Avoiding Bravo Lateral Boundaries

[azpilot]

How close is 'too close' to get to a Bravo Airspace lateral boundary?

I went flying yesterday. I was taking a friend and his son on a sight seeing trip. I put a link in to show the basic flight path in skyvector. The flight started and ended at KCHD and runs clockwise from KCHD.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.611292...154W 3337N11143W GRINE 3326N11122W VPREN KCHD

After making the bravo transition Northbound, approach dumped me off flight following. I was at 4500 feet. I paid close attention to make sure I didn't violate the 90/40 shelf just south of KSDL. I was using the G530 in the airplane, I was watching the visual reference (Shea Blvd and the 101 freeway) and I was watching my flight path on my ipad. I even went back and looked at the ground track in flightradar24.com. The closest I got to the shelf was about a mile away.

So my question is, how close is 'too close' to get to a Bravo lateral boundary? Is one mile a good safe distance? Am I being overly paranoid?

 

[murphey]

You're not being paranoid. Your GPS track and what is "official" on ATC radar is not always the same, and that radar is what is used to ask you to "call this number". I've heard of (but can't confirm) that a few times the GPS track has been used to argue ATC was wrong, but again, this is just folklore.

Of course you can always call ATC and ask for clearance into Class B for short time and short distance from the edge, just in case. I've done that in Denver when I took friends sightseeing the Halloween mazes during October. There's 4-5 in the area, and a couple under Class B. Because the wanted pictures, I was on FF, let ATC know what I was doing (we did a few orbits around two of them) and asked ATC for clearance into Bravo, just in case. Nice day, not a lot of traffic, sure, no problem.

 

[SbestCFII]

One mile can be eaten away in 30 seconds at 120 KTS. If you're VFR and want to stay out side the lateral boundaries to sightsee, set the Class B airport as your WPT and just stay at least 30 NM out. That'll keep you outside the lateral boundaries by keeping you outside of the 30 NM Mode C veil.

 

[Banjo33]

About a mile is probably as close as I would get too, short of getting a clearance. I’m personally unfamiliar with the operating characteristics of their radar, but was told at least once that there can be a 3-4 second position update by the radar, so the algorithm is predictive during that time. Hopefully a controller will chime in and correct that if it’s wrong.

On another note, I flew 3 flights out of IWA yesterday. If you heard any “Bobcat” callsigns, that was our group clobbering the airspace and approach frequencies getting up and back from the mountains NW through SE of the valley all day. It is ridiculously busy around there...I don’t know how you all can stand to deal with that day in and out, lol.

 

[Clark1961]

I’m more paranoid about vertical separation than horizontal. I usually use 500 ft below as a good target. A mile lateral separation would be nice but I’m closer than that when I take off. Gotta watch the ground track pretty close and know the landmarks. When in doubt err on the side of caution, big caution.

 

[flyingron]

Didn't Phil Boyer's wife get one of the GPS-exonerations?

 

[Maciej]

I've gotten the dreaded copy a phone number for doing this, was about ~1mi outside of a Class D.

 

[rocketflyer84]

I’ve heard “My radar scope trumps your iPad” barked at pilots saying “but my screen says” to ATC on the radio.

Personally I’d keep at least two miles out and ideally be talking to them.

 

[azpilot]

About a mile is probably as close as I would get too, short of getting a clearance. I’m personally unfamiliar with the operating characteristics of their radar, but was told at least once that there can be a 3-4 second position update by the radar, so the algorithm is predictive during that time. Hopefully a controller will chime in and correct that if it’s wrong.

On another note, I flew 3 flights out of IWA yesterday. If you heard any “Bobcat” callsigns, that was our group clobbering the airspace and approach frequencies getting up and back from the mountains NW through SE of the valley all day. It is ridiculously busy around there...I don’t know how you all can stand to deal with that day in and out, lol.

I did not hear any "Bobcat" call signs, but I'm glad to hear you were getting some good flying in.

With respect to how I "deal with that day in and out", I was trained in that environment, so it's no big deal. I did all of my primary flight training at KCHD, so it has just been quite normal for me.

 

[Banjo33]

Fair enough. There were about 15 of us and nearly all flew 3 times from about 0800-1400 plus maybe six Harriers. We probably made it much busier than normal. Definitely some of the busier airspace we normally work in.

I must say though, it sure is scenic in that area from the air!

 

[azpilot]

Fair enough. There were about 15 of us and nearly all flew 3 times from about 0800-1400 plus maybe six Harriers. We probably made it much busier than normal. Definitely some of the busier airspace we normally work in.

I must say though, it sure is scenic in that area from the air!

I live very close to IWA. I love seeing the harriers flying over my house. Just the other day, as I was getting on the 202 freeway, there were two harriers landing in tandem on 12L. It was a glorious sight to behold.

 

[Banjo33]

Very fun to fly but irritatingly noisy, lol.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

My house is about .7 miles outside the Class B SFC ring. No big deal. Stay east of the High School.

A miss is a good as a mister.

 

[Brad Z]

I wonder how these folks who say to stay 1-2 miles away fly the NY Hudson River corridor?

Heck, flying into my home airport I come as close as close as a 1/4 mile of bravo when flying right traffic for runway 24.

The answer is it depends. It's better to be talking than not. It's rare that some one gets busted scraping the edge of controlled airspace. Boyer's wife's situation was a little different in that she was dealing with the Washington ADIZ, at a time where mostly insanity reigned supreme.

 

[James331]

One mile can be eaten away in 30 seconds at 120 KTS. If you're VFR and want to stay out side the lateral boundaries to sightsee, set the Class B airport as your WPT and just stay at least 30 NM out. That'll keep you outside the lateral boundaries by keeping you outside of the 30 NM Mode C veil.

At my old job I would skirt up the side of a restricted that was closely monitored, I'd get a few tenths off it, as long as you're not in it you're good.

If I didn't know the area, I'd give a mile or more.

 

[jordane93]

You can always get flight following if you think you’re cutting it too close.

 

[luvflyin]

You can always get flight following if you think you’re cutting it too close.

Flight following in itself isn't going to save you. They can warn you if you're getting close. But if they don't, it does not relieve you of the responsibility to stay out if you don't have a clearance. And if you do, they gotcha. They know exactly who you are. Not like observing a 1200 squawking 'target' cross the line and then trying to track it down.

 

[BillTIZ]

One mile can be eaten away in 30 seconds at 120 KTS. If you're VFR and want to stay out side the lateral boundaries to sightsee, set the Class B airport as your WPT and just stay at least 30 NM out. That'll keep you outside the lateral boundaries by keeping you outside of the 30 NM Mode C veil.

Of most Class B, there is at least one and I think a second that the Class B exceeds 30nm veil.

 

[Hank S]

How close is 'too close' to get to a Bravo Airspace lateral boundary?

I went flying yesterday. I was taking a friend and his son on a sight seeing trip. I put a link in to show the basic flight path in skyvector. The flight started and ended at KCHD and runs clockwise from KCHD.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.61129295251703,-111.88144795179458&chart=121&zoom=2&fpl= KCHD VPAWG PHX 3332N11200W 3336N11154W 3337N11143W GRINE 3326N11122W VPREN KCHD

After making the bravo transition Northbound, approach dumped me off flight following. I was at 4500 feet. I paid close attention to make sure I didn't violate the 90/40 shelf just south of KSDL. I was using the G530 in the airplane, I was watching the visual reference (Shea Blvd and the 101 freeway) and I was watching my flight path on my ipad. I even went back and looked at the ground track in flightradar24.com. The closest I got to the shelf was about a mile away.

So my question is, how close is 'too close' to get to a Bravo lateral boundary? Is one mile a good safe distance? Am I being overly paranoid?

Since ATL has NEVER let me into the Bravo, I've gotten quite good at this the last few years. I just zoom in my 430W to about 10nm scale, and keep the green line on the screen visible at the wingtip on the screen. I'm pretty tired of them always adding 30 minutes each way when I have to pass by!

Since neither your ipad nor my Samsung tablet are WAAS devices, I'd stay a little further away if that's your primary navigational device . . . . .

 

[Steve Kanefsky]

If you're VFR and want to stay out side the lateral boundaries to sightsee, set the Class B airport as your WPT and just stay at least 30 NM out.

My instructor likes to tune one of the NAV radios to the SFO VOR, which lets us keep an eye on how close we are to the Class B independently of any waypoints we've setup.

 

[Maciej]

I wonder how these folks who say to stay 1-2 miles away fly the NY Hudson River corridor?

Heck, flying into my home airport I come as close as close as a 1/4 mile of bravo when flying right traffic for runway 24.

The answer is it depends. It's better to be talking than not. It's rare that some one gets busted scraping the edge of controlled airspace. Boyer's wife's situation was a little different in that she was dealing with the Washington ADIZ, at a time where mostly insanity reigned supreme.

I’m based out of KCDW and N07, it was one of our local airport’s controllers that I had a chat with.

 

[mscard88]

Since ATL has NEVER let me into the Bravo, I've gotten quite good at this the last few years. I just zoom in my 430W to about 10nm scale, and keep the green line on the screen visible at the wingtip on the screen. I'm pretty tired of them always adding 30 minutes each way when I have to pass by!

Since neither your ipad nor my Samsung tablet are WAAS devices, I'd stay a little further away if that's your primary navigational device . . . . .

Go over the top Hank, or remain VFR and fly under the various sectors. Or fly at 3am, not busy then and maybe they'll allow you direct.

 

[Palmpilot]

My instructor likes to tune one of the NAV radios to the SFO VOR, which lets us keep an eye on how close we are to the Class B independently of any waypoints we've setup.

I like to do that too, but that plan's not going to work anymore if they implement the airspace changes that were proposed in the past year or so.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I've gotten the dreaded copy a phone number for doing this, was about ~1mi outside of a Class D.

Did they claim you had busted the D or were just unhappy that you were "too close".

 

[JScarry]

Of most Class B, there is at least one and I think a second that the Class B exceeds 30nm veil.

That seems just wrong to me, but Seattle is one and Atlanta is another. Lots of them have coincident Class B and Mode C veil.

 

[Kritchlow]

Another perspective... Airliners are suppose to stay in the B during terminal ops partially for separation. We don’t have all the high tech fancy gizmos many GA airplanes do, so cannot cut it razor thin.
Obviously the GA airplane may be legal in most of these situations, but imo it never hurts to give the airliners a few miles buffer.

 

[BillTIZ]

That seems just wrong to me, but Seattle is one and Atlanta is another. Lots of them have coincident Class B and Mode C veil.

LAS tried to push out to 40nm and push the floors down during the last Class B redesign. We were able to hold them to 23nm and keep the floors up. The airlines helped as they did not want to be below 10K MSL (7K AGL) 40 miles out.

The new high efficiency jets and wings do not help. They don’t like to come downhill and slow down at the same time. More than once ATC has failed to clear an airliner down early enough to be on profile by the FAF, forcing the Capt to declare a go around.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Airliners are suppose to stay in the B during terminal ops

Actually, they don't - at least according to controllers that I've talked to. When things back up, they send them outside to get in line - the big problem being that they have to use up radio time telling each one that they are leaving B airspace.

 

[Maciej]

Did they claim you had busted the D or were just unhappy that you were "too close".

Initially they claimed I busted and told me I went a heinous route, I immediately denied that and said then they tagged the wrong plane because that's absolute bull. All of a sudden I was on hold for ten minutes and they came back and said, alright you didn't actually breach, BUT you were very close. Face palm moment. Either way I apologized, filled out the NASA form, and counted my blessings that I didn't get a prostate exam.

 

[mscard88]

Actually, they don't - at least according to controllers that I've talked to. When things back up, they send them outside to get in line - the big problem being that they have to use up radio time telling each one that they are leaving B airspace.

Yup. That was the case in ATL too.

 

[Kritchlow]

Actually, they don't - at least according to controllers that I've talked to. When things back up, they send them outside to get in line - the big problem being that they have to use up radio time telling each one that they are leaving B airspace.

That’s correct. I’m talking normal situations.

 

[jordane93]

Flight following in itself isn't going to save you. They can warn you if you're getting close. But if they don't, it does not relieve you of the responsibility to stay out if you don't have a clearance. And if you do, they gotcha. They know exactly who you are. Not like observing a 1200 squawking 'target' cross the line and then trying to track it down.

Should have said FF/Class B clearance. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Kritchlow]

Actually, they don't - at least according to controllers that I've talked to. When things back up, they send them outside to get in line - the big problem being that they have to use up radio time telling each one that they are leaving B airspace.

I think you’re missing my point. Airliners ARE suppose to stay in the bravo unless ATC clears us otherwise. That may sound odd seeing as though we fly IFR virtually all of the time, but my point is on a visual approach. Some bravos get very complex shape-wise with small grooves and shelves. If we are cleared for a visual we must stay in the bravo on our way to the runway. With airlines antiquated (as compared to much of GA) avionics we may make mistakes and occasionally slip out. Most of the time we are using VOR radial and DME to stay in a complex shape bravo.