Bittersweet day, another crash at CRQ.

It was side loading Gs...
Not if you're considering the 11g for 8 minute problem. That's based on centripetal acceleration and would be eyeballs-out (forward) in the cockpit. It was a very dynamic environment and simple linear acceleration assumptions are no more valid at this point than is it to assume there's a pony in here.

Nauga,
SMH.
 
Not if you're considering the 11g for 8 minute problem. That's based on centripetal acceleration and would be eyeballs-out (forward) in the cockpit. It was a very dynamic environment and simple linear acceleration assumptions are no more valid at this point than is it to assume there's a pony in here.

Nauga,
SMH.

Yeah, I understand, although the forward 'eye bugging' vector is not one that particularly starves the brain unless the body and head get reclined somehow. But even still, yeah, 8 minutes at 11 G has the potential to do a lot of damage if you aren't positioned for it. An aneurism I would expect likely.
 
Not if you're considering the 11g for 8 minute problem. That's based on centripetal acceleration and would be eyeballs-out (forward) in the cockpit. It was a very dynamic environment and simple linear acceleration assumptions are no more valid at this point than is it to assume there's a pony in here.

Nauga,
SMH.
Oh come on Nauga, you of all people should know you can't fly a helicopter without pony in it!

I thought that was the primary mission of all helicopters.

FT
Who relies on the whirly things to bring him his mail
 
So I got to work today and had someone help me out with the math.

We looked at a few videos of the spinning and calculated a rotation every 1 to 1.5 seconds.

1 rotation per 1.5 seconds is 40 RPM. 1 rotation per second is 60 RPM.

Looking at an AS350 CAD drawing we have, we calculated 110" from center of the mast to approximately the pilots seating position.

Assuming 40RPM on the low end, you're looking at 5g. With 60RPM on the upper end, it's 11g.

Either way, its a ride I wouldn't want to be along for.
 
Assuming 40RPM on the low end, you're looking at 5g. With 60RPM on the upper end, it's 11g.

Either way, its a ride I wouldn't want to be along for.

I have this memory from childhood of being spun on a tire swing. Pretty sure it was nowhere near 5G, was not violent at all, but I definitely couldn't have reached out, accurately selected a control and moved it the right way. All I could do was hold on. If they were getting tossed around at somewhere between 5 and 11G even assuming they could stay perfectly conscious I think it's a stretch to say they could be expected to shut down the engine.
 
Another video, different angle. The tail rotor is already gone and the spin has begun. Video shows 4 minutes of spinning before the tail boom breaks off and main rotors strike the ground.

Puts a little extra caution in my mind as I go for a first lesson in the R22 on Monday.

http://youtu.be/dJ8lY3-_xA4


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Another video, different angle. The tail rotor is already gone and the spin has begun. Video shows 4 minutes of spinning before the tail boom breaks off and main rotors strike the ground.

Puts a little extra caution in my mind as I go for a first lesson in the R22 on Monday.

http://youtu.be/dJ8lY3-_xA4


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I count about 30 rpm on that video that syncs with a sound track, and I figure their position is no further than 6' from the mast, according to this calculator that is 1.84G.:dunno:
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal

Looks like it takes 75 RPM to make 11G.
 
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Another video, different angle. The tail rotor is already gone and the spin has begun. Video shows 4 minutes of spinning before the tail boom breaks off and main rotors strike the ground.

Puts a little extra caution in my mind as I go for a first lesson in the R22 on Monday.

http://youtu.be/dJ8lY3-_xA4


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I heard it said that the R-22 is a trainer for the AS350.
 
Don't mind healthy speculation but when we start assigning blame and nominations for Darwin Award based on a short clip and no knowledge whatsoever about what these guys went through I draw the line. RIP for the crew and if they made a mistake then hope others may learn from it.


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Another video, different angle. The tail rotor is already gone and the spin has begun. Video shows 4 minutes of spinning before the tail boom breaks off and main rotors strike the ground.

Puts a little extra caution in my mind as I go for a first lesson in the R22 on Monday.

http://youtu.be/dJ8lY3-_xA4


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Looks like there is a body lower left in that video.

Instinct might be to get the flip out...unfastened the belts and thrown from the aircraft.

No doubt couldn't reach fuel cutoff unless you were very fast to get it cutoff initially. Belt unbuckle might be more doable...but just as fatal if g loads in above are accurate.

Other videos seems like there might possibly be bodies thrown outside.

Very hard to tell....with the video quality.
 
I heard it said that the R-22 is a trainer for the AS350.

They say the R-22 is a "trainer" for all other helis -- it's considered hard/twitchy enough to fly that all others are a cake walk. Having started with and gotten my rating on the 22, I can confirm the R-44 and CBM-300 are significantly easier, but I humbly defer to the more experienced folks here for other types.
 
Looks like there is a body lower left in that video.

Instinct might be to get the flip out...unfastened the belts and thrown from the aircraft.

No doubt couldn't reach fuel cutoff unless you were very fast to get it cutoff initially. Belt unbuckle might be more doable...but just as fatal if g loads in above are accurate.

Other videos seems like there might possibly be bodies thrown outside.

Very hard to tell....with the video quality.

I saw a video with sound, and in it there is a voice that states something like, "someone just came out" several times. In another video right after the tail departs and before all the smoke it looks like a body was thrown out.

And yes, hard to tell due to the quality of the videos.
 
I saw a video with sound, and in it there is a voice that states something like, "someone just came out" several times. In another video right after the tail departs and before all the smoke it looks like a body was thrown out.

And yes, hard to tell due to the quality of the videos.
There is an eyewitness account posted on another board (he was about 100 feet away and unfortunately saw the whole thing). It does sound like they were likely not conscious and possibly even deceased after it hit. And at least one may have been ejected while it was spinning.
 
Looks to me like he wasn't totally over the cart when he tried to touch down. I don't see the cart moving much. Regardless guys, very tragic. RIP.

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Yep, looks like they were on the edge of the cart, over controlled and slammed the tail past the limits of the tail stinger. 407 stinger is rated at 400 lbs in the vertical so I imagine the Astar is similar. Bad deal all around.
 
The comments people make after watching someone die amaze me. How can someone be so ****ing callous and stupid?

:mad:
 
The comments people make after watching someone die amaze me. How can someone be so ****ing callous and stupid?

:mad:

I saw only one callous comment in this entire thread. Everyone else is trying to understand the situation and provide input as to how the accident happened.

Don't know why people get so spun up on speculation. We're pilots and as pilots you should be inquisitive when it comes to accidents. As long as it's done in a tactful manner, nothing wrong with speculation.
 
I saw only one callous comment in this entire thread. Everyone else is trying to understand the situation and provide input as to how the accident happened.

Don't know why people get so spun up on speculation. We're pilots and as pilots you should be inquisitive when it comes to accidents. As long as it's done in a tactful manner, nothing wrong with speculation.

Sorry, I meant the comments on YouTube, not in this thread.
 
Sorry, I meant the comments on YouTube, not in this thread.

Yeah, sometimes I think YouTube is filled with a bunch of loonies. Just wonder where some of those idiots comes from.
 
Wish there was some way to view without signing in...
 
Another video, different angle. The tail rotor is already gone and the spin has begun. Video shows 4 minutes of spinning before the tail boom breaks off and main rotors strike the ground.

Puts a little extra caution in my mind as I go for a first lesson in the R22 on Monday.

http://youtu.be/dJ8lY3-_xA4


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I recognize a couple of the voices in that video, pretty sure I know who filmed it.


Video of the hover, attempted cart landing, and resultant tail strike.

http://youtu.be/HKyzBIuvF30


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That's the video I saw on Thursday.
 
That is seriously weird.
So, apparently the same guy owned both. He was an experienced pilot and owned the 407 and then bought the AStar and had the tail number carried over (the BE for Bruce Erickson). He was allegedly low time in the AStar.
 
This really is sad circumstance....cant imagine if it is 11g that conscience would last long...I was a witness(One of three) to an early UH-60 Blackhawk crash prior to spindle change on the blades. The Aircraft chunked a blade at 400 ft. The only consolation was the Aeromed Docs said the violence of the rotational vibration incapacitated the crew instantly and prior to impact....for some reason I don't know why that made it better...watching that video has brought back those images from 30 years ago...
 
This really is sad circumstance....cant imagine if it is 11g that conscience would last long...I was a witness(One of three) to an early UH-60 Blackhawk crash prior to spindle change on the blades. The Aircraft chunked a blade at 400 ft. The only consolation was the Aeromed Docs said the violence of the rotational vibration incapacitated the crew instantly and prior to impact....for some reason I don't know why that made it better...watching that video has brought back those images from 30 years ago...

Probably retired by now but I worked with that IP's son at Rucker. Actually had cracks in our blade pins when I was a student and grounded us for days. Manufacturer was cutting corners and not heat treating the pins properly.
 
I was at Runkle in a UH-1 when it happened...
 
NTSB prelim has been released.......


This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On November 18, 2015, about 1624 Pacific standard time, an Airbus Helicopters AS350B3E, N711BE, departed controlled flight while landing on a moveable helipad at Mc Clellan-Palomar Airport, Carlsbad, California. The pilot, who was the owner, was operating the helicopter under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The private pilot and private pilot-rated passenger were fatally injured; the helicopter sustained substantial damage. The local personal flight departed Carlsbad at 1411. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed.

The entire accident sequence was captured on airport security cameras and the mobile phone cameras of multiple witnesses.

The helicopter departed earlier in the day from the east end of the Premier Jet fixed base operator (FBO) ramp, which was located midfield on the south side of runway 6/24. After departure, line crew moved the helipad to the west end of the ramp.

Upon returning, the helicopter approached the airport from the northeast and was cleared to land on runway 24. It descended to midfield, turned left, and approached the ramp in a low hover via taxiway A3. The helicopter then followed taxiway A and began an approach to the helipad from the east and into the direction of the sun. The helicopter then landed short of the helipad, with the center of its skids making contact with the pad's front edge. The helicopter immediately rocked back and its tailskid struck the ground. The helicopter then began a series of back and forth oscillations, and the helipad broke free from the rear left chock, rotated to the right, and pivoted around its front right wheel. The helicopter spun with the helipad for the first quarter of the turn, and then rapidly climbed and rotated 270 degrees to the right. The helipad came to rest to the north, having revolved 180 degrees, and about 50 seconds later the helicopter landed on the tarmac east of the helipad, while partially straddling taxiway A and the ramp at a 45-degree angle.

For the next 2 1/2 minutes line crew re-secured the helipad, installing chocks on three of the four wheels. The helicopter then repositioned for an approach to the helipad from the west. During the next 4 1/2 minutes the helicopter made three landing attempts, getting to within 5 to 20 ft of the helipad. A video of the final landing attempt was captured by a witness, who was located about 130 ft south. He had observed the other landing attempts and was concerned that the helicopter may crash, so positioned himself behind a car at the corner of the FBO's hangar.

The video revealed that the helicopter again landed short of the pad, similar to the first landing attempt, rocking back and forth twice onto its tailskid. After the final strike, the helicopter pitched violently forward and out of view behind the hangar. Security cameras revealed that from here the helicopter spun 180 degrees to the left, and after reaching a 45-degree nose up attitude, the aft tailrotor and vertical stabilizer assembly struck the ground and separated. The helicopter bounced and rotated another 360 degrees before landing hard on its left side. Once on the ground, the main rotor blades and cabin continued to spin with the engine still running. The helicopter continued spinning for the next 5 minutes and 10 seconds while slowly sliding about 530 ft east along the ramp. The tailboom and horizontal stabilizer then separated and the helicopter rolled onto its side, shedding the main rotor blades. The engine continued operating for another 30 seconds while fire crew doused the helicopter. White smoke billowed from the engine's exhaust after the helicopter came to rest, but there was no indication of fire.

The pilot purchased the helicopter on October 29, 2015, but had flown demonstration and familiarization flights in it since September 20. According to the helicopter's maintenance records, those flights totaled about 8.8 hours, and were all conducted with a certified flight instructor present. He received an additional 2 hours of flight training on November 13.

According to friends and flight instructors who had flown with the pilot, he had previously owned a Bell 407, and the accident flight was the first he had flown in the AS350 series without a professional pilot present.
 
This really is sad circumstance....cant imagine if it is 11g that conscience would last long...I was a witness(One of three) to an early UH-60 Blackhawk crash prior to spindle change on the blades. The Aircraft chunked a blade at 400 ft. The only consolation was the Aeromed Docs said the violence of the rotational vibration incapacitated the crew instantly and prior to impact....for some reason I don't know why that made it better...watching that video has brought back those images from 30 years ago...

It doesn't work out to 11g it works out to 1.8g, see calculator I linked above. If they got knocked out, it would have been on forward impact after coming off the trailer.
 
It doesn't work out to 11g it works out to 1.8g, see calculator I linked above.
Unburdened by real data you can make it "work out" to whatever you want. How does an eyeball estimate of the distance from the mast to the pilot station (in feet) and a count of revs to the nearest 1/min give you 0.1g precision?

Nauga,
who knows the difference between precision and accuracy
 
So he had a tailstrike, landed and then took off again.

I guess that happens if you have to make that critical vaccine delivery.
 
Unburdened by real data you can make it "work out" to whatever you want. How does an eyeball estimate of the distance from the mast to the pilot station (in feet) and a count of revs to the nearest 1/min give you 0.1g precision?

Nauga,
who knows the difference between precision and accuracy

The station position is pretty easy to closely estimate by visual reference. The speed of rotation you can count at 2 seconds.:dunno: The margin of error wouldn't even make it over 2.2G, and the arm is probably less than 6', not greater.
 
So he had a tailstrike, landed and then took off again.

I don't think that is exactly what happened. From the video I saw, it looked like the tail strike happened as he was trying to lift off again from an awkward landing on the platform. From liftoff to tailstrike to spinning on the ground occurred over the span of a couple seconds.
 
The station position is pretty easy to closely estimate by visual reference...
and yet differs significantly from what someone else posted as pulled from a CAD drawing of a similar helicopter. You're guessing, giving it a measure of both accuracy and precision that are entirely unwarranted, and drawing conclusions from that 'analysis'

Nauga,
and a little Swiss cheese
 
I don't think that is exactly what happened. From the video I saw, it looked like the tail strike happened as he was trying to lift off again from an awkward landing on the platform. From liftoff to tailstrike to spinning on the ground occurred over the span of a couple seconds.

He had 2 tail strikes, the first one he took back off and they resecured the pad, then he came back around again, hit it the second time which is when they launched forward into the crash.
 
and yet differs significantly from what someone else posted as pulled from a CAD drawing of a similar helicopter. You're guessing, giving it a measure of both accuracy and precision that are entirely unwarranted, and drawing conclusions from that 'analysis'

Nauga,
and a little Swiss cheese

Ok, here are the drawings from AS: image.gif

If I measure thetail rotor diameter distance forward from the mast, I am measuring closer to a meter than two to the forward seat position. :dunno: This isn't a big helicopter.
 
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