Bad Students

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Pilot-To-Be

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Overall I have had good luck with my students, except one.

He’s an 18yr old high school senior who just graduated and is going to college to be a professional helicopter pilot. He wants to get his fixed wing rating to reduce the cost for the helicopter stuff.

I started with him in December and today, we are no further along than we were then. He won’t study, he oversleeps on lessons and we cancel, something always happens and - he’s $12k+ deep with zero to show for it. There’s no motivation, especially since his parents are footing the bill. Now he’s gone for another week but wants to fly again next weekend. We’ve gone over ATOMATOFLAMES probably 20 times over the last 5-6 months and still can’t remember it. Unless something drastically changes, ain’t no way I’ll have him done by the time he leaves for college in august and he’ll be $15k plus deep by then.

What to do?
 
Have a very, very frank discussion with him. If that doesn't wake him up then drop him.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
We’ve gone over ATOMATOFLAMES probably 20 times over the last 5-6 months
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Why? I don't know what that stands for. I've never known what it stands for, so I assume it's not something critical for a private pilot to know.

You've certainly raised some legitimate concerns, and no one could fault you if you fire him. But when my enthusiasm and commitment to lessons was flagging as a highschooler, my CFI focused on some of the more fun aspects of flying and got my blood pumping again. Drilling inscrutable mnemonics isn't going to accomplish that.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Overall I have had good luck with my students, except one.

He’s an 18yr old high school senior who just graduated and is going to college to be a professional helicopter pilot. He wants to get his fixed wing rating to reduce the cost for the helicopter stuff.

I started with him in December and today, we are no further along than we were then. He won’t study, he oversleeps on lessons and we cancel, something always happens and - he’s $12k+ deep with zero to show for it. There’s no motivation, especially since his parents are footing the bill. Now he’s gone for another week but wants to fly again next weekend. We’ve gone over ATOMATOFLAMES probably 20 times over the last 5-6 months and still can’t remember it. Unless something drastically changes, ain’t no way I’ll have him done by the time he leaves for college in august and he’ll be $15k plus deep by then.

What to do?
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Wow, an high school student without adult study skills and poor work ethic. The parents should be madder than a stepped on cat with flight school and CFI. While you were training the lad, do you think his high school was providing grade reports to the parents? If he was late of not showing up, would the HS let the parents know?

When you are dealing with adolescents and/or other people’s money, you need to provide the training structure and the standards. You should have addressed the issues 5 months ago.

I have trained a lot of young folks with various grants and parents footing the bill. If they are not meeting the training requirements, the folk providing the funds are advised early in the training so they aren’t wasting their resources.

While you didn’t mention it, sometimes transportation to get to the airport is an obstacle for many HS students and they are too embarrassed to admit it. Especially if there is a large travel distance.
 
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Lindberg said:
Why? I don't know what that stands for. I've never known what it stands for, so I assume it's not something critical for a private pilot to know.
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91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
 
Is your student flying the plane with co ordination? Holding altitude in turns? Making smooth takeoffs and landings?

The questions for the ground written are important, but actually flying the plane are your prime obligations.

My CFI did not teach me most of the written material, I read books for that, and attended a formal ground school.

In your meeting with his parents, be careful that you do not offend them or the student, you may have some miss understanding on your side.

Not a CFI, but a retired Senior Technical Training Supervisor, with a lot of experience with both outstanding and problem students. One of my problem students rose to be a quality foreman.
 
RyanB said:
91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
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Honestly, I get lost in atomatoflames. But damnit if I know that stuff is 91.205
 
RyanB said:
91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
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Some people just don't do great with mnemonic devices- I'm terrible with them but I still know what's required equipment. I just might struggle a bit to put it into ATOMATOFLAMES when asked in that context.
 
RyanB said:
91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
Click to expand...
Of course, but that does not require memorizing a contrived acronym.

Nauga,
and his FIGJAM
 
You can't give a student motivation. It's a fundamental element that a learner has to have.

I wouldn't talk to the parents. The kid is 18 & needs to be accountable. I've had several students like that in my 47 years as a CFI. Many of them eventually mature & turn themselves around.

Since I had to fund my own way it's difficult for me understand this way of thinking. The kid sounds spoiled to me.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
He’s an 18yr old high school senior who just graduated and is going to college to be a professional helicopter pilot. He wants to get his fixed wing rating to reduce the cost for the helicopter stuff.
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First, is it his idea to be a helicopter pilot?
No interest in the fixed wing other than to "save someone else's money"?
So, the kid is not invested in this whole fixed wing thing or perhaps flying in general?

Sometimes all you can to is to "fail" them.
 
cowman said:
Some people just don't do great with mnemonic devices- I'm terrible with them but I still know what's required equipment. I just might struggle a bit to put it into ATOMATOFLAMES when asked in that context.
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nauga said:
Of course, but that does not require memorizing a contrived acronym.

Nauga,
and his FIGJAM
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Memorizing the acronym isn’t the requirement, but learning the material is. The acronym is simply a way to make it easier to remember. Show me that you know the required information and that’s all I care about as a CFI.
 
Not a word about flight skills or ADM. he can memorize the stupid acronym right before the test. Why does he need you to nag him about that?
 
Salty said:
Not a word about flight skills or ADM. he can memorize the stupid acronym right before the test. Why does he need you to nag him about that?
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As I said, we are no further along than we were 6 months ago. His handling skills aren’t great and very little improvement has occurred. It’s also not a ME problem, I’ve put him with several other CFI’s as well. Same result.
 
RyanB said:
Memorizing the acronym isn’t the requirement, but learning the material is. The acronym is simply a way to make it easier to remember. Show me that you know the required information and that’s all I care about as a CFI.
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Do they need to learn it to certify an airplane from scratch by memory, or do they need to know where to find it when there’s a question?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Do they need to learn it to certify an airplane from scratch by memory, or do they need to know where to find it when there’s a question?
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The latter, which is why I mentioned the reg and not the acronym.
 
RyanB said:
The latter, which is why I mentioned the reg and not the acronym.
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Sorry…quoted the wrong person. :rolleyes1:
Pilot-To-Be said:
We’ve gone over ATOMATOFLAMES probably 20 times over the last 5-6 months and still can’t remember it.
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Do they need to learn it to certify an airplane from scratch by memory, or do they need to know where to find it when there’s a question?
 
RyanB said:
The acronym is simply a way to make it easier to remember.
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You'd think so, but (for example) too many people still think one of the M's stands for "Magnetic Compass"

Nauga,
fluxed up
 
nauga said:
You'd think so, but too many people still think one of the M's stands for "Magnetic Compass"

Nauga,
fluxed up
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One of the Ms is green for the right wingtip, and one of the Ms is red for the left wingtip. That’s how you remember nav light colors…you put red and green M&Ms on the glare shield to remind you.
 
nauga said:
You'd think so, but (for example) too many people still think one of the M's stands for "Magnetic Compass"

Nauga,
fluxed up
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One of the M’s is for Magnetic Compass… er Magnetic Direction Indicator technically.
 
RyanB said:
One of the M’s is for Magnetic Compass… er Magnetic Direction Indicator technically.
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One of the M's is for magnetic direction indicator. Not magnetic compass. This is not a technicality.

Nauga,
two for one
 
cowman said:
Some people just don't do great with mnemonic devices- I'm terrible with them but I still know what's required equipment. I just might struggle a bit to put it into ATOMATOFLAMES when asked in that context.
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Same. 3 A's, 2T's, 2 O's... Did I say oil pressure or oil temp? Dammit, I'm just looking up 91.205
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Yeah, you’re probably right and that’s my fault.
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Nah. I'd say milk that paycheck for all it's worth. He don't care, you don't care. At the end of the day, you're the one that signs him off for the checkride. If he ain't frustrated, neither should you. You give him what he gives you.
 
I remember reading about stage checks in training, I think I just learned why some schools have these in place.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I remember reading about stage checks in training, I think I just learned why some schools have these in place.
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What happens if you flunk one? Do they boot you from the school? Can’t imagine so. I am not sure how a stage check would change this scenario, especially when the student hasn’t accomplished a stage to be checked on lol.
 
Lindberg said:
Why? I don't know what that stands for. I've never known what it stands for, so I assume it's not something critical for a private pilot to know.
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I’m a retired airline Captain. My first aviation job was as a CFI and I never heard of ATOMATOFLAMES before so I definitely don’t know what it means. I guess the OP wouldn’t want me as a student.
 
RyanB said:
What happens if you flunk one? Do they boot you from the school? Can’t imagine so. I am not sure how a stage check would change this scenario, especially when the student hasn’t accomplished a stage to be checked on lol.
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If the training organization cannot accurately identify students who are struggling, in a timely manner, there is no way to improve on their situation. Stage checks could do that, and I’d imagine a good school would have developed a plan to resolve their issues (in this case maybe a boot to the backside lol)
 
RyanB said:
91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
Click to expand...
I guess I should give back my certs then. I just know where to find that info, but never bothered to memorize all of it. On a checkride or in real life, I'd look it up.

BTW, which of the 'Ps' in ATOMATOFLAMES stands for "pyrotechnic signaling device"?

Relevant to the thread, everyone learns differently and requires something different to engage them. Maybe this kid is just a lazy sack. Maybe he requires a different approach.
 
RyanB said:
91.205 is pretty basic and honestly should be critical to know for you to assess general airworthiness. Any private pilot and higher should know the required instruments for day and night VFR.
Click to expand...
By "know," do you mean memorize? Why?
 
RyanB said:
What happens if you flunk one? Do they boot you from the school? Can’t imagine so. I am not sure how a stage check would change this scenario, especially when the student hasn’t accomplished a stage to be checked on lol.
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Open your imagination. Stage check failures is poor academic performance. For stage checks, which include the flight checks and the ground checks, the college I am employed allows only 1 retest of the all stage checks in the instrument, commercial, and CFI courses. There are about 15 flight checks and ground checks. The student gets one flunk/15. A 2nd instance of poor academic performance results in dismissal from the program and any tuition the student paid toward the flight hours that semester is forfeited.

The student must also complete all the training in a course within 2 semesters. So the student is also out on time for poor academic performance.


I know that sounds like tough love, but in a professional pilot training program the airlines are not going to treat their new employees in training any differently. Professional pilot training is expensive. Poor performance and you are gone.
 
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Young Master Braxton/Brayden/Bryson doesn't have parents, he has friends with money who are precisely one generation older than he is. You get paid to fly and babysit. You get hours and cash. Assess no-show fees so you're never hosed. Teach the stuff and try to find a way to capture his tiny ember of attention span long enough to keep it interesting and educational. Failing any of that, at some point you just gotta say F it, we're flying out for a $400 hamburger courtesy of friend mom and friend dad. Over and over and over.

Enjoy it. :)
 
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