Because I Said So, That's Why

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
At this point you have absolutely no idea of what you will never do.

Yes I do. I will never bring up GPS on this forum again as a navigational aid.

Frankly, this topic is kind of getting beaten to death here, but just understand , Mafoo, that most posters here have your best interests at heart. They aren't just old salts who think you need to do it the hard way because that's how they did it. They just appreciate that knowing how to do it the old way may either save your butt one day, or may come in handy as a backup, or if nothing else, will teach you more about decision making and problem solving.

Fly around enough and you WILL encounter GPS outages.

Above is a series of posts from Jesse's "My Student Got Lost Thread". I had to catch up reading it and it was at 7 pages when this thought occurred to me:

This theme has come up several times where a student or new private pilot argues his case for GPS. There are a few exceptions of experienced pilots that are GPS die-hards (L.Adamson for example). On the other side of the argument are other pilots and CFI's that constantly try to convice the student the he should learn something in addition to GPS.

Side note: *IMHO, the regs are on the side of the student as is classifies VOR and GPS as electronic navigation and requires the testee to demonstrate navigation both by electronic and non-electronic means. I know that's going to get me in trouble, but....

Nevertheless, brings me to my point: I think there will be a point in time, as this cadre of newer pilots becomes CFIs; and that this thought process will be with them a long time and they will train the new crop of pilots as the current cadre of CFIs become the old crusty CFIs and DPEs (LOL- Jesse, imagine yourself as the crusty guy)...

It seems to me that the old crust camp has done a poor job of explaining in believable fashion WHY their thought process is superior. They only repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra, repeat that mantra and say....'one day you'll see it my way'. I have my doubts.

To the (soon to be) crusty crowd, how about a well thought out rational explanation? The one you're using doesn't seem to be working. At least every 2-3 months there will be another argument discussion on PoA over using GPS only and as I see it, your legacy of 'learn something other than GPS' will be soon be lost.

I leave you with this:
I will never bring up GPS on this forum again as a navigational aid.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinon still" - several attributions
 
Side note: *IMHO, the regs are on the side of the student as is classifies VOR and GPS as electronic navigation and requires the testee to demonstrate navigation both by electronic and non-electronic means. I know that's going to get me in trouble, but....
Not quite -- the regs do require the student know how to use the GPS but there are lots of tasks in the PTS that need to be completed WITHOUT the GPS.
 
Jaybird, just so we (me anyway) are all perfectly clear about which thought process to which you are referring, can you summarize it in one or two brief sentences?
 
What about the day VOR navigation is eliminated from GA? I recall a thread awhile back involving VOR and its eventual demise.
 
The same policy the FAA teaches/enforces is the same I taught in the Army. GPS is only one form of navigation. You still have to teach the use of VORs , ADFs and yes, pilotage and DR. Pilotage and dead reckoning is a requirement not a technique that only old guys teach. Until the FAA removes this requirement then the student is required to be able to demonstrate it. In the Army it's a required task that is also evaluated at least once a year. When I taught students the GPS was used 75 % of the time. If the student had a good grasp on its use then I concentrated on their map reading/pilotage and dead reckoning skills. Maybe the FAA and the Army need to abandon the teaching of reading a map and navigating off landmarks because GPS will never fail? I don't know, but that's above my level. :)
 
At the risk of being flamed and not having read the "Jesse story" I'll assume the discussion is on the proper use (training) of alternate (VOR, NDB) electronic navigation to supplement the GPS (or the need thereof). I classify myself somewhere north of "newbie" and south of "crusty" (~1500 hours). I have been flying GNS430/530 IFR-GPS equipped aircraft for ~10 years and have had three GPS failures; two were in IMC and very busy airspace. The first jammed my handheld "backup" GPS as well due to an, unknown at the time, antenna failure. Fortunately, I nearly always file a VOR-based flight plan or when DIRECT have a pre-planned VOR version to legally revert to in case of GPS failure; I follow along with my VOR/OBI during the flight. Of the three failures, two were the fault of my on-board equipment. The third is still a mystery; GPS went out for about an hour.
I am very concerned about the government's short-sighted decision to slowly decommission the nation’s grid of VORs. Just read an article in National Geographic on how we are overdue for a large solar flare; say bye bye to GPS for a few days; possibly months if the sats are fried.
 
What about the day VOR navigation is eliminated from GA? I recall a thread awhile back involving VOR and its eventual demise.

What about the day the box goes dark? You need to be able to do basic navigation without the magic box.
 
My thinking on this has, I believe, been shared before.

First, for all the primary level pilot certificates, the FAA requires that you be able to navigate without the use of any electronic navigation aids. For Private, you also have to be able to navigate by electronic means, but you still have to be able to navigation without the electronics, too. So, as an instructor, if for no other reason than passing the test, I insist on proficiency in both methods (DR/pilotage and electronic systems) before endorsing my trainees for the practical test.

In addition, because I'm a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy, I also insist on that dual proficiency before solo XC. I want to be sure that if my trainee accidentally pushes the wrong buttons on the GPS, s/he won't follow it north when the destination airport is really south, with all the potential problems which could ensue from going the wrong way (Douglas Corrigan notwithstanding).

And yes, a "wrong buttons" issue cost one local rated pilot a few weeks on the ground because he followed his GPS into the expanded Camp David area even though he knew it was active and was trying to use his GPS to avoid it. He fumble-thumbed a course adjustment and ended up with a D-> right through the outer area around P-40 (the expanded area not being displayed on his non-XM GPS). Had he used a sectional and DR/pilotage, he might have realized his GPS was taking him somewhere he did not wish to go.

Is that sufficient explanation beyond "because I said so"?
 
The same policy the FAA teaches/enforces is the same I taught in the Army. GPS is only one form of navigation. You still have to teach the use of VORs , ADFs and yes, pilotage and DR. Pilotage and dead reckoning is a requirement not a technique that only old guys teach. Until the FAA removes this requirement then the student is required to be able to demonstrate it. In the Army it's a required task that is also evaluated at least once a year. When I taught students the GPS was used 75 % of the time. If the student had a good grasp on its use then I concentrated on their map reading/pilotage and dead reckoning skills. Maybe the FAA and the Army need to abandon the teaching of reading a map and navigating off landmarks because GPS will never fail? I don't know, but that's above my level. :)

I had to learn VOR navigation and certainly pilotage and DR, but my ADF was marked inop shortly after buying the plane. I never had any interest in learning it and was never required to. I think the only time it was turned on, is when the broker demonstrated its ability to receive AM radio stations (even he didn't venture beyond its entertainment value).
 
Perhaps the thought that's not coming off clearly is to be master of a ship, one must know and be able to utilize all possible options on board. The other thing that comes out often is the "resignation" attitude which isn't overall a good pilot trait.

Many of the Instructors have been placed in situations where every last bit of knowledge they had, or imparted to a student, brought them or the student home alive. They've had the midnight voice message, "I'm just calling to thank you for drilling that stuff into my head. If you hadn't, you might be getting a call from my wife/husband asking you to come to the funeral."

There's nothing wrong with GPS as primary Nav. But hey, when the feces hits the rotating air acceleration device, you'd better not think that you'll always be able to "just land" and sort it out. Electrical failures happen. Backup GPS handhelds in the flight bag get bumped and turned on and their batteries run dead. It's a whole lot easier to just be able to calmly look at the compass and your watch and know you'll arrive safely in 30 minutes than go through the drama of "what do I do now?".

Jesse's story was one that left his student LOTS of options, and yet, the student flew around for an hour without truly knowing where he was. This is a common theme in piloting any air, land, or sea craft throughout history. Pilots get lost. It's what they do to control their emotions and think, so they can become "un-lost" that separates the prepared minds from the CFIT statistics.

It's pitch black, no moon, and you're over Eastern Colorado at night. You know the airports have been turning the lights off to save electricity these days. You have a full electrical failure. Your handheld GPS died this morning and the FBO at your departure point didn't have any AA batteries for sale. You can't key the radio for lights at those airports, or for any assistance. Are you confident that you can hold a heading with a flashlight or head lamp and time the leg and tuck right under the Bravo at home, circle the destination airport (lit up 24/7) for a light gun signal, and land without even missing a beat, which will put the airplane 300 yards from your favorite mechanic you trust on Monday morning? Or are you sent into a panic, take an hour to find yourself, find an airport that left the lights on dim, land in the middle of nowhere and hit a deer, no one knows you're there, injured, and spend a cold night wondering if you'll bleed to death before the morning guy shows up to open the FBO and sees the wreck?

Yes there are bad decisions in the above scenario before the airplane ever left the ground. But once it's up there, you gotta be PIC. It's no longer optional.

There's just so many dynamic scenarios that can happen in the real world outside of the training environment when you start flying long distances, that Instructors must impart as many skills as they can. And that's all they're doing. It's one thing to read "use the compass and a stopwatch" on an Internet message board. It's yet another to do it in turbulence in an airplane. Your ticket says you know how to Captain the ship in all circumstances. They signed the logbook and said you were ready. The DPE signed saying you were tested to a minimum standard. As Doc Bruce's avatar says, one need not accept the minimum standards when it comes to aviation, and probably shouldn't.

Or how about this? Add a smoke smell to the electrical system failing. It's pitch black and something is burning. Does this change your plan? ;)

I think the most interesting learning experiences I've ever had in aircraft that made me think, hard... were when something unexpected happened (even for the Instructor) and the question became...

"Now what are you going to do?"

Example... The static system weirdness Jesse and I experienced in the middle of nowhere Nebraska on a well-below-freezing night. We already aborted one takeoff... How long has it been since you practiced one of those? Are you glad you had an instructor that made you do it ten years ago tonight? We've looked over the system and nothing looks wrong, but its definitely doing something weird.

Do you launch? Are we done instrument training for the night? Have we both briefed exactly what we're going to do here on this black-hole departure? Since it may or may not work correctly, have you ever had your instructor cover up your airspeed indicator and make you do a takeoff without it? Do you know what it sounds like? How many degrees nose-up on the AI is a Vy climb? Are you glad they did?

Best that could ever be determined on that was that water got somewhere it shouldn't have and froze. All symptoms and follow up checks found nothing wrong. Three different shops have confirmed that now including a fresh pitot/static check. That night, it was an unknown.

A GPS failure is, in the prepared mind, a given. It will fail. Not it "might" fail. The prepared mind says everything in the aircraft can fail at any time.

Heck, I've even had a compass fail. Damn thing sprung a leak and it was done. No more compass. Who's ever trained or heard of a compass failure in the Private Pilot manuals? "Crusty" instructors have seen it. 35 hour pilots, haven't. It ain't in the books they're reading.

The problem with Internet boards is, folks want to discuss scenarios. Instructors aren't preparing you for scenarios. They have to use scenarios because its impossible to not use them for training. But they're trying to impart a different goal altogether... the ability to think and remain PIC and not just a passenger on the way to the crash scene, when the "impossible" scenarios happen in the real world.

35 hour pilots don't have these scenarios in their heads from having SEEN them themselves, they have stories. The stories are written by the more experienced. It takes a while until you have something happen that's completely unexpected aloft.

Is that a reasonable enough explanation of the "crusty" opinion that one should prepare for as many possibilities as possible, and stress students to see if they can think up new solutions under stress?

It's not about the GPS. It's about being prepared.

p.s. I wouldn't put myself in the "crusty" category, just someone trained by "crusty" folks. It takes a lot of flight hours to realize how useful their teachings were. And a lot of flying along playing "what if?" in your head. It's hard to describe that to someone not even through the first gate of the "license to learn". I think I've seen a few glimpses of some of the things my "crusty" instructors wanted me to be prepared for, but at 500 hours I haven't even scratched the surface. Especially as a brand new Instrument pilot. I've opened up a whole new world of things that could bite me in the ass. Change the above scenario to an Instrument flight plan and IMC conditions. "Now what are you going to do?"
 
I had to learn VOR navigation and certainly pilotage and DR, but my ADF was marked inop shortly after buying the plane. I never had any interest in learning it and was never required to. I think the only time it was turned on, is when the broker demonstrated its ability to receive AM radio stations (even he didn't venture beyond its entertainment value).

Well I should clarify. I was referring to the Black Hawk. Since it has a an ADF as a required piece of equipment we had to teach the use of it. I suppose there are plenty of VFR trainers that have no ADF.
 
I'll preface my reply/comment with the question: why do pilots crash?

Regarding use of GPS: i love it for situational awareness which reduces the chance ill get lost, and also help me thread through a cluster of controlled, stacked airspaces. I'd be stupid if GPS was available and i did not use it*.

Regarding the lost procedure: My hardened opinion is that as important - if not more important than - exercising/teaching the student lost procedures (sans GPS) is the chance to teach the student to handle stressful/overload situations that could lead to problems more immediate and serious than being lost.

So that i see the biggest value of the lost procedure (from that thread).

DPE asked me about NTSB reports and that started a discussion centric to "why do pilots cras?". DPE summarized that most pilot can handle about two issues/failures while in flight. Add a third concurrent issue/failure and the pilot starts to come undone and crashes. I believe that as well.

So the value of that lost procedure was to introduce multiplt failures that the student pilot had to manage and not make matters worse. I don't think it was so much about (or only about) getting back to bearings with or without GPS. My opinion anyways.

*the moment one is no longer able to navigate without the use of gps, then that itslef could be an issue not just related to navigation, but probably other things that require a different thoght process; iow ability to multitask might be so-so.
 
What percentage of accidents are due to navigation errors?

How often are IFR flights navigated by use of pilotage or dead reckoning?

I'm aware of accidents in which aircraft have run into terrain because the pilots presumably didn't know where they were - but my recollection of the accident reports I have read is that the accidents happened when visibility was insufficient for proper pilotage, or where more precision was needed than dead reckoning could provide.

Absent evidence to the contrary, navigation failures for most of us during most trips in VFR is going to be embarrassing or inconvenient - rarely fatal.
 
Having returned the cockpit after many years of inactivity, I was fortunate to have a CFI who mainly kept asking "What do you do next?" about basic flying, navigation, avionics, emergencies, whatever. He would "disable" any number of things including the GPS, the prime topic here as well as the engine on occasion, that helped me look at the total situation. I believe I got proficient must faster than any other method he might have employed but that's probably just me.

Cheers
 
What percentage of accidents are due to navigation errors?

How often are IFR flights navigated by use of pilotage or dead reckoning?

I'm aware of accidents in which aircraft have run into terrain because the pilots presumably didn't know where they were - but my recollection of the accident reports I have read is that the accidents happened when visibility was insufficient for proper pilotage, or where more precision was needed than dead reckoning could provide.

Absent evidence to the contrary, navigation failures for most of us during most trips in VFR is going to be embarrassing or inconvenient - rarely fatal.

I don't think preventing a navigation accident is the primary reason in teaching other forms of navigation besides GPS. If a GPS fails then a pilot under IFR should be able to pick right up with VOR nav or with a little help from ATC. If the GPS fails under VFR like the thread in question, then the pilot needs to be able to pick right up with a sectional without missing a beat.

As far as pilotage and DR under IFR? Well unless your're doing a visual or contact approach it's not much use. I think the thread is referring to VFR nav.
 
I am a new pilot having got my PPL about in Mar 2011. Received my IFR in July this year, and now working on my commercial. I am also an older student(50). I have just over 325 hrs just over half of which has been training of some type. I have down just over 90 hours of cross country, about 50 hours of IMC of which 10 are actually IMC, and about 10 hours of night flight. I still consider myself a beginner pilot but I thin I have some insight into what I like and do not like. I am sure my opinions and techniques will change as time goes on. I also am probably a slow learner given how long it took me to get my PPL, though I did my IFR in the minimum needed. I know enough about computers(I use them all the time in my profession and used to do programming albeit on an amateur level) to know that electronics WILL fail when you need them the most.

Like most things in life too much of a good thing is not necessarily good. Also like most things in life the pendulum swings both ways and eventually finds a steady state. I think if we become too ingrained in our own biases, anti GPS versus pro GPS, we miss out on a lot. I learned to fly in a 6 pack that had a Garmin 430. I rarely used the Garmin 430, and when I did it was to confirm what I already knew. I now fly a "TAA", that being a T182T with G1000 WAAS. When I got my "new plane" I was somewhat disappointed in the back up instruments it has. If I had my druthers I would add two VOR's, an HSI, a turn coordinator, a VSI, and a back up engine monitoring to my panel. If my G1000 goes dead, I have little but a magnetic compass which is located in a crappy place, and my 3 backup instruments, altimeter, artificial horizon, and air speed indicator to get me home safely. I do have my 796 and I-pad which will make a big difference as well. My point is I think we need to learn both ways to fly. Flying with the G1000 or any glass cockpit is quite simple and leave little or anything in figuring out what really to do. I like to fly VOR to VOR, I like to fly by hand, and I like to fly by pilotage and dead reckoning. They are important abilities to learn. GPS flying is also fun, but in a different way. Both are equally important, and saying one is more important than the other is being somewhat shortsighted in my humble opinion.

Bottom line, when flying I need to know how to use everything I have at my disposal(electronic, nonelectronic, both in the plane, and outside the plane including a thorough preflight briefing) when I am flying. If I do not then I am putting myself and my passengers at undue and unnecessary risk and should have not left the hangar. Therefore I make sure to fly often just to keep up my abilities with what my plane offers me. I fly at least once a month at night, once a month by dead reckoning with the GPS moving map blanked out, and try to fly as much as possible by hand but also once a month I will do a flight solely with the autopilot. In addition to my commercial training maneuvers I do the PPL maneuvers (slow flight, stalls, turns about a point, etc) once a month as well.

Doug
 
Doug, why have all that redundancy for a single engine airplane? Think about it.

I don't feel that the G1000 system is any less reliable than the "conventional" panel it replaced. A total electrical failure cripples both, though the G1000 will run on the standby battery for a while. A display failure is no big deal. A subcomponent failure in G1000 is just like losing a single nav/com, or the AI, or the DG, or similar component in the older panels.

If I have a complete electrical failure in a conventional airplane, I've got three choices:
  1. If I'm in visual conditions - Land at the first opportunity, using pilotage and the mark 1 eyeball.
  2. If I'm in instrument conditions and I know where decent weather (higher ceilings or clear skies) lies, head there and either descend below the clouds or fly visually when I can.
  3. Have some backup navigation system. Portable GPS comes to mind. And I always have at least one when I'm flying IFR. Use that and fly an RNAV approach with the backup instruments if that's the only option.
I am more concerned with problems with the single engine than I am with issues around the avionics.
 
I'm defiantly a new wave private pilot with just about 100 hours now and was trained by far from crusty old CFI's. The CFI's I trained with were all young and they still said to me that whenever you go on a XC the sectional should be out. That being said, where I rent we have 4 plane options all 172's. Three have GPS- all different kinds with one being extremely basic, all the way to the garmin 496. When I've flown cross countries before I've only ever flown once in the plane without a GPS. My experience on that flight was, without the GPS I made sure to concentrate more on my times and flight plan and I had my sectional out the entire time. Why? Because that's what I was trained to do. When I fly a GPS equipped plane, I'll admit that I don't always concentrate on the times as much and the sectional is out but I don't always check to varify my position. I would say that flying "old school" without the GPS made me more in tune with what was going on around me.

Sure GPS can fail and pilots have to be able to look outside and match up what they are seeing to a sectional but to make it appear that the use of a GPS is somehow cheating or not what real pilots do, I think, is misleading. My personal philosophy is their is a lot going on in a cockpit of an airplane so I'd like to maximize my available resources. Having a GPS on board makes getting lost, less likely. That's a good thing. Why not take advantage? As long as pilots are trained to look outside and fly the "old school" way a GPS failure should be a relatively easy failure to deal with.
 
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Its really stupid when people say things that amount to "I don't need to learn how to do this because i can just whip out my ipad/iphone"

Learning to navigate with a sectional is going to help you out a ton. Even if you have GPS available. You need to learn how to really use the sectional, I mean have experience with how things look around you, while navigating via sectional. Even WITH gps it can be difficult to pick out airports until you are literally right on top of them. if you're proficient with visual nav, you'll already know the airport is past this bend in the river, on the south side of town.. etc
 
Doug, why have all that redundancy for a single engine airplane? Think about it.

I don't feel that the G1000 system is any less reliable than the "conventional" panel it replaced. A total electrical failure cripples both, though the G1000 will run on the standby battery for a while. A display failure is no big deal. A subcomponent failure in G1000 is just like losing a single nav/com, or the AI, or the DG, or similar component in the older panels.


If I have a complete electrical failure in a conventional airplane, I've got three choices:
  1. If I'm in visual conditions - Land at the first opportunity, using pilotage and the mark 1 eyeball.
  2. If I'm in instrument conditions and I know where decent weather (higher ceilings or clear skies) lies, head there and either descend below the clouds or fly visually when I can.
  3. Have some backup navigation system. Portable GPS comes to mind. And I always have at least one when I'm flying IFR. Use that and fly an RNAV approach with the backup instruments if that's the only option.
I am more concerned with problems with the single engine than I am with issues around the avionics.
Redundancy is nice. Believe me for a number of reasons I will not be adding a fully redundant six pack to my plane, same reason I have not added a DME, or ADF to it either. I do not even have SVT on my G1000(got a lot better things to do with 10 grand). However, if poop hits the fan it's nice to have a lot of toilet paper to clean up the mess. Like I said in my post if I had my druthers and probably should have added unlimited funds I would add all that. Life being what life is I do not, and agree with your response to my post. I think I did say I have an I-pad and 796 for back up, if I did not well I said it now.

In any case the real point of my post was I think we should use whatever is available to use. To discredit people who prefer GPS or people who hate GPS is not helpful. I think there are extremely good reasons to use both, and if anyone really feels that using GPS or modern electronics to get out of a sticky situation, or using GPS to fly is less manly, then I say that person is missing the value of GPS or is just saying that to be difficult or is too obstinate to see the reality of life. On the other hand those that say not using GPS to fly is overly dangerous, or inappropriate or put whatever negative comment here you want is missing the point of value of those devices as well or is just saying that to be ...

Certainly, if your plane does not have something, you cannot make use of it, but if it is there then it is stupid not to use it if it can help you.

Doug
 
There is one place where you get into trouble.

With your G1000, you get RAIM warnings. You get on-battery warnings. You get "AHRS failed" warnings.

Steam gauges have "NAV" flags and IDENT.

With an iPad, you get none of this. You might get a "low battery" warning, but what do you do about it? Otherwise, you just get a wrong answer. If you then use it to "get unlost," you make it worse, without realizing it.

I guess part of this is experience. I've had various sensors lie to me, all the time, in multiple contexts. I don't trust them without a crosscheck of some sort. It's just not true that wrong information is better than no information.
 
Here is the problem I have with most attitudes on this forum:

If you are a fan of GPS, it must mean you know nothing about DR, Pilotage, or VOR's. You're just an accident waiting for an equipment failure.
 
Here is the problem I have with most attitudes on this forum:

If you are a fan of GPS, it must mean you know nothing about DR, Pilotage, or VOR's. You're just an accident waiting for an equipment failure.

Nope. You misunderstood.

The objection is to the attitude "I have GPS, so that's never going to happen to me." Which is wrong.

If you can't fly without GPS, then you do have a problem with ded reckoning, pilotage, or VORs. You made the statement that you would land if your GPS went out. That's a problem, and that's why you caught flak for it. GPS can never be essential equipment.
 
Nope. You misunderstood.

The objection is to the attitude "I have GPS, so that's never going to happen to me." Which is wrong.

If you can't fly without GPS, then you do have a problem with ded reckoning, pilotage, or VORs. You made the statement that you would land if your GPS went out. That's a problem, and that's why you caught flak for it. GPS can never be essential equipment.

I said it I was purposely made to be lost in a way where I could not see the ground while getting lost, climbed and could not locate landmarks, could not contact flight following, lost a subset of my electronics, assumed my VOR's were out, had a possibility of my vacuum instruments malfunctioning, and also lost GPS, I would land at the closest airport I could find, as opposed to flying around to try and figure out where I was.

How that gets translated into I can't fly without GPS is beyond me.
 
I said it I was purposely made to be lost in a way where I could not see the ground while getting lost, climbed and could not locate landmarks, could not contact flight following, lost a subset of my electronics, assumed my VOR's were out, had a possibility of my vacuum instruments malfunctioning, and also lost GPS, I would land at the closest airport I could find, as opposed to flying around to try and figure out where I was.

How that gets translated into I can't fly without GPS is beyond me.

It must be nice living where all the airports are public use.

You have a sectional and an eyeball or two. Circle and figure it out. That's pilotage. If you can't do that, you can't do pilotage.

What if the "nearest airport" has a big white X painted on the threshold? Is it worth the risk of landing and hitting FOD on the runway, disabling your aircraft (or worse)? There are a lot of those.
 
Absent evidence to the contrary, navigation failures for most of us during most trips in VFR is going to be embarrassing or inconvenient - rarely fatal.
Rarely, yes, but a navigation error while VFR nearly was fatal for Jim Sheaffer and Troy Martin. But that's not the point. Either you're competent or you're not, and if you can't navigate without GPS or determine when your GPS is sending you the wrong way, you aren't a competent aircraft pilot. Whether the penalty for that is merely embarrassment, or a certificate suspension, or death is just an afterthought, like the old joke whose punchline is, "We've already determined what you are, young lady; we're only dickering over the price."
 
I said it I was purposely made to be lost in a way where I could not see the ground while getting lost, climbed and could not locate landmarks, could not contact flight following, lost a subset of my electronics, assumed my VOR's were out, had a possibility of my vacuum instruments malfunctioning, and also lost GPS, I would land at the closest airport I could find, as opposed to flying around to try and figure out where I was.
So how are you going to find that airport without basic DR/pilotage skills and a sectional chart? I know plenty of places in this country where an expanding square search will result in fuel exhaustion before finding a suitable airport.
 
That was what I would do, however I got a lot of flack in the other thread for that answer.

I don't think the flack was for that. It was mostly meant to read, "pretend that's not an option". I think that got lost in the other thread.

Hey, being on the ground is always better than being lost aloft, I don't think anyone was saying it wasn't.

The part you were missing was that you should try everything you can to know what airport you're landing at prior to just giving up and landing anyway.

You stated you'd "just find a small airport and land" and I think the more experienced crowd was thinking, "how would you find that airport?".

You later said you'd just overfly at 3000'. Sounds good right up until you realize your little airport you found is in the center of a Class C airspace and it extends to 4000' AGL. ;)

The country is dotted with airports, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll find yourself miraculously over one when its needed. :)

Jesse's student did, and you were commenting on the scenario given. That's ok, but Jesse's instruction to his student was to take the aircraft to Seward, NE and he knew if the student did all the right things, that's where they'd go. There was enough information and options available to the student to get there.

Whether they found themselves overhead some other airport was moot given the instructions of the scenario. The mental "game" in that scenario wasn't just to make the right decisions about being lost, but was to complete the flight at the requested location once the student found they were lost.

Realistic? Maybe not on a perfect VFR day. But the world can hand you things that might require you to overfly an airport and land only at another one further down the chart.

Here's how I've had that same type of scenario go down in the cockpit... when the instructor had something specific they wanted me to demonstrate in mind,

"Okay, first thing I'd do is climb."

"Overcast and you're not instrument current."

"Okay, let's look up an appropriate ATC frequency and see if they can locate us."

"Transponder doesn't seem to be working after the GPS failure."

"Let me check the DG here. Something seems wrong."

(Instructor slaps instrument cover over the DG...) "Looks like its processing like mad."

"Okay let's circle that water tower and see if there's a town name."

"Works for me."

"Looks like we're over, XYZ. It's about a 220 heading to where you want me to go. I could land here and get the airplane serviced, since it sure seems like a lot of stuff is failing."

"I see big yellow X's on the runway, don't you?" (Big grin...)

"Alright, 220 for... 18 minutes at this speed, and there's a big reservoir to the right of the course and a grain mill on the East side of the town where the airport is."

"Works for me."

Heh. The instructor gets to set the rules of the game. They can make it as difficult or easy as they like. the Private PTS says you can handle all of the above.

If they're looking for you to demonstrate something specific, expect more and more simulated "failures" as you run through the options, out loud. :)

Realistic? Doesn't really have to be. The goal was to get lost and figure out how to get "un-lost". The real world might just keep throwing you curve balls, and you're still PIC in an aloft airplane that needs to land at a specific place in this little scenario.

A little silly? Maybe. Only if you don't think you're up to the challenge. Real world XC flying may just throw you that many problems someday too, no matter how "unlikely" or "unrealistic". You just keep flying the plane. :)
 
So how are you going to find that airport without basic DR/pilotage skills and a sectional chart? I know plenty of places in this country where an expanding square search will result in fuel exhaustion before finding a suitable airport.

How do you do basic DR or pilotage, when you don't know where on the sectional you are?

As for finding an airport, I don't know. I am kind of new at this. I guess I would first just look. Out here, you see a lot of them at 6,000 feet.

If I could not find one, I would look for the biggest road, and follow it. The way the senario was setup, there is no way to know what direction you went.

Of course while I am looking for an airport, I will be trying to figure out where I am. When I find an airport, I will do a fly over so I can see if it's open, anyone is taking off, and the runway numbers. When I get the numbers, and all the landmarks around the airport, there is a good chance I will know where I am. I will tune the radio to the airport coms, and ask for a mic check, and see if anyone is listening.

I will do whatever I can to figure out where I am, but when all that stuff goes wrong, my gut feel is to put the plane on the ground, so I am in a much better position to asses my condition.

Because the first thing I said was "I will check my iPhone and iPad to see where I am", I must be an idiot who can't do anything else.
 
How do you do basic DR or pilotage, when you don't know where on the sectional you are?
You apply your basic DR skills to determine, based on your last known location, the time you were there, the time sincem and your heading and speed since then, a rough idea of your current location, and then use your pilotage and map reading skills to determine more precisely where on your chart you are. But before that, if you have those skills, you'll already know where you are because you've been following along on the chart even if you were using the GPS for primary navigation, and so you already will know where you are when the GPS does quit. Further, you will know very quickly if the GPS is leading you down the old garden path so you don't, like my friend, follow it off a figurative cliff.

As for finding an airport, I don't know. I am kind of new at this. I guess I would first just look. Out here, you see a lot of them at 6,000 feet.
Yes, you are new, and if you have any kind of decent instructor, you'll learn these skills before you make your first solo XC.
 
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Jaybird, just so we (me anyway) are all perfectly clear about which thought process to which you are referring, can you summarize it in one or two brief sentences?

Here ya go.....he's trolling, trying to stir up yet another argument that has been discussed ad naseum.
 
Some more thoughts on being lost while VFR.

As others have noted, you really should always have a vague idea where you are. When your GPS goes out you should know how far you were from your next waypoint and in what general direction... with that information, you should be able to figure out where you are on a sectional to one or two of the rectangles, and from THAT you can look for landmarks to refine your position.

What Jesse did, and it's a valid exercise, is force things to start lying to you, so the longer you are flying the more lost you get, because you're processing bad information and taking it as fact. There are ways around that - you check the DG versus the compass before you start reckoning. You listen to the voice that says "that's not right" and crosscheck/doublecheck all your assumptions.

Ok, you've tried everything you know, but you can't find your position on the chart. NONE of your electronics work, so you can't dial up a VOR, you can't call ATC, you can't even listen to the ball game on the ADF. You're looooooooost. If you spot an airport, try and identify it, and then, assuming you can't identify it and determine where you are, land on it (after flying a pattern and checking that it's open, and not covered in military aircraft). If you don't get unlost, then what's a bad situation will become an emergency situation when your fuel gets low.

The point of Jesse's exercise is only partially about getting lost. It's also about task management and prioritization, and most importantly in my opinion, about being the captain and NOT GIVING UP. Sooner or later a pilot is going to run into a situation where things go wrong. Maybe a little wrong, maybe a lot wrong. The most important part of being an aviator is to wear the four stripes on your soul, whether you wear them on your shirt or not. That's what "final authority for the safe conduct of the flight" means at its core.

Enough philosophy. Best wishes to all,
 
You apply your basic DR skills to determine, based on your last known location, the time you were there, the time sincem and your heading and speed since then, a rough idea of your current location, and then use your pilotage and map reading skills to determine more precisely where on your chart you are. But before that, if you have those skills, you'll already know where you are because you've been following along on the chart even if you were using the GPS for primary navigation, and so you already will know where you are when the GPS does quit. Further, you will know very quickly if the GPS is leading you down the old garden path so you don't, like my friend, follow it off a figurative cliff.

Yes, you are new, and if you have any kind of decent instructor, you'll learn these skills before you make your first solo XC.

The setup was under a hood for 30 minutes, with the CFI changing directions many times, on instruments he purposely made inaccurate.

The goal was to put a pilot in a situation where he had no clue where he was, and could not reason anything better then a radius of travel based on distance from last known location of 30 minutes ago.

And I have already done my solo XC, and I have a damn good CFI.
 
The setup was under a hood for 30 minutes, with the CFI changing directions many times, on instruments he purposely made inaccurate.

The goal was to put a pilot in a situation where he had no clue where he was, and could not reason anything better then a radius of travel based on distance from last known location of 30 minutes ago.

And I have already done my solo XC, and I have a damn good CFI.
That's pretty much a worst case scenario, not just a GPS failure. In that case, you use any and all tools you have available, including visual, VOR, GPS, and 121.5 to get found. However, that is far from the issue we were discussing, which was overreliance on GPS without developing and maintaining good basic DR/pilotage skills.
 
Reading all the posts in this thread aren't we are talking about a student that did not know how or when to correct his gyro by comparison to the wet compass.

It's yet to be determined if that was a student learning problem or a CFI's teaching problem.
 
And I am getting sick and tired of being told I don't know WTF I am doing, because I have an iPhone in my pocket.

I have been taught how to aviate without GPS, and I can do it as well as anyone else with the hours I have.
 
That's pretty much a worst case scenario, not just a GPS failure. In that case, you use any and all tools you have available, including visual, VOR, GPS, and 121.5 to get found. However, that is far from the issue we were discussing, which was overreliance on GPS without developing and maintaining good basic DR/pilotage skills.

This thread started, because because of this one:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53383
 
Are you taking the course or teaching it?

And I am getting sick and tired of being told I don't know WTF I am doing, because I have an iPhone in my pocket.

I have been taught how to aviate without GPS, and I can do it as well as anyone else with the hours I have.
 
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