 years ago?

My point is that 15 years ago the system was better geared to a /A /U GA aircraft. When was the last time at a really busy airport in IMC that you got an approach clearance from 20 miles with an IF?
 
My point is that 15 years ago the system was better geared to a /A /U GA aircraft. When was the last time at a really busy airport in IMC that you got an approach clearance from 20 miles with an IF?
It's actually easier to do a last minute change with conventional radios rather than trying to reprogram the FMS, plus the system has not changed much in 15 years, if at all. There might even be less traffic now.
 
It's actually easier to do a last minute change with conventional radios rather than trying to reprogram the FMS, plus the system has not changed much in 15 years, if at all. There might even be less traffic now.


Very true. Back in the early 90's we were flying B-727's with 2 VOR receivers and 2 ADF's, and one autopilot.

No long range nav. Our DME's didn't have a hold position nor a GS readout. Yet we managed to fly anywhere in North, Central and South America. :dunno:
 
Even when ATC could clear me to a fix using GPS, it's been my experience that the busier the airspace is the more likely I am to get vectors to the final approach course. This is, of course, the "easiest" thing on a /A or /U aircraft. And it's the reason why all the GPS have the "vectors to final" function easily accessible.
 
I commend L Adamson and Alexb2000 to the following video. This is a SERIOUS training video that deserves about 20 minutes of attention. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kREPMzMLk


I have watched that video several times. Follows on the heels of the American Airlines 757 crash into terrain in Columbia. It goes to prove what that 757 didn't have for onboard navigation, compared to what we have now.

It didn't have the big picture.............that my Garmin 696 handheld portable would have. This old video only reinforces my points.

Lookup the 757 crash, or perhaps the Ron Brown 737 crash for references. Both were CFIT ---- that doesn't need to happen with technology that now exists.
 
The responses are predictable. Mostly coming from professional pilots and instructors. Of course this stuff is easy when you do it everyday. I also fly a lot and have no problem flying /A.

The point once again is that a professional pilot/crew can handle a lot more than the typical private pilot.

Case in point I was on an arrival into KADS in IMC. Things were happening quickly just like usual. They tell a guy in a piper to go direct X. Long pause. ATC calls him again. He says, "that's not on the arrival". ATC spells the fix (which isn't). He says, "Um.... I'm /A". ATC breaks him out on a vector, which he misses, and his course has to be corrected again by a P.O.ed sounding ATC. Then they rattle off two VOR coordinates for the fix. By this time the pilot is frustrated, totally lost situationally, his radios aren't tuned, he's looking at the wrong chart for the frequencies, and he is pre-occupied just trying to get a word in on the radio. Did it get worked out? Sure, eventually, but if there was a mountain out there somewhere he could have easily hit it.

I don't think this conversation is going to change anyones opinion.
 
Case in point I was on an arrival into KADS in IMC. Things were happening quickly just like usual. They tell a guy in a piper to go direct X. Long pause. ATC calls him again. He says, "that's not on the arrival". ATC spells the fix (which isn't). He says, "Um.... I'm /A". ATC breaks him out on a vector, which he misses, and his course has to be corrected again by a P.O.ed sounding ATC. Then they rattle off two VOR coordinates for the fix. By this time the pilot is frustrated, totally lost situationally, his radios aren't tuned, he's looking at the wrong chart for the frequencies, and he is pre-occupied just trying to get a word in on the radio. Did it get worked out? Sure, eventually, but if there was a mountain out there somewhere he could have easily hit it.
Seems like the main problem in that story is that the pilot couldn't follow a vector. You can get just as mixed up trying to program your automation as you can looking at a chart, especially if you don't understand what ATC is trying to tell you to begin with.
 
I prefer using a computer or a cell phone, as an aid..........instead of tapping out Morse code for the normal course of conversation.
You have to learn to talk before you can use a cell phone (unless you think texting the person next to you is a good way to communicate).

In today's world, do we really want to teach students to fly.....just by the basics that you've listed above?
You keep throwing in additional restrictions beyond what we've said. But yes, I do want to teach them to fly just by the basics I've listed before I teach them how to use the systems that automate much of the work. The reason is in the Law of Primacy -- if things go sour, I want them to revert to the fundamentals, and if they don't learn those first, they won't be able to use them in time of crisis. Also, I've seen more than one person punch a bunch of numbers into a computer and then take whatever comes out without any recognition of the absurdity of the result caused by an entry error.

There was a great story years ago in an engineering journal about a group of young engineers who presented their boss with a construction plan for a manufacturing building that included a drainage pond big enough to drop in the Empire State Building without making a ripple. The facts that 90% of the cost of the project was the drainage pond instead of a more typical 5%, and that the whole project cost was about 10 times that for a typical project of that size, didn't faze them -- the numbers came out of the computer, so they must be right. The boss, having grown up with a slide rule, knew how to come up with rough estimates based on experience, and instantly recognized both the fact that there was a major error, and where the error lay.

Likewise, I've seen pilots head north when they should be heading west simply because they made an entry error in their GPS, or flew past a turnpoint without concern when the GPS gave them a 20-minute leg to a point 5 miles away. In the low-level fighters I flew for 15 years, we had intertial, digital nav computers, nav radars, doppler nav, and a bunch of other stuff, but at the end of the day, it was all about basic DR -- time, heading, speed, and distance. If we knew the next leg was supposed to be a right turn heading 355 for 4 minutes and 25 seconds, we did not follow the nav system if it said to turn left to west for 10 minutes.

Is there a problem with creating more direct routing, rather than hop scotching between VORs, or triangulating which requires more eye time in the cockpit, instead of scanning the sky ahead?
Many times, you don't have that choice. And I've seen plenty of occasions where my GPS says "GPS NAV LOST USE ALTERNATE NAV SYSTEMS." If you can't revert to raw VOR when that happens, and not hit anything while you're refiguring, you aren't safe to fly.

If it all goes to ****, won't synthetic vision beat interpreting dials, while nothing but shades of gray or black are seen out the windscreen?
If it all goes south, you may not have that SVT. Now what?

Why not just teach all of this at the beginning, instead of creating the illusion that it's cheating or an unnecessary aid.
Again, you're assuming facts not in evidence. I certainly never said it was cheating, although I will say it is certainly not essential to safe flying. I personally flew thousands of hours in light planes safely before SVT, EVS, GPS, and all that other alphabet soup were invented. As for why we teach the basics first, it's all about the Law of Primacy -- you have to learn the most important stuff first if the trainee is going to remember it later in time of need.

One last question in my mind about you -- just how many folks have you prepared for PP and IR practical tests in the last 15 years that all this gear has been invented? Are you even a CFI?
 
The responses are predictable. Mostly coming from professional pilots and instructors.
...so of course we aren't going to know anything. You remind me of a Second Officer I once had....who was eventually relieved.

It's not about the technology. It's about the technology to human interface. What's really interesting is watching training pairs in the sim. The older guy in the left seat wants to go down a level in automation. The younger guy in the right seat want to go UP a level in automation or reprogram the current level.

When the younger guy is the PF, and the older guy is the PNF, think about just how successful that is....the Younger guy is asking the older guy to hit the keypad.

If the older guy is flying, the younger guy just sits there as steams as the captain steps down an automation level.

It's about how the TWO HUMANS interact with the machine, not about how obvious a new piece of technology makes it to YOU, may be to YOU, but not to someone else who has as much or maybe MORE to contribute to the management of a situation.
 
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I just don't think it's realistic to expect a 100 hour per year casual pilot that might shoot 1-2 in actual per year to be able to handle the system as it is in a /U, no auto pilot, basic aircraft, without making a lot of mistakes.
So what happens if the technology quits on them? They die? That's why the FAA requires that every IR applicant be able to fly without the fancy stuff -- because from time to time, it does fail.
The workload is just too high without some technology to help.
Only if you were trained the way L. Adamson would have you trained. Train with me, and all that technology becomes merely "nice to have" rather than "you bet your life on it.";)
 
My point is that 15 years ago the system was better geared to a /A /U GA aircraft. When was the last time at a really busy airport in IMC that you got an approach clearance from 20 miles with an IF?
Given that I fly into a lot of airports that aren't that busy, and you get sent to the IAF to fly the full approach, and most of the ones that are don't let you use the technology (you ain't getting a TAA clearance 20 miles from the IAF into JFK), I don't see your point.

Also, the FAA doesn't issue instrument ratings limited to aircraft with GPS and an autopilot, and even if they did, what would happen to such a pilot if the equipment died?
 
I have watched that video several times. Follows on the heels of the American Airlines 757 crash into terrain in Columbia. It goes to prove what that 757 didn't have for onboard navigation, compared to what we have now.
Thanks for proving my point, because what that 757 didn't have onboard was a crew which had good fundamentals, else they would have realized that there was something dreadfully wrong when the nav system said to go east instead of south.
 
As an aside, would L.Adamson and Alexb2000 suggest that kids in school shouldn't have to learn how to write because computers can do that for them, or learn arithmetic because calculators can do that for them, or reading because they can watch it on TV instead of a book?

:sigh:

Anyone besides me know who C.M. Kornbluth was, and read either "The Little Black Bag" or "The Marching Morons"?
http://litmed.med.nyu.edu/Annotation?action=view&annid=1578
http://www.univeros.com/usenet/cach...ornbluth - The Marching Morons Collection.pdf
 
I commend L Adamson and Alexb2000 to the following video. This is a SERIOUS training video that deserves about 20 minutes of attention. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kREPMzMLk

I watched this first about 6 months ago, and found it to be one of the best educational videos I've watched. It's also how I've flown.

Maybe the reason the instructors, professional pilots, experienced folk, etc. are advocating what we advocate would have to do with the fact we've seen enough things go south to know it's important to know how to deal with.

I also haven't seen any of the experienced folk saying technology is bad. Rather seems to have been the opposite, just that it's important to know how to live without it...
 
As an aside, would L.Adamson and Alexb2000 suggest that kids in school shouldn't have to learn how to write because computers can do that for them, or learn arithmetic because calculators can do that for them, or reading because they can watch it on TV instead of a book?

:sigh:

Yup, I'm just some low-brow idiot to dumb to live without technology.

Sounds like you've got me all figured out.
 
Yup, I'm just some low-brow idiot to dumb to live without technology.

Sounds like you've got me all figured out.

When did he say that, or even anything implying it?
 
Thanks for proving my point, because what that 757 didn't have onboard was a crew which had good fundamentals, else they would have realized that there was something dreadfully wrong when the nav system said to go east instead of south.

Actually, the incident proves the opposite in my opinion. You have a captain with 13,000 hours AF trained. FO with ~6,000 hours also AF trained. They were both current, skilled, capable, familiar, what more could you ask for?

Yet they made a mistake and lost situational awareness, just like ANYONE could.

You really must be a hell of a pilot to throw rocks at these guys.
 
Actually, the incident proves the opposite in my opinion. You have a captain with 13,000 hours AF trained. FO with ~6,000 hours also AF trained. They were both current, skilled, capable, familiar, what more could you ask for?

Yet they made a mistake and lost situational awareness, just like ANYONE could.

You really must be a hell of a pilot to throw rocks at these guys.

Where did he throw rocks? You're right, they were both very well trained and may have benefitted from having the extra tools. Yet cockpit voice recordings of other CFIT accidents typically have "Terrain, terrain! Pull up, pull up!" in the background as the aircraft collides with a mountain.

Nobody said "fly without these extras." What was said was "Make sure you're able to fly without these extras." There seems to be a disconnect here.
 
When did he say that, or even anything implying it?

The implication is pretty clear, technology is a crutch for those that don't have the discipline, skill, and/or mental capacity to just use the basics. There can be NO other reason that someone would suggest technology can improve flying safety.

What am I missing?
 
Where did he throw rocks?

"because what that 757 didn't have onboard was a crew which had good fundamentals"

Pretty clear rock throwing to me.

I have never said, "I proudly fly without the fundamentals, because I have TAA technology".

I don't even know where this keeps coming from.

What I did suggest is that if a professional 757 crew can make a mistake, then how much easier (and more likely) would it be for a 100 hour per year private pilot?
 
The implication is pretty clear, technology is a crutch for those that don't have the discipline, skill, and/or mental capacity to just use the basics. There can be NO other reason that someone would suggest technology can improve flying safety.

What am I missing?

You're reading a lot further into it than is really there. I won't speak for anyone else, but I know in my case, I try to get as good of equipment as I can in the planes I fly. We just spent a good sum of money on getting an Aspen in the 310 (granted, there was a failure that induced the purchase, but we are happy with it), just upgraded the 530 to a 530W, just bought a real radar unit, and are planning on getting that and a stormscope installed shortly. We wouldn't spend the money on having the tools if we didn't feel there was value. Do I use it as a crutch? No, I use it to enhance my flight safety and hopefully not end up in an NTSB report as so many who have come before me. Nobody who you and Adamson seem to be disagreeing with flies /A or /U just to show his manly manliness.

But would you rather just fly around in a situation where the SVT and TAWS have to tell you your altitude is too low, or would you rather know that on your own from other means so that you can prevent them from yelling at you? Proactive or reactive? Proactive is a lot less stressful.

Would you rather be familiar with what your backup system is and know how to use it, even if poorly but well enough to get you back to the ground, or would you prefer to hope that whatever deity you subscribe to is smiling upon you and gives you an out?

Would you rather have more knowledge to add to the data banks, even if it's not something that you use often, or would you rather know only what you need to know every day? Aside from the "Terrain, terrain! Pull up, pull up!", the other common CVR words are "Uhh... what's it doing?" from pilots.

I'm not the world's greatest pilot - far from it. I have faults, I make mistakes, I benefit from having extra tools, just like everyone else. But if I do it right, when those tools die on me I should have other means of getting to an airport and landing safely. I want my students to have the same.

A few months ago I was doing a commercial day XC with a student, which is VFR. What I'll typically do for that is turn all the avionics off. Adamson would kick me out of the plane then so I'd be sure to bring a parachute if flying with him, but fortunately my student accepted the challenge and realized the educational value. Gee, by dead reckoning, he got us within 5 nm of the airport on a 150 nm trip. He also learned the old fashioned way, even though he uses his 530W for all normal trips.
 
The implication is pretty clear, technology is a crutch for those that don't have the discipline, skill, and/or mental capacity to just use the basics. There can be NO other reason that someone would suggest technology can improve flying safety.

What am I missing?
A lot.

And, apparently, on purpose.

Nobody here has said technology is bad. What we've said is that for aviatiors, technology supplements, but does not replace, a knowledge and understanding of the basics.

Let's use cars as an example. It's no longer necessary to understand any of what goes on under the hood to be a driver in the USA. But when you have an engine failure in your car, it's not going to kill you.

On the other hand, if you were going to drive from Ohio to Brazil, down along the Pan-American Highway, you'd be an idiot if you didn't pick a good reliable vehicle like an older Suburban, or something similar, AND know the "usual" failure modes and how to fix them. Otherwise you may die.

So, back to airplanes. Give me all the toys there are. I love SVT, I love TCAS, I love TAWS, I love my three-axis digital autopilots. All of them help me and improve my safety. None of them relieve me of my duty to be able to keep the plane upright and out of the weeds/rocks without them.
 
It's much better to Google the vast stretches of the Internet, for a much more rounded sampling of thoughts on this subject. You'll see all sides, instead of just a few long timers opinions.
 
It's much better to Google the vast stretches of the Internet, for a much more rounded sampling of thoughts on this subject. You'll see all sides, instead of just a few long timers opinions.
If the folks with advanced degrees in the field, and decades and thousands of hours of experience disagree with you, going to a source of anonymous opinion without credentials is a good way to find the validation for your ideas. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for out there somewhere. Good luck in your search.
 
A lot.

And, apparently, on purpose.

Nobody here has said technology is bad. What we've said is that for aviatiors, technology supplements, but does not replace, a knowledge and understanding of the basics.

WTF???

Maybe quite a few people are just reacting to me as the antagonist of the day. I have never said or implied on this thread or anywhere else that a knowledge and understanding of the basics isn't required.

That hasn't been the rub or a source of disagreement on this thread since page one.

The rub is questioning a group that has convinced themselves that they are just so damn good that a maximum level of safety in 2012 can be achieved with just the basics. When an example like the AA965 accident is brought up then they just rationalize that those pilots despite their experience and background also had a lack of knowledge of the fundamentals... sounding familar?

I'll be the first to admit that many, many, pilots 10 times better than I'll ever be are gone. I am going to use the very best equipment, best training, and conservative decision making I can; with the foregoing serving as a constant reminder never to convince myself I'm just so good that I don't need to take advantage of every "crutch" there is.
 
The implication is pretty clear, technology is a crutch for those that don't have the discipline, skill, and/or mental capacity to just use the basics. There can be NO other reason that someone would suggest technology can improve flying safety.

What am I missing?
The basics. That requires discipline, too.

There are some moments when discipline and the basics brought me home with failed technology. And some of the best there is, too.

I too want all the toys. But that does not relieve me for judgement, capablility assessment, and execution requirements. You still don't get it- technology may make you more capable, but whether you are "safer" or not does not follow technology.
LAdamson said:
It's much better to Google the vast stretches of the Internet, for a much more rounded sampling of thoughts on this subject. You'll see all sides, instead of just a few long timers opinions.
Just as your dissing of the AA traiing session shows- thre were about 500,000 flying hours in that room. Very very presumption of you to think you know better that that crowd. That's one tough room.

Everyone knows I don't suffer fools well. I'm done with you two. You don't have to stay here- go google flying 2.0 and drink the kool-aid. Bye.
 
We need to look up that "test", which was conducted a few years back. Students were separated into the traditional six pac group & Cessna 172's with the Garmin 1000. The Garmin 1000 students began with navigation on day one. The outcome, ended with the "glass panel" students receiving their PPLs with substantially less hours than the six packers.

If I remember the same test, they switched instrumentation types to get their instrument rating, and the G1000 group severely struggled in the 6 pack.

I hope you never need partial panel when flying IFR in actual IMC.

It doesnt really matter who got to a certificate with less hours. Hours don't mean a thing. Its the quality of the training and quality worthwhile experience that matters.
 
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If I remember the same test, they switched instrumentation types to get their instrument rating, and the G1000 group severely struggled in the 6 pack.

I hope you never need partial panel when flying IFR in actual IMC.

It doesnt really matter who got to a certificate with less hours. Hours don't mean a thing. Its the quality of the training and quality worthwhile experience that matters.

My first G1000 experience (DA-40) wasn't overwhelming. I didn't know as much as I do now about the presentation display and all the tools available, but I could have easily flown the aircraft with the 10 min introduction I had (and did fly actually). I'd like to think my videogame flight sim background helped. I pre-briefed the specific target numbers (instead of speed range ie 65-75 on final as found in many POHs) and aimed for those target numbers on climbout and in the landing pattern.
 
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If I remember the same test, they switched instrumentation types to get their instrument rating, and the G1000 group severely struggled in the 6 pack.
A controlled study over a couple of years was conducted by Dr. Paul Craig at Middle Tennessee State University, one of the top aviation programs in the country. They used two sets of Diamond DA40's and Frasca FTD's -- one with G1000's and the other with traditional 6-packs, but otherwise identical. The results showed little difference in time to completion for a combined PP/IR program, and little difference in time to cross-train to the other package after completion. The work is documented in a refereed journal -- probably the Collegiate Aviation Review.
 
The rub is questioning a group that has convinced themselves that they are just so damn good that a maximum level of safety in 2012 can be achieved with just the basics.

Who said that? Nobody I saw...
 
LOL- Count on Ted to :stirpot:.

I'm not even sure if the original question has been answered. Perhaps we just took the circuitous route there?

I guess in aviation terms that would be the DME arc with an endless Procedure Turn.
 
The rub is questioning a group that has convinced themselves that they are just so damn good that a maximum level of safety in 2012 can be achieved with just the basics.
I am reminded of the Larson cartoon of the Cow saying, "It's not me. It's the rest of the herd"

Seriously, it's a bad debate tool to personally insult ("so damn good") the other side. It's actually penalty points at formal debate....which is as it should be.

You're still not getting the difference between CAPABILITY and SAFETY. And, in the end, you're probably flying a piston single, and that is the greatest limitation to Capability, in any case. What the pilot DOES with capability might or might not create safety; that depends on judgement.

And looking at the roster of posters who have commented, there's in excess of 50,000 hours who are not convinced that the tools make safety.
 
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I'm not even sure if the original question has been answered. Perhaps we just took the circuitous route there?
My answer is no, it's not cheating and there's nothing wrong with technology, but, if you watched the video, how are you going to step back a level or two in automation if the highest level is the only thing you know?
 
I have had the opportunity to watch how crews interact in sim. It's amazing. Pair a senior captain in the left seat with a younger FO. Overload the crew. If the FO is flying he wants the captain to reprogram. The captain is thinking, "no, I need to move a level DOWN in automation" as he starts to hit the keypad(s), or maybe takes control and moves it down.

When the Captain is the FP(flying), he steps down the automation and the FO is thinking, "I could'a had that reprogrammed by now.....

I've watched this several times. The gulf is between the mid 50s set and the 30-40 year old set.

It's not about the toys/tools/glass. It's about how the crews relate to the tools. I really enjoyed the blog of the Quantas check airman who dryly observed, duing the uncontained #2 failure: "Well, we have some power on #1 which we cant' control. None on #2. Controllable power on 3, and 4. We weight XXY. Never mind the 400 messages, we might make it to the runway but not by much."

I do agree, how are you going to step down a level if you've never been there?
 
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