StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
This doesn't jive with what I've been told by people who were working the ramp at the time, nor does it jive with the conversations recorded on tower and ground frequencies.
Bittersweet day, another crash at CRQ.
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This doesn't jive with what I've been told by people who were working the ramp at the time, nor does it jive with the conversations recorded on tower and ground frequencies.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
BTW, Live ATC has the recordings. 11/19 0000-0030z
You can hear all his calls starting pretty early in the tower recording. Somewhere around 14min is where he attempts to land on the cart, shortly after he talks to ground. It's not until around 20min in where you hear the ground controller react and tower to close the airport.
You can hear all his calls starting pretty early in the tower recording. Somewhere around 14min is where he attempts to land on the cart, shortly after he talks to ground. It's not until around 20min in where you hear the ground controller react and tower to close the airport.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
Also, there are video cameras all over that building, and I know at least some of them link to the tower. I'm about 99% sure this entire thing is on video somewhere start to finish, but those videos are likely in the hands of the NTSB right now.
Doesn't matter, the lap belt will still hold. If they had the ability to get out of the help, they had the ability to roll off the throttle and shut down the helicopter.
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Velocity173
http://www.10news.com/news/men-killed-in-palomar-chopper-crash-idd?autoplay=true
AS350. Left yaw rate gives it away.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm sure the truth is out there and will be easily identified/cause determined. Right now there is waaaaay too much misinformation. From the type of helo involved to the pilot involved.
I have seen people on 3 different boards claim to know for certain who the pilot was......and those claims include both the experienced guy and the low time PP from Montana.
It's all irrelevant, the only two people involved in the event are dead because they evacuated a running helicopter.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, this keeps getting more and more interesting....
That wreckage is indeed an AS350 with the N-number N711BE
Also shown here:
Here is the 407 that shows registration N711BE:
FAA Prelim calls it a Bell 407.
http://www.asias.faa.gov/pls/apex/f?p=100:96:::::P96_ENTRY_DATE,P96_FATAL_FLG:19-NOV-15,YES
If you look it up on Flight Aware, it shows as a 2013 Bell 407:
http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N711BE
If you look it up in the FAA database, N711BE is reserved by a Bruce Allen Erickson with a Montana address.....which is NOT the high time very experienced Bruce Allen Erickson.
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N711BE
What are the odds of two different helicopters with the same N-number and two pilots with the exact same name?
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
But we don't actually know that is what they did. That is what some 'witness' claimed to have happened, but if there is anything that this accident shows is how many people can claim to know what happened and who was involved and be wrong.
However it went wrong, they're dead.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
No kidding.
I'm still wondering why the no one cut the engine. Dead or unconscious makes more sense, and in the one video clip I saw, I didn't see anyone get out, but you would think a landing hard enough to incapacitate or kill them would have at least knocked the tail off on impact.
The NTSB report on this should be interesting.
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I'm still wondering why the no one cut the engine. Dead or unconscious makes more sense, and in the one video clip I saw, I didn't see anyone get out, but you would think a landing hard enough to incapacitate or kill them would have at least knocked the tail off on impact.
Could have been injured. Like these guys:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x219-KtdgkQ
Right, that helo crashed and the pilots were incapacitated, I can understand that. But that's not what this picture is being painted as.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
That is seriously weird.
It's so weird it's suspiciously weird, like spy **** or WoD level weird.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
As I pointed out....you seem hung up on prelim details that may or may not be accurate (there are already some inconsistencies).
The 'picture being painted' is being done by many people simply throwing buckets of paint on a canvass.
But as StinkBug pointed out, the area is well covered by security cameras. I am fairly sure that between the video that the NTSB already has and the coroner reports, the truth will eventually be known.
I'm not hung on anything, I'm confused, and the only info I have is the video, and post 42's reference to the live communication feed, neither of which leave me with the impression of a landing hard enough to incapacitate someone. That is why I was amazed at the condition of the helo in the video. I have seen helicopters crash down hard enough to incapacitate people, and they did not end up sitting upright and spinning with the tail attached and a nice balanced rotating assembly. I have seen dynamic roll over on take off, nobody incapacitated, engine got shut down, fire extinguishers discharged as the pilot climbed out.
The video fits the tail strike while taking off, and with that the only way I see in this video they could have been killed in that scenario is by getting out with t running, but I don't see that either, although it could have been prior and they got hit by the tail or a low swoop of a blade tip.
As I said, it's just confusing at this moment.
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Cutting the throttle on a turbine helo isn't as simple as pulling the mixture on a piston. As violently as this aircraft is spinning. He might not have been able to unlatch the throttle from idle to off or couldn't reach the fuel valve handle. Or panic ensued after the initial contact.
Around 40 seconds something starts happening up front, but the video on You Tube isn't clear enough to make it out.
orange
Line Up and Wait
OP,
Despite the other events, congrats on passing the checkride.
Despite the other events, congrats on passing the checkride.
Or even a heart attack. Just have to wait for more info, but man this is one of the strangest things I've seen in a while.
Stingray Don
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Video from a different vantage point but doesn't really shed any more light on what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es8Xnok0HS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es8Xnok0HS8
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Velocity173
Oh it's just RW aviation. Stuff happens. If this is the classic dynamic rollover situation, it's not all that uncommon. Snag a skid on the platform, panic with too much collective, aircraft rolls, blades contact asphalt, tail rotor drive shaft gets severed, aircraft spins violently.
More rare would be ground resonance. I'd probably rule that out in this case though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0FeXjhUEXlc
Right, but when was the last time you saw people in the helicopter die in one of those? I've seen two roll overs on take off, and the occupants climbed out of both.
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Right, but when was the last time you saw people in the helicopter die in one of those? I've seen two roll overs on take off, and the occupants climbed out of both.
I know of one personally who has a TBI from a blade imbalance on an AH-64. I also know of a pilot who was literally shaken to death during a UH-60 blade imbalance. My point wasn't to suggest ground resonance caused this since I already stated I don't believe that was the case. It was only to suggest that when it comes to RW, there are accidents that happen during modes of flight where you think you'd be safe.
This is a pretty good spin here. To say that it should have been survivable is to not understand the violence of the situation. .I had a friend who died in a crash not unlike this one. By looks of the accident you'd think it would be completely survivable. Because of his age, the blunt force trauma of being thrown around the cockpit created a brain hemorrhage / swelling while his younger student survived with minor injuries.
I don't shake my head and wonder how one could die from this. Whether it be blunt force trauma or the fire, the mechanism was there.
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly. Like I mentioned earlier, the eyewitness accounts of the pilots in the WILLIAM P LAWRENCE accident were like rag dolls as soon as the blade broke. Nothing they could have done and they may very well have been dead before the helo rolled over the side.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's what it looks like and perhaps what started the story that they were intentionally trying to egress. I suspect that it was just the forces on the aircraft tearing things apart at that point.
Yeah, around 40 seconds you can see something white/bluish out the right front, but the video quality doesn't let me distinguish anything further.
I understand they are rotating fast, and I understand the forces involved, but you can clearly see there is no balance issue in the drive line, and to spin at that rate, requires a pretty high power setting to be maintained which you can hear. You can't say this one doesn't strike you as odd. The forces I saw in the video are not lethal without a freak circumstance.
Lachlan
En-Route
Sounds like someone at the helo registration desk issued the same N-number to the guys with the same names. Clerical error. Probably thought he moved and got a new chopper, or entered the name in the computer and it generated the same number because it was already in existance. ??? Sad about the fatalities.
cwoods798
Pre-Flight
All of the arm chair quarter-backing on this thread is really a shame, especially when more than half of the posts are from pilots that have no experience flying turbine aircraft..much less a turbine helicopter. Maybe we should just wait to read official reports before judging these men on what they did or didn't do correctly.
SkyDog58
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I agree but that would be out of character for some.
SixPapaCharlie
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Everyone speculates in his or her own mind as to what the cause or chain of events was that leads to a poor outcome.
Not unusual on POA for those speculations to be shared.
We all do it. You have speculations as to how it might have happened.
Right or wrong, we tend to share those here.
Everyone knows the NTSB report will reveal the "truth" but part of a flying community is discussing what might have happened in a flying accident until we get the "official" info.
What have you considered as probable links in this particular chain?
I'm certain you have some thoughts on it.
Turningfinal
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Someone on another forum calculated the rotational speed of the helicopter and translated it to G forces at the seat.
11Gs. For 8 minutes.
I'm not a physics expert but maybe somebody else can confirm, using RPM and distance from mast to seats. If the numbers work out, I can certainly seeing that force being fatal.
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cwoods798
Pre-Flight
If I was going to speculate on what happened based on what I have read in the news and have seen in the video...They were landing on a cart that was not chocked and when they made contact with the cart, the cart started to roll forward and the pilot increased the collective pitch without applying forward cyclic resulting in the cart essentially rolling out from under them and the tail striking the ground. Without a tail rotor, and the throttle still being in flight idle, the aircraft experienced an extreme amount of torque with no way to counter its effects except to bring the throttle past the detent and cut fuel to the engine. As to what actually killed the crew, I have no idea. No matter what happened or what the pilot may have done right or wrong, my prayers are with the families. Wasn't trying to be a jackass with my last post, I just hate to see comments mentioning "these guys are recipients of the darwin award" and others like that. They are dead, and they shared the same passion as all of us do...we can atleast show some respect.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
So I saw a video today of this incident starting about 2 minutes before rotation started. I'm gonna try not to make any judgments or speculation because all I know about helicopters is what I have viewed from the outside at the airport.
When the video started the helicopter was already hovering 2-3' off the ground, and it appeared that he was trying to land on the rolling dolley thing. With the questions about the pilots identity I cant speak with any authority on his experience level, but in the video he was definitely not stable. It was a calm day with light winds so you would expect the aircraft to be quite still in the air but it was moving around quite a bit, like someone who was either inexperienced with the aircraft or inexperienced in general and simply putting in too much input and overcorrecting. This lasted a couple minutes before there was a very quick pitch forward then back striking the tail rotor and immediately starting the spin. From there it spun quite a ways across the ramp before stabilizing into the fairly stationary spin we see in all the other videos.
Watching that video I'm glad for several things. I'm friends with some of the guys who work the ramp at CRQ. Often they are on the ramp marshalling helicopters in. Had someone been in front of them, they would be dead. When the tail struck it spun and moved straight forward in an instant. Second, all this happened right next to the parked fuel truck. Don't think I need to say more on that.
When the video started the helicopter was already hovering 2-3' off the ground, and it appeared that he was trying to land on the rolling dolley thing. With the questions about the pilots identity I cant speak with any authority on his experience level, but in the video he was definitely not stable. It was a calm day with light winds so you would expect the aircraft to be quite still in the air but it was moving around quite a bit, like someone who was either inexperienced with the aircraft or inexperienced in general and simply putting in too much input and overcorrecting. This lasted a couple minutes before there was a very quick pitch forward then back striking the tail rotor and immediately starting the spin. From there it spun quite a ways across the ramp before stabilizing into the fairly stationary spin we see in all the other videos.
Watching that video I'm glad for several things. I'm friends with some of the guys who work the ramp at CRQ. Often they are on the ramp marshalling helicopters in. Had someone been in front of them, they would be dead. When the tail struck it spun and moved straight forward in an instant. Second, all this happened right next to the parked fuel truck. Don't think I need to say more on that.
Wait, they spun there for eight minutes? It was side loading Gs, but there is a chance for that to leave them brain dead.
ktup-flyer
En-Route
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
I don't know if it was 8, but it was definitely several minutes. Long enough for local fire crews to arrive from off airport fire stations. (airport rescue was on site as well)