Because I Said So, That's Why

That's pretty much a worst case scenario, not just a GPS failure. In that case, you use any and all tools you have available, including visual, VOR, GPS, and 121.5 to get found. However, that is far from the issue we were discussing, which was overreliance on GPS without developing and maintaining good basic DR/pilotage skills.
I agree it is a basic lack of pilotage skills.

He knew where he was twice, he should have looked at the sectional, picked his next mark and went for it.

Look out the window, if the picture ain't right fix it.
 
I agree it is a basic lack of pilotage skills.

He knew where he was twice, he should have looked at the sectional, picked his next mark and went for it.

Look out the window, if the picture ain't right fix it.

He could not look out the window for 30 minutes.

Guys, the entire setup was designed so he would not know where he was. the CFI wanted to get him lost in a way where he had no way of knowing how he got there (and did an effective job of it). he then failed his GPS, Com1 and Nav1.

The student was under the impression VOR was out of the question (It has not yet been determined if that's true). He had a Nav2, but there is a good chance his CFI would have failed that as well if he tried to use it.

The point of the exercise was to see what he would do in that situation. The goal I suspect was to see if he could fly around and figure out where he was.

A good while later, he did.

If you want to see if I can fly around with a sectional and landmarks, and find out where I am, great. I will. But if you ask me if all those systems started acting up, and for some reason unknown to me I got lost without ever looking out the window, and at the same time all my independent GPS's failed, what would I do?

I would land at the first safe opportunity I could find, all the while trying to figure out where I was, and where I was going, using the skilled I have.

That was the wrong answer. It means I should not fly a plane it seems.

Oh well.
 
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I would land at the first safe opportunity I could find, all the while trying to figure out where I was, and where I was going, using the skilled I have.

That was the wrong answer. It means I should not fly a plane it seems.

Oh well.

Did you see my post where the Instructor would have simply "failed" whatever else you said you would use, including the runway below ("Gee, look at the big yellow X's!") if they wanted you to demonstrate something?

Why land prior to your destination if the airplane is flying fine? Electronics fail. Big deal. The airplane doesn't care if the GPS works today, and the pilot shouldn't either. :)

It's an exercise. All the airports for a hundred mile radius can be "simulated closed" by your CFI. You can still reach the intended destination (or maybe you can't... maybe they're checking to see if you know how much fuel you have on board... heh heh...) just fine.
 
And you still don't get the point of the lesson, so maybe your conclusion is valid.

He could not look out the window for 30 minutes.

Guys, the entire setup was designed so he would not know where he was. the CFI wanted to get him lost in a way where he had no way of knowing how he got there (and did an effective job of it). he then failed his GPS, Com1 and Nav1.

The student was under the impression VOR was out of the question (It has not yet been determined if that's true). He had a Nav2, but there is a good chance his CFI would have failed that as well if he tried to use it.

The point of the exercise was to see what he would do in that situation. The goal I suspect was to see if he could fly around and figure out where he was.

A good while later, he did.

If you want to see if I can fly around with a sectional and landmarks, and find out where I am, great. I will. But if you ask me if all those systems started acting up, and for some reason unknown to me I got lost without ever looking out the window, and at the same time all my independent GPS's failed, what would I do?

I would land at the first safe opportunity I could find, all the while trying to figure out where I was, and where I was going, using the skilled I have.

That was the wrong answer. It means I should not fly a plane it seems.

Oh well.
 
Why land prior to your destination if the airplane is flying fine?

Because I don't know where I am, or where I am going. The best I can do, is hope I find a landmark. It seems everything other then looking at the chart and figuring out where I am is going to fail me.

I don't want to fly into a TFR, weather, run out of fuel, gliders, jumpers, class B airspace, and a dozen other things that could happen if you currently don't know where your going.

And that might be true that everything in your plane aside from the engine can fail and you can fly just fine. It also might mean a fire is about to break out.
 
And you still don't get the point of the lesson, so maybe your conclusion is valid.

The point of the lesson should be the same as every lesson. Make you a better pilot.

After this lesson, I have learned that I should never turn on a GPS, or land if I don't know where I am or what events cause half my plane to become in-operational. I should fly around until I figure it out.

Didn't know that was going to make me a better pilot.
 
Some more thoughts on being lost while VFR.

As others have noted, you really should always have a vague idea where you are. When your GPS goes out you should know how far you were from your next waypoint and in what general direction... with that information, you should be able to figure out where you are on a sectional to one or two of the rectangles, and from THAT you can look for landmarks to refine your position.

What Jesse did, and it's a valid exercise, is force things to start lying to you, so the longer you are flying the more lost you get, because you're processing bad information and taking it as fact. There are ways around that - you check the DG versus the compass before you start reckoning. You listen to the voice that says "that's not right" and crosscheck/doublecheck all your assumptions.

Ok, you've tried everything you know, but you can't find your position on the chart. NONE of your electronics work, so you can't dial up a VOR, you can't call ATC, you can't even listen to the ball game on the ADF. You're looooooooost. If you spot an airport, try and identify it, and then, assuming you can't identify it and determine where you are, land on it (after flying a pattern and checking that it's open, and not covered in military aircraft). If you don't get unlost, then what's a bad situation will become an emergency situation when your fuel gets low.

The point of Jesse's exercise is only partially about getting lost. It's also about task management and prioritization, and most importantly in my opinion, about being the captain and NOT GIVING UP. Sooner or later a pilot is going to run into a situation where things go wrong. Maybe a little wrong, maybe a lot wrong. The most important part of being an aviator is to wear the four stripes on your soul, whether you wear them on your shirt or not. That's what "final authority for the safe conduct of the flight" means at its core.

Enough philosophy. Best wishes to all,
Tim,

My plane fails me, I am running low on fuel, I am lost, and the only "safe place" to land is an airport that has military aircraft all over it, or a field someplace next to it, you can be quite certain I am landing on that military runway. They want to shoot me after I land or as I am landing, well that's probably less painful than falling out of the sky. The FAA wants me to do a 709 well at least I am alive to fly at least one more time. Call me whatever you want, but at least I won't be dead, well, unless the military shoots me.

Doug
 
The point of the lesson should be the same as every lesson. Make you a better pilot.

After this lesson, I have learned that I should never turn on a GPS, or land if I don't know where I am or what events cause half my plane to become in-operational. I should fly around until I figure it out.

Didn't know that was going to make me a better pilot.

Listen we're simply trying to tell you be prepared for if or when the thing fails. If it does fail just don't give up and land. You use all means available to get oriented. This pilot DID have at his disposal the VOR. That would have easily solved his problem. He DID have an operational radio. If self orientation doesn't work then you climb and ATC will get you oriented.

Why do we train for emergencies that will most likely not happen? I've never had an engine fire and actually never meet a pilot who had one, but we train to it just in case. Instructors spend most of the time training the basics, but you still have to devote some time to the rare emergencies.

Part of this excercise Jesse did was to instill confidence in the student in knowing he can get himself out of a bind. It'll make him a better pilot and I guarantee he'll thank Jesse for training him well when he gets his license.

I used to have students in the Army who actually wanted me to take away the GPS to see if they could navigate to the destination. This was at night, flying at 100 ft and arriving to an LZ probably that's no bigger than your backyard. Why would they want me to do this? The challenge of being able to navigate when all else fails they know they can do it with a map and a compass and still be wheels down within 1 minute of ETA.

We're not saying don't turn on a GPS. All of us use it. It's one of the greatest safety tools out there. Just don't become so relient on it that it's your only source of nav.
 
Nice try but no cigar and you still don't get it. The point of each exercise is to cause the student to analyze the problem and develop a solution. Doing so may require the student to think his way through the issue rather than pulling a Wyatt Earp on the Nokia. If the student fails to analyze the problem and seeks to run away, the instructor has every right to shut off the escape routes until the desired outcome is (hopefully) achieved.
The point of the lesson should be the same as every lesson. Make you a better pilot.

After this lesson, I have learned that I should never turn on a GPS, or land if I don't know where I am or what events cause half my plane to become in-operational. I should fly around until I figure it out.

Didn't know that was going to make me a better pilot.
 
Nice try but no cigar and you still don't get it. The point of each exercise is to cause the student to analyze the problem and develop a solution. Doing so may require the student to think his way through the issue rather than pulling a Wyatt Earp on the Nokia. If the student fails to analyze the problem and seeks to run away, the instructor has every right to shut off the escape routes until the desired outcome is (hopefully) achieved.

Fine, then when I try and land, tell me "your landing gear has fallen off, and you must alert an airport before you attempt to land" and I will try and find out where I am before I run out of gas.

That was not the senario. The issue I have, is when I say I am very uncomfortable with how things have gone so far in this flight (because half a dozen things have gone wrong with it so far), and thus use my judgment to attempt to land and regroup, I am told I should not be a pilot.

Sorry if I don't fly with an ego, or use it as a way to say how much of a man I am. I fly for fun, and safety is important. I have no problems navigating using all the FAA required methods. I just have a problem being told aborting a flight you have become uncomfortable with, is wrong.

There is a post around here about a man who felt he was being pressured into flying in weather he didn't feel comfortable in, and I think everyone is telling him to not do it if it makes him uncomfortable.

Why is my decision all that different?
 
The point of the lesson should be the same as every lesson. Make you a better pilot.

After this lesson, I have learned that I should never turn on a GPS, or land if I don't know where I am or what events cause half my plane to become in-operational. I should fly around until I figure it out.

Didn't know that was going to make me a better pilot.
I wouldn't make that argument... the point of the flight lesson, and the (intended if not apparent) point that most of the "old crusts" are making here, is that such an exercise just makes you a more challenged student. Obviously, it'd be crazy to expect you to use DR and pilotage from a completely disoriented standpoint with the same accuracy as GPS. But forcing a student to try makes for a nav-muscle-building exercise that is useful in the long run. To me, "better pilot" means "more well-rounded pilot." I am not an old crust, studied under pretty young crusts for the most part, and had ground-based navaids and a little basic GPS and LORAN at my disposal when learning to navigate... but the focus was always on the basics first, the nice-to-haves after. It's not a matter of yearning for the past... most old crusts know life was not really better "back in the day"; they just remember it fondly because they were young then. :D
I'm not that old yet, and I already catch myself doing it. When you are old and youngsters freak out that you actually were allowed at one time to fly an airplane that did not have its own autonomous cybernetic brain, using only Earth satellites for navigation, you will understand, too. :D So when those of us who learned to fly back in the caveman days grumble at the new breed's frustration with old-school nav skills, keep that in mind.

You cited a radius, based on time and known airspeed, after a bunch of random heading changes. Okay, that's actually a lot of information, provided you have a chart, and part of the circle lies on the chart. Stuck with only that, you are in pretty good shape, really. You probably won't have to search even 5% of that circle to find something outside that you can identify on the chart, at which time you are no longer lost. :) Assuming suitable vis, pilotage is usually pretty damn easy. The cost of learning to use it is negligible in light of its potential value. Sure, while searching for something, you might bust an airspace, or go somewhere you would just prefer not to be. But this sort of thing still happens, with alarming frequency, even with the very latest toys available, in good working order. Pilots also fly into terrain and each other with terrain and traffic alert technology. Don't ask me why, I don't know. But I bring that up to point out that you are really not any more likely to do that while using only compass, clock and chart, or maybe one VOR radial, than you are while using a GPS-based device. I really don't think so, based on my experience (which is modest, but pretty well-rounded).

You also mentioned feeling that everyone's saying anything other than looking at the chart is going to fail you. I don't get that from this discussion, but I will say that compass, clock and chart are probably the least likely things to fail you. They are harder to use with great efficiency, downright primitive compared to GPS, but they are usually enough, and very unlikely to be un-usable or contain errors unknown to the user, as is often the case with any radio navaid (including GPS).
Personally, I place compass, clock and chart at the bottom of my nav-tool pyramid; they are the foundation. If I'm using something else, even just NDBs, I make sure the "three Cs" are there, ready, and I don't completely ignore them when I'm using something else. The simple reason is that I know they are least likely to let me down... BUT I have to be proficient with them, or they will be useless.
 
Here is the problem I have with most attitudes on this forum:

If you are a fan of GPS, it must mean you know nothing about DR, Pilotage, or VOR's. You're just an accident waiting for an equipment failure.

Disagree. I am in love and lust with GPS. But I still have a sectional and L chart with me wherever I go. I think it's just plain fun to follow along on the sectional.
 
Disagree. I am in love and lust with GPS. But I still have a sectional and L chart with me wherever I go. I think it's just plain fun to follow along on the sectional.

You are not one of the ones I am talking about :)
 
Because you still don't understand what was being taught and why the instructor employed the tactics necessary to give the student the opportunity to learn.

Airplanes and equipment don't always play fair, and the failures are in many cases due to things nobody thinks could or would happen--but they do. The pilot is the only person who can identify the cheater and make the necessary corrections. I'd be the first to agree that an instructor who develops a scenario in which the student is doomed to fail shouldn't expect much respect from the student or the peanut gallery in the forums.

OTOH, if he develops a scenario that can be resolved by using the previously-taught fundamentals every pilot should know as the check ride draws nigh, the student can gain much value from being placed in a situation in which he had to think it through rather than just reciting a checklist.



Fine, then when I try and land, tell me "your landing gear has fallen off, and you must alert an airport before you attempt to land" and I will try and find out where I am before I run out of gas.

That was not the senario. The issue I have, is when I say I am very uncomfortable with how things have gone so far in this flight (because half a dozen things have gone wrong with it so far), and thus use my judgment to attempt to land and regroup, I am told I should not be a pilot.

Sorry if I don't fly with an ego, or use it as a way to say how much of a man I am. I fly for fun, and safety is important. I have no problems navigating using all the FAA required methods. I just have a problem being told aborting a flight you have become uncomfortable with, is wrong.

There is a post around here about a man who felt he was being pressured into flying in weather he didn't feel comfortable in, and I think everyone is telling him to not do it if it makes him uncomfortable.

Why is my decision all that different?
 
Because you still don't understand what was being taught and why the instructor employed the tactics necessary to give the student the opportunity to learn.

Airplanes and equipment don't always play fair, and the failures are in many cases due to things nobody thinks could or would happen--but they do. The pilot is the only person who can identify the cheater and make the necessary corrections. I'd be the first to agree that an instructor who develops a scenario in which the student is doomed to fail shouldn't expect much respect from the student or the peanut gallery in the forums.

OTOH, if he develops a scenario that can be resolved by using the previously-taught fundamentals every pilot should know as the check ride draws nigh, the student can gain much value from being placed in a situation in which he had to think it through rather than just reciting a checklist.

It seems you are having a difficult time comprehending my position. The best I can do is explain it to you one more time.

At no point, did I chose to land because I felt I could not find my way home, or felt I lacked any of the necessary skills to pass a check ride. I chose to land, because the senario put forth: IMC conditions for 30 minutes with inaccurate instruments, posible failing vacuum system, 430 has gone black, VOR down, and can't get flight services on COM2, all led me to feel I should put the plane on the ground.

As PIC, that's my choice. I take it you feel it's the wrong choice. I have yet to hear from anyone a convincing reason why it makes me unfit to be a pilot.
 
It's not your choice if the IP eliminates it. In the described scenario it's a cop-out vs. thinking your way through the problem. It's easier to create these situations in the sim when the IP can summon ground fog to sock in the airport that you saw out the window.

As you mentioned in another thread, your propensity to argue gets in the way of learning what you need to know.


It seems you are having a difficult time comprehending my position. The best I can do is explain it to you one more time.

At no point, did I chose to land because I felt I could not find my way home, or felt I lacked any of the necessary skills to pass a check ride. I chose to land, because the senario put forth: IMC conditions for 30 minutes with inaccurate instruments, posible failing vacuum system, 430 has gone black, VOR down, and can't get flight services on COM2, all led me to feel I should put the plane on the ground.

As PIC, that's my choice. I take it you feel it's the wrong choice. I have yet to hear from anyone a convincing reason why it makes me unfit to be a pilot.
 
The answer is not "Because I said so" or "Because my CFI told me so," its "because I don't want to get lost and do something monumentally stupid when I have no choice but to do it the old fashioned way."

You can always use GPS as the primary means if you don't feel like using pilotage. I'd go so far as to say you don't really need any training to use GPS adequately for VFR flight (assuming you are of the generation of technology as I am). But no one can look at a sectional and the ground without any training and figure out how to get from here to there. That is why CFIs must insist on dual proficiency.

Its your life (and your ticket, in non-life threatening situations) that is on the line if you suddenly find yourself without any means to navigate and you don't have the basic skillset needed to do it the old fashioned way.
 
It seems you are having a difficult time comprehending my position. The best I can do is explain it to you one more time.

At no point, did I chose to land because I felt I could not find my way home, or felt I lacked any of the necessary skills to pass a check ride. I chose to land, because the senario put forth: IMC conditions for 30 minutes with inaccurate instruments, posible failing vacuum system, 430 has gone black, VOR down, and can't get flight services on COM2, all led me to feel I should put the plane on the ground.

As PIC, that's my choice. I take it you feel it's the wrong choice. I have yet to hear from anyone a convincing reason why it makes me unfit to be a pilot.

Mafoo - please read this very real story that happened to me years ago:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4231

Note - at one point, I considered exactly what you said - I almost landed on I-25 because I was so certain that I was irreparably lost, I didn't know what to do.

But I did not do it, I continued on and fate was on my side (its clear my brain was not on my side through most of it). Had fate not cooperated, you bet your ass I would have landed to get out the situation and then regrouped.

But what you said first (before adding caviats) is that if GPS quits on you, your first instinct is to land and figure out what to do. If that is your first instinct, you need to get out and do the basics again until you are comfortable.

If its just a misunderstanding, whatever, but "land first, figure it out later" is rarely the right answer.
 
He could not look out the window for 30 minutes. Oh well.

He did look out the window, he read the water tower, he knew where he was, Now look at a sectional..
 
It's not your choice if the IP eliminates it. In the described scenario it's a cop-out vs. thinking your way through the problem. It's easier to create these situations in the sim when the IP can summon ground fog to sock in the airport that you saw out the window.

As you mentioned in another thread, your propensity to argue gets in the way of learning what you need to know.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

It is my choice. If the IP eliminates it, I need to go to my second choice. It still does not change what I would do as a first choice.

My choice it to get out of the sky. Maybe one day I will become an A&P, and realize that all those systems failing means absolutely nothing else could go wrong. That I have zero risk of losing ailerons, or having a landing gear failure if I am in a complex aircraft. But today I don't know that. I am going to land.
 
The answer is not "Because I said so" or "Because my CFI told me so," its "because I don't want to get lost and do something monumentally stupid when I have no choice but to do it the old fashioned way."

You can always use GPS as the primary means if you don't feel like using pilotage. I'd go so far as to say you don't really need any training to use GPS adequately for VFR flight (assuming you are of the generation of technology as I am). But no one can look at a sectional and the ground without any training and figure out how to get from here to there. That is why CFIs must insist on dual proficiency.

Its your life (and your ticket, in non-life threatening situations) that is on the line if you suddenly find yourself without any means to navigate and you don't have the basic skillset needed to do it the old fashioned way.

wow... ok, I am done.

At no point, have I said I lack the skills, or wish to lack the skills to read a chart and figure out where I am.

It's getting comical in here.
 
Above is a series of posts from Jesse's "My Student Got Lost Thread". I had to catch up reading it and it was at 7 pages when this thought occurred to me:

This theme has come up several times where a student or new private pilot argues his case for GPS. There are a few exceptions of experienced pilots that are GPS die-hards (L.Adamson for example). On the other side of the argument are other pilots and CFI's that constantly try to convice the student the he should learn something in addition to GPS.

Side note: *IMHO, the regs are on the side of the student as is classifies VOR and GPS as electronic navigation and requires the testee to demonstrate navigation both by electronic and non-electronic means. I know that's going to get me in trouble, but....

Nevertheless, brings me to my point: I think there will be a point in time, as this cadre of newer pilots becomes CFIs; and that this thought process will be with them a long time and they will train the new crop of pilots as the current cadre of CFIs become the old crusty CFIs and DPEs (LOL- Jesse, imagine yourself as the crusty guy)...

It seems to me that the old crust camp has done a poor job of explaining in believable fashion WHY their thought process is superior. They only repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra and say....'one day you'll see it my way'. I have my doubts.

To the (soon to be) crusty crowd, how about a well thought out rational explanation? The one you're using doesn't seem to be working. At least every 2-3 months there will be another argument discussion on PoA over using GPS only and as I see it, your legacy of 'learn something other than GPS' will be soon be lost.

I leave you with this:


"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinon still" - several attributions
I'm a 21 year old CFI and I'm in full agreement with Jesse. We as pilots can't be safe if we don't know all or most of the tricks in our bags to avoid becoming a statistic.
 
The answer is not "Because I said so" or "Because my CFI told me so," its "because I don't want to get lost and do something monumentally stupid when I have no choice but to do it the old fashioned way."
Not to mention "because I want to pass the practical test." That's important to me because I hate to see my trainees waste money taking the test more than once, and also because I need at least 80% of them to pass the test the first time so I can renew my CFI without doing a FIRC.

Selfish attitude, isn't that? :wink2:
 
Here is the problem I have with most attitudes on this forum:

If you are a fan of GPS, it must mean you know nothing about DR, Pilotage, or VOR's. You're just an accident waiting for an equipment failure.
You misread my posts...You need to be able to use everything you have, including GPS. I love GPS and all that it has done to modernize aviation and I believe that a pilot who knows its limitations and proper use is a safer pilot with higher situational awareness;however, it can and does fail and it better not be an emergency when it does so...
 
You misread my posts...You need to be able to use everything you have, including GPS. I love GPS and all that it has done to modernize aviation and I believe that a pilot who knows its limitations and proper use is a safer pilot with higher situational awareness;however, it can and does fail and it better not be an emergency when it does so...

I agree. however when it, your radio, and your nav fail, landing somewhere safe should not be considered taboo.

When my GPS failed in Jesse's senario, landing was not my first option. Only after a series of other failures happened, did I chose to land.
 
What percentage of accidents are due to navigation errors?

Without know the answer to the above, how do people (i.e. the FAA) determine how much of a student's finite time and money should be allocated to navigation skills in general?
 
Without know the answer to the above, how do people (i.e. the FAA) determine how much of a student's finite time and money should be allocated to navigation skills in general?
Is that the job of the FAA, or the job of the CFI. I would assume that the amount of time and money spent on learning navigational skills would be proportional to the students ability to learn and demonstrate the skill to the CFI's satisfaction. Other than some minimums spent on certain activities(hood work, solo time, minimum flight time, and maybe a few I am forgetting) I do not remember any minimum times spent on any other skills. In fact, the xc flights are based on distances, and night flights on distances and number of landings if I remember correctly. It's too late and I am too tired to check it out.
 
Without know the answer to the above, how do people (i.e. the FAA) determine how much of a student's finite time and money should be allocated to navigation skills in general?

They don't. They set a minimum navigation standard in the PTS and require instructors to meet at least the minimums.

If that takes a student 2 hours or 20 hours or 200 hours to figure out, the FAA doesn't care.
 
When I was doing more instruction, our saddle of choice was a CH7A/X No xpdr, no vor, no gps. just the bare minimum VFR... and a chart. After helping enough folks earn solo - CPL to get my goldseal a few times over, I've have yet to see one get lost.

Everything in the aircraft will fail given enough time and it's just a matter of that, time.. Are your students equipped to deal with this eventuality of that fancy GPS screen going blank, that vor going inop? I sleep well knowing the thing least likely to fail on my old students planes are my students :yes:
 
Is that the job of the FAA, or the job of the CFI. I would assume that the amount of time and money spent on learning navigational skills would be proportional to the students ability to learn and demonstrate the skill to the CFI's satisfaction. Other than some minimums spent on certain activities(hood work, solo time, minimum flight time, and maybe a few I am forgetting) I do not remember any minimum times spent on any other skills. In fact, the xc flights are based on distances, and night flights on distances and number of landings if I remember correctly. It's too late and I am too tired to check it out.

Thanks for answering - but a second after I hit submit I realized I wrote one thing while intending to write a different question.

Not sure why navigation techniques is worth all this arguing.
 
Thanks for answering - but a second after I hit submit I realized I wrote one thing while intending to write a different question.

Not sure why navigation techniques is worth all this arguing.
I learn more from this "arguing" than from many other sources. The books give you typically one point of view, the forums multitudes. I may not agree with or understand everything that is posted but reading the different takes on what sometimes seems like simple subject is at the very least educational. My only analogy I can use is when I was in training for my profession I spent time with over 30 different mentors over a 7 year period. My way of doing things is a conglomeration of what I felt worked the best. Others in my field have learned from one or at most two mentors and are quite limited in their ability to tackle the unexpected. By getting the opinions of many, often times others will look at something in a completely different way than I could even think of, and suddenly a door opens that I did not even know existed. I do not consider the posts arguments but discussions of different points of view. Personally, for me the more different ways of looking at something the better it is. At the very least the threads are often just fun to read.

Doug
 
When I was doing more instruction, our saddle of choice was a CH7A/X No xpdr, no vor, no gps. just the bare minimum VFR... and a chart. After helping enough folks earn solo - CPL to get my goldseal a few times over, I've have yet to see one get lost.

Well shucks - the only reason nobody got lost is that all they had to do to find out where they were was to shout questions down to the drivers of the cars passing them on the freeway below. Hard to get lost at those speeds anyway. :D
 
It seems to me that the old crust camp has done a poor job of explaining in believable fashion WHY their thought process is superior. They only repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra and say....'one day you'll see it my way'. I have my doubts.

To the (soon to be) crusty crowd, how about a well thought out rational explanation? The one you're using doesn't seem to be working. At least every 2-3 months there will be another argument discussion on PoA over using GPS only and as I see it, your legacy of 'learn something other than GPS' will be soon be lost.

I like to think i'm not crusty in any sense of the word... Anyway, I look at it this way, lets say you've got two otherwise equal pilots who spend 10 hours of training doing cross country flights:

pilot A spent 1 hour doing pilotage/DR/VOR/ADF/whatever and 9 hours using GPS.
pilot B spent 9 hours doing pilotage/DR/VOR/ADF/whatever and 1 hour using GPS.

I'm claiming that navigating via GPS is so simple that both pilots will be more or less equally good at following the magenta line.
But pilot B is going to be far superior at the other forms of navigation. That makes pilot B a more qualified pilot. And more qualified is better than less qualified, right?
 
Well shucks - the only reason nobody got lost is that all they had to do to find out where they were was to shout questions down to the drivers of the cars passing them on the freeway below. Hard to get lost at those speeds anyway. :D


Lol, well said sir!
 
\__[Ô]__/;1001575 said:
I like to think i'm not crusty in any sense of the word... Anyway, I look at it this way, lets say you've got two otherwise equal pilots who spend 10 hours of training doing cross country flights:

pilot A spent 1 hour doing pilotage/DR/VOR/ADF/whatever and 9 hours using GPS.
pilot B spent 9 hours doing pilotage/DR/VOR/ADF/whatever and 1 hour using GPS.

I'm claiming that navigating via GPS is so simple that both pilots will be more or less equally good at following the magenta line.
But pilot B is going to be far superior at the other forms of navigation. That makes pilot B a more qualified pilot. And more qualified is better than less qualified, right?

The problem with your setup, is it implies you have a finite amount of training time, and to be proficient at GPS, you need to sacrifice other forms of navigation.

How about you spend XX number of hours training cross country flights, until you are as good at all forms of navigation as you can be?

This is not chess we are talking about.

DR is DR. Thats the easiest one. Figure out where you should point the plane, and go. How much time does it take to get good at that?

Pilotage (outside of GPS) would benefit the most from training, as the more you do it, the better you become at spotting landmarks, and picking good ones to begin with. However at some point, you are as good as you're going to be.

VOR is VOR. You learn it, and you know it. No additional training (aside from making sure you don't forget it) benefits you.

GPS is the only one I would think people are grossly undertrained to use. Also, as time goes on, GPS units change. Once you upgrade GPS units, you need to retrain on them. I would bet 90% of people with a 430, only know how to use 30% of it's features.
 
Tim,

My plane fails me, I am running low on fuel, I am lost, and the only "safe place" to land is an airport that has military aircraft all over it, or a field someplace next to it, you can be quite certain I am landing on that military runway. They want to shoot me after I land or as I am landing, well that's probably less painful than falling out of the sky. The FAA wants me to do a 709 well at least I am alive to fly at least one more time. Call me whatever you want, but at least I won't be dead, well, unless the military shoots me.

Doug

If you're in that situation, that's reasonable. My example didn't have you low on fuel yet. No sense landing on a military base if you still have other options.

I know of one person who landed with a rough engine at Camp Peary. He got quite the reception but wasn't injured, shot, arrested, or put on a no-fly list.
 
If you're in that situation, that's reasonable. My example didn't have you low on fuel yet. No sense landing on a military base if you still have other options.

I know of one person who landed with a rough engine at Camp Peary. He got quite the reception but wasn't injured, shot, arrested, or put on a no-fly list.
I guess the getting shot statement was a little dramatic. Though you never know I could get so lost and end up in Cuba.:yikes:

Doug
 
The problem with your setup, is it implies you have a finite amount of training time, and to be proficient at GPS, you need to sacrifice other forms of navigation.

How about you spend XX number of hours training cross country flights, until you are as good at all forms of navigation as you can be?

This is not chess we are talking about.

DR is DR. Thats the easiest one. Figure out where you should point the plane, and go. How much time does it take to get good at that?

Pilotage (outside of GPS) would benefit the most from training, as the more you do it, the better you become at spotting landmarks, and picking good ones to begin with. However at some point, you are as good as you're going to be.

VOR is VOR. You learn it, and you know it. No additional training (aside from making sure you don't forget it) benefits you.

GPS is the only one I would think people are grossly undertrained to use. Also, as time goes on, GPS units change. Once you upgrade GPS units, you need to retrain on them. I would bet 90% of people with a 430, only know how to use 30% of it's features.

No one is sacrificing training the GPS for other forms. With all the hours flown in training there's no excuse not to be proficient at all forms of navigation. The GPS should be the primary and should be used on all flights not just x-country. If they don't know it after 40-50 something hours then they have problems. If someone only knows 30 % of it's features well then that's on them. There's a manual and tutorials that can be done online. Shoot, I have a 480 in my aircraft and only had to use half of it's features and that's flying it IFR and VFR. There's only so much out of a GPS that you need.

Also you keep saying the student didn't have VOR or COMM. That's incorrect. Jesse said the student was afforded both, he just chose pilotage. I give the students props for finding a water tower in a small town. This scenario isn't an emergency like you make it out to be. The only things inop were the GPS and his DG. Even then his DG hadn't failed it just needed to be reset. Still had a compass. I did my first X-country as student with a failed DG and a sectional. Although my instructor was mad at me I still got the job done.

No one is advocating going back to Jimmy Doolittle times because that was real navigation. We just believe all pilots should be able to function fine when one of our nav toys breaks. It's not a boat license, you're gonna be a pilot and we expect more from people to earn that rating. Your future passengers depend on it.
 
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No one is sacrificing training the GPS for other forms. With all the hours flown in training there's no excuse not to be proficient at all forms of navigation. The GPS should be the primary and should be used on all flights not just x-country. If they don't know it after 40-50 something hours then they have problems. If someone only knows 30 % of it's features well then that's on them. There's a manual and tuturials that can be done online. Shoot, I have a 480 in my aircraft and only had to use half of it's features and that's flying it IFR and VFR. There's only so much out of a GPS that you need.

Also you keep saying the student didn't have VOR or COMM. That's incorrect. Jesse said the student was afforded both, he just chose pilotage. I give the students props for finding a water tower in a small town. This scenario isn't an emergency like you make it out to be. The only things inop were the GPS and his DG. Even then his DG hadn't failed it just needed to be reset. Still had a compass. I did my first X-country as student with a failed DG and a sectional. Although my instructor was mad at me I still got the job done.

No one is advocating going back to Jimmy Doolittle times because that was real navigation. We just believe all pilots should be able to function fine when one of our nav toys breaks. It's not a boat license, you're gonna be a pilot and we expect more from people to earn that rating. Your future passengers depend on it.

I get all that, and if I was in the plane with Jesse, I would not have landed.

I would have climbed, and possibly figure out where I was.
I would have then called flight services, told them I was doing some training as a student, and asked them if they can locate me. They would probably help me, I would have located myself on the chart, and off we go. For that not to work, Jesse would have to of failed COM. Then it's an entirely different senario. One where I now have more problems then no GPS.

The VOR thing would be my fault for thinking it was down. I am not sure I would have thought that, but the student did, so I started where he did.

The issue that blew all this up into hundreds of posts, is I used the acronym GPS and the word iPhone somewhere within my decision tree, so somehow I am 100% reliant on it, and I must never be a pilot.

It's a ridiculous reaction from an obviously oversensitive community (I am not putting you in that category).
 
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