Because I Said So, That's Why

MAKG1 said:
I guess I'm spoiled, but almost all the local GA airports here are pretty easy to identify from pattern altitude.

http://goo.gl/maps/dC11c
http://goo.gl/maps/e3Tf0
http://goo.gl/maps/tHsy7
http://goo.gl/maps/TIbw8
http://goo.gl/maps/zZ9B4
http://goo.gl/maps/pazd6

Is it that different in Florida? It seems like such a simple solution.
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It does help, but I would say that painting the airport name across a taxiway is alot more common out west than on the east coast. Not sure why that is.
 
The reason should be obvious. It's because the west-coast pilots need it.:rofl:

Fearless Tower said:
It does help, but I would say that painting the airport name across a taxiway is alot more common out west than on the east coast. Not sure why that is.
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Sac Arrow said:
Well YOU people have to number your damn freeway exits!
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Yeah, well down in Puerto Rico, there must be one really BIG town in the middle of the island called Salida, because every exit on the whole island apparently goes there!! Simple enough!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Keith Lane said:
Yeah, well down in Puerto Rico, there must be one really BIG town in the middle of the island called Salida, because every exit on the whole island apparently goes there!! Simple enough!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Where is Salida? I thought the only off islands with airports were Vieques and Culebra?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Where is Salida?
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In Colorado.

api
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I thought it was because our airports are more than ten miles apart, separated by 10k hills, and had pattern altitudes that are considered high altitude transit altitudes for Easterners. :dunno:
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Plus what's the point in naming them when people can't read anyway?
 
Mafoo said:
All of them however are uncontrolled. I dial in traffic for each one, ask for a mic check, and get nothing.
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You continue to talk about this "mike check," as if it will magically help you somehow. How?

If you are so lost and unfit to navigate, you might find some help on the radio. But it would be by declaring an emergency on 121.5, and then do as you are told, without the illogical argument you display on this forum.
 
Keith Lane said:
Yeah, well down in Puerto Rico, there must be one really BIG town in the middle of the island called Salida, because every exit on the whole island apparently goes there!! Simple enough!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Sac Arrow said:
Where is Salida? I thought the only off islands with airports were Vieques and Culebra?
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Apparently more than one Spanish speaking region has a town with that name. And numbered exits too!
Dunno if Salida has an aeropuerto though.

:wink2:
 

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kgruber said:
You continue to talk about this "mike check," as if it will magically help you somehow. How?

If you are so lost and unfit to navigate, you might find some help on the radio. But it would be by declaring an emergency on 121.5, and then do as you are told, without the illogical argument you display on this forum.
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From my last post at the top of this page:

"I am just a student without all the answers, so no need to go into how the mic check was a bad idea. That's been explained to me, and it's not something I would do."
 
Mafoo said:
From my last post at the top of this page:

"I am just a student without all the answers, so no need to go into how the mic check was a bad idea. That's been explained to me, and it's not something I would do."
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Hang in there brother.

I've been in decompression mode for the last couple of weeks. First thread I clicked on was this one. It has done me well to step away from the keyboard for a couple of weeks.

Oh - and there is no better country in the world than the land of the brave and the home of the free. SO VERY GLAD to be home for a few days. :yesnod:
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Hang in there brother.

I've been in decompression mode for the last couple of weeks. First thread I clicked on was this one. It has done me well to step away from the keyboard for a couple of weeks.

Oh - and there is no better country in the world than the land of the brave and the home of the free. SO VERY GLAD to be home for a few days. :yesnod:
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Good to see you home my friend.

I asked my CFI if I could turn the plane off and exit durring a solo XC, and he preferred I didn't, because he doesn't want to come get me if it won't start back up. He must be worried I will forget the master switch :).

Anyway I asked, so I could see about meeting you somewhere for lunch one of these days. I will ask again, and see what he says.

How long are you back for?
 
FROM THE OP's Original Post:

"To the (soon to be) crusty crowd, how about a well thought out rational explanation? The one you're using doesn't seem to be working. At least every 2-3 months there will be another argument discussion on PoA over using GPS only and as I see it, your legacy of 'learn something other than GPS' will be soon be lost."

Simply, because SH*T happens in the aircraft and you need to have the tools and capability and backup to use as many available resources you can to survive.
 
Mafoo said:
I asked my CFI if I could turn the plane off and exit durring a solo XC, and he preferred I didn't, because he doesn't want to come get me if it won't start back up.
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:confused:

What does he think you're going to do when you are no longer a student? Never get out of the airplane? Wait, I guess it wouldn't be his problem then.

Sure there is a chance the airplane won't start, just like there's a chance your car won't start. But it sounds like a pretty strange thing to be worried about.
 
DutchessFlier said:
Simply, because SH*T happens in the aircraft and you need to have the tools and capability and backup to use as many available resources you can to survive.
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Can you please point out a single individual on this forum, that doesn't agree with that statement?

That's the problem with these conversations. Some people talk about GPS, and others some how infer that it means they know less, or somehow feel knowing every other form of navigation is less important.

I have not heard a single person on this forum imply that.
 
Everskyward said:
:confused:

What does he think you're going to do when you are no longer a student? Never get out of the airplane? Wait, I guess it wouldn't be his problem then.

Sure there is a chance the airplane won't start, just like there's a chance your car won't start. But it sounds like a pretty strange thing to be worried about.
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Yea, I went flying this weekend, and no one was at the school. I know where the key is, and he just let me go in and do everything by myself.

I just did an hour in the training area, and some T&G's and put everything away, and texted him.

The only thing he said back, was "did you turn the master switch off".

He must of had a student in the past make that mistake. I can see as it's there only 172, that if a student does such a thing, they lose there source of revenue for the rest of the day (if they had lessons after me).
 
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Everskyward said:
Sure there is a chance the airplane won't start, just like there's a chance your car won't start.
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I'm sure it's nothing for a pilot of your experience. But I remember how I stopped at Sonora, TX (SOA). Filled her up at self-serve, and of course the fuel-injected Lycoming won't start. There was not a soul in sight, no hangars, no nothing. Woo-hoo. Since I weren't a student anymore, I added 2 and 2 and got it going by flooding it and using the flooded start procedure, after a few tries. But if that happened on my long XC, I might've had a stroke from enxiety.
 
zaitcev said:
I'm sure it's nothing for a pilot of your experience. But I remember how I stopped at Sonora, TX (SOA). Filled her up at self-serve, and of course the fuel-injected Lycoming won't start. There was not a soul in sight, no hangars, no nothing. Woo-hoo. Since I weren't a student anymore, I added 2 and 2 and got it going by flooding it and using the flooded start procedure, after a few tries. But if that happened on my long XC, I might've had a stroke from enxiety.
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But a better solution would have been teaching the student how to start an engine which is still warm. If you don't learn as a student what's going to happen when you are on your own?
 
Everskyward said:
But a better solution would have been teaching the student how to start an engine which is still warm. If you don't learn as a student what's going to happen when you are on your own?
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That and fueling. Although it sounds stupid, I never fueled a plane (not that its hard) before I purchased my own. The fueling wasn't difficult, just the stupid card reader and having to estimate in dollars or gallons amount to put in prior to fueling. Since it doesn't show the cost per gallon at the pump, figured on estimating fill up in gallons instead of dollars.
 
Mafoo said:
The only thing he said back, was "did you turn the master switch off".

He must of had a student in the past make that mistake. I can see as it's there only 172, that if a student does such a thing, they lose there source of revenue for the rest of the day (if they had lessons after me).
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It's not just the lost revenue for the rest of the day. A battery that discharges slowly and completely gets so heavily sulfated that it will not completely recover when recharged and its performance and life are reduced. Do that twice and it's pretty much done. A 12-volt battery costs well over $100, a 24-volt one is $400 or more.

As well, a master left on usually has the alternator field energized, too, and since it isn't generating nor turning, that field is getting max current, with no cooling airflow, and gets pretty hot. The varnish insulation on the coil wires burns off and the wires can short. That toasts the alternator. $500 or better. Plus labor for fixing all these things, too.

I've had students do this too many times. We had checklists for good reasons, and when they didn't use the checklist they did stuff like that.

Dan
 
Everskyward said:
Sure there is a chance the airplane won't start, just like there's a chance your car won't start. But it sounds like a pretty strange thing to be worried about.
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I never worried about it either, until it happened to me at Lake Lawn. Failed starter, my friend and I even tried hand-propping it, to no avail. I've written about that adventure before on this forum. For about 5 years after that, every time I flew somewhere off the beaten path, I would get that nervous, jumping stomach feeling when I got back in the plane for the return flight. I would only breathe easy after I heard the engine catch and all the gauges checked out. (And yeah, the runup was another nerves-provoking event too, though I've yet to be stranded by a failure detected during a runup.)

For some reason, all that has changed. Maybe I'm becoming more fatalistic in my old age.
 
Dan Thomas said:
We had checklists for good reasons, and when they didn't use the checklist they did stuff like that.
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This can be its own thread, but I always use a real checklist. Well, I use the foreflight checklist app, but I use something where I read what it says, and then mark it as done.

I notice every pilot I have seen fly there own plane, doesn't use a checklist. They do the preflight, but they do it from memory.

My plan is, that once I own a plane, and have my PPL, I will continue to use a checklist. It seems like a pretty minor thing to keep doing, even once I think I have memorized everything on it.

Do a lot of people continue to use checklists after they get there PPL?
 
One of my first assignments from my CFI was to create my own checklist. It made me read the POH - I copied what was in the POH and modified it to match my way of doing things (I could customize it for the exact plane I was flying - like putting a column for local frequencies and things like that.) To this day, I still do that - I put together an airplane specific checklist for every plane I fly. If I had my own, I'd probably keep a simpler scaled down checklist, but since I rent/fly 3 or 4 different aircraft I keep them a little more detailed than they really need to be.

Even if you memorize everything on it, scan over it one last time.
 
Matthew said:
One of my first assignments from my CFI was to create my own checklist. It made me read the POH - I copied what was in the POH and modified it to match my way of doing things (I could customize it for the exact plane I was flying - like putting a column for local frequencies and things like that.) To this day, I still do that - I put together an airplane specific checklist for every plane I fly. If I had my own, I'd probably keep a simpler scaled down checklist, but since I rent/fly 3 or 4 different aircraft I keep them a little more detailed than they really need to be.

Even if you memorize everything on it, scan over it one last time.
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That is a great exercise and one I have done for every plane I regularly fly.
 
Mafoo said:
This can be its own thread, but I always use a real checklist. Well, I use the foreflight checklist app, but I use something where I read what it says, and then mark it as done.

I notice every pilot I have seen fly there own plane, doesn't use a checklist. They do the preflight, but they do it from memory.

My plan is, that once I own a plane, and have my PPL, I will continue to use a checklist. It seems like a pretty minor thing to keep doing, even once I think I have memorized everything on it.

Do a lot of people continue to use checklists after they get there PPL?
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I use a checklist for every flight I do and I have my PPL. If professional pilots flying for the airlines who have flown the same plane for years upon years do it, why should I not do it. One day using the checklist may help me catch a mistake, or serious flaw in the plane that day.
 
They (we) use the check-list as a done list.

jspilot said:
I use a checklist for every flight I do and I have my PPL. If professional pilots flying for the airlines who have flown the same plane for years upon years do it, why should I not do it. One day using the checklist may help me catch a mistake, or serious flaw in the plane that day.
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I had some trouble hot starting at Big Bear during my mountain checkout, after stopping for a bio break. The instructor let me figure it out. Hint: it is NEVER correct to use full rich at 8000+ foot density altitude.
 
MAKG1 said:
I had some trouble hot starting at Big Bear during my mountain checkout, after stopping for a bio break. The instructor let me figure it out. Hint: it is NEVER correct to use full rich at 8000+ foot density altitude.
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Heh. Yeah, that's problematic. Even here at 5885' on a hot day.

Gets bad around here when someone has a carb'd airplane and they have fuel running out the bottom of the cowl and an almost dead battery.

Usually someone will start waving at them to stop it while they're walking over with a fire extinguisher in hand. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Yeah, that's problematic. Even here at 5885' on a hot day.
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You know what's strange... I put about 12 hours on an Interstage S1A with 90 hp Continental a month ago. The plane is based at 6500 ft. And yet, it is started at full rich -and- it starts from 2nd blade (has no starter). It's absolutely bulletproof. Why don't they make engines like that anymore? Well, Rotax 912 also starts well, but all the rest do not.
 
My O-470 will start full rich but then blub like a Harley with a bad carb. Prime not required, it'll just make it harder.

Best trick learned from a mechanic ever... pull the darn mixture knob out to where we fly at around here, and then hit the starter.

Fires off sooooo sweet there. Often no prime needed at all. Especially if its warm out or the engine is warm.

Mixture Rich on the checklist, dead wrong. ;)
 
Hot start, cold start, high DA....whatever.

Engines need air, fuel, spark and compression. All in the right proportion. Think about what that means for the situation and you can get any motor to fire.
 
The lecture is the same, the conditions in the lab can be more complex, with some uncertainties, unknowns and idiosyncrasies. Developing a pattern that usually works doesn't mean it will always work. A viable Plan B prior to exhausting the battery is a good thing.



Jaybird180 said:
Hot start, cold start, high DA....whatever.

Engines need air, fuel, spark and compression. All in the right proportion. Think about what that means for the situation and you can get any motor to fire.
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Mafoo said:
This can be its own thread, but I always use a real checklist. Well, I use the foreflight checklist app, but I use something where I read what it says, and then mark it as done.

I notice every pilot I have seen fly there own plane, doesn't use a checklist. They do the preflight, but they do it from memory.

My plan is, that once I own a plane, and have my PPL, I will continue to use a checklist. It seems like a pretty minor thing to keep doing, even once I think I have memorized everything on it.

Do a lot of people continue to use checklists after they get there PPL?
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You betcha. My original CFI was a former airline pilot and he drilled using the checklist, every time. BTW, that's something the DPE will be looking for on the checkride, so it's a good habit to get into.
 
Mafoo said:
Do a lot of people continue to use checklists after they get there PPL?
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I guess I never answered this one...

Yes. Absolutely.

As Wayne said, it's more a "done list" these days, especially flying the exact same aircraft almost all the time, but it's out and in hand from pre-flight to post-shutdown.

"Re-integrating" it back into my overloaded brain at the beginning of the Instrument Rating was a challenge until I had figured out where I physically wanted it placed in all the piles of real paper and other crap one is buried in, when doing single pilot IFR, and at first you're so damn far behind the airplane you just hoped you got it all from memory because you're worried to stop your scan, but time and practice get ya to where you can do it all if you keep moving.

Jesse would chuckle, "Did you run your checklist?"

My unspoken response went something like... "^^#+%**+=!!!!"

After I got my cockpit clutter issues worked out and a proper "place" for everything, that helped also. :)

I moved away from the typical laminated Cessna POH pages "flip book style" and use one of the commercial single-card ones. One co-owner likes the original flip-book and uses it every flight, the other co-owner has a different commercial one thats tabbed and colorized and bigger and has a few pages.

So there's two checklists that live in the airplane and one in a flight bag. Mostly sharing that to say that there's three "yes" votes from our airplane. :)

One word of caution about commercial checklists. I found a significant error on mine for approach speeds because I sat down with it and the POH and made sure everything printed on it was accurate. The company immediately made it right, corrected their checklists for future purchasers, and sent me a corrected version free of charge with a thank-you note. Check them over carefully if you buy one.
 
Let's put it this way.

Before I finished my certificate, I got asked to diagnose some airborne problems on the 747, in the back of the plane. I wasn't needed below 35,000 feet, so I asked to ride jumpseat for taxi, takeoff, climb, descent, and landing. PIC said OK.

The flight engineer was in charge of the checklists. They read through EVERY one of them. They also descended around R2515 at 320 KIAS, down to 8500 feet (it's a public aircraft -- that's legal). They canceled IFR on the ILS, and went through the same nontowered procedures we do for the 4:30AM landing and taxi.

The only thing different was that there was a division of labor among the three flight crew. The FE was in charge of the throttles, the captain handled the autopilots (there are three of them) and yoke, and the FO handled the radios and altitude callouts on the ILS. The captain took some instructor roles (e.g., briefing the approach, and when to flare). The FO took the yoke for landing (with a "positive transfer of controls").

All-in-all, it was a VERY informative lesson. I only wish all student pilots had such an opportunity to see first-hand how the pros do it.

So, to summarize, checklists (or "done lists") are not a student pilot thing. ATPs do it, too. More consistently if anything.
 
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Thanks guys. Good to know I would be out of the ordinary, going through a checklist on my own plane.
 
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