ATTN Shop and AC owners: there is no MX shortage. Just a pay one.

Bob Noel said:
I'm confused. I'm not sure how the market would get smaller. The airplane still exists, there are still the same number of owners. Just not the same owners.

(but, yes, economics isn't quite as simple as we wish it was)
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I think that he's assuming that some of those "marginal" airframes would just rot away at their tie-downs, due to the cost of maintenance exceeding the value of the plane.

We see that today with a lot of older GA planes, where the cost to bring them up to current standards being higher than the market price of a "restored" example. I'll put probably $150K into my J35 with paint, interior, and a partial avionics upgrade; added to the original acquisition cost, I'll be unable to ever recoup my "investment". If the price to do that work goes up by 20%, I would be even further upside-down. Now, over time the prices would adjust to account for the higher costs, but there certainly would be some "lost" planes in addition to the owners who give up.

That said, expecting a trained, certified A&P/IA to work for less than the pay of a fast food shop manager seems wrong to me, particularly when our lives are literally in their hands.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I think that he's assuming that some of those "marginal" airframes would just rot away at their tie-downs, due to the cost of maintenance exceeding the value of the plane.
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There will also be more "deferred" maintenance causing zillions of planes to fall from the sky into a bunch of nunnerys.
 
JOhnH said:
There will also be more "deferred" maintenance causing zillions of planes to fall from the sky into a bunch of nunnerys.
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LOL....nice hyperbole.

Honestly, though, there are already a lot of older spam cans sitting and corroding away due to repair costs. It's not unreasonable to opine that a higher mx cost would increase the number of derelict airframes.
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm confused. I'm not sure how the market would get smaller. The airplane still exists, there are still the same number of owners. Just not the same owners.

(but, yes, economics isn't quite as simple as we wish it was)
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If the local owner sells to a non local as often happens. Then yes the local market has shrunk.

Even if it stays in the general area chances are it's not going to be based at the same airport that you have a captive market.
 
My A&P/IA tried to sell for 3 years with no takers. He finally just shut down. Now there is no maintenance on my field, except for my hangar neighbor A&P. But I'm not too sure I want to trust my life or my wife's life to him. I'd pay more for a good A&P for sure, but it would probably hasten the day when I give it up and sell.
 
pfarber said:
I posted a M. Busch video where he echoed the exact same points I make.
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I am told that Busch has never actually worked as a mechanic. That implies that he cannot know firsthand about some of the stuff he talks about. And you have never worked in a small-aircraft shop either, have you?
pfarber said:
I ran a very sucessfull business. Not sure why you think you are insulting me. A few million in profits is a failure? Wow.
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You made a few million and did not retire early? Why? Why would you work at a low-end job in an airline shop?
 
pfarber said:
Owning your job (the scenario you posted) is never going increase MX pay. I've asked you SPECIFICALLY at LEAST TWICE to give me YOUR SOLUTION and all I can see are goal posts being moved.... now you're saying its not about 'how can you increase rates/profits/billable hours' to oh, the poor 60 year old MX is simply living his life.
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Except you are the one that stated there is no mechanic shortage and that paying more money will increase the number mechanics wanting to enter the recreational aircraft market. I stated there is a mechanic shortage based on industry reports and that it was more than a money issue. So my solution is moot, since I don’t agree with your premise. But what I really find interesting, is you believe my posted shop scenario is a bad business plan even though that “60 year old MX” did it for 40 years. So, do you really think he spent 40 years working on recreational aircraft only to pay himself $25/hr for that length of time?

JOhnH said:
My A&P/IA tried to sell for 3 years with no takers.
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This is the main issue vs money in most cases. The mx side changed dramatically after the 1980s as the recreational aircraft numbers plummeted and the commercial aircraft numbers steadily rose after deregulation. The mx shop scenario I posted above is a composite of 2 similar shops as your APIA had, which could not find a buyer either. Unfortunately, the list of potential buyers for these types of shops is very limited now, so unless it sits at a "strategic" location targeted by the larger mx shops, or you have someone wanting to relocate to these areas the only option is to close.
 
Racerx said:
Well yeah. But not the market for AP on field who most likely just lost a client.
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But a hangar may have opened up and he may gain a new client.

The market isn't static. Planes and clients come and go from airports all the time. Empty hangars don't last long at my home drome; the waiting list is over a year long.

The real concern isn't a client selling his plane because of a shop rate. It's a competitor who charges less, especially the A&P working from his truck, with no shop overhead.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Now you think an A&P should work for nothing?
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What part of 'WOULD TURN A GOOD PROFIT' means 'work for nothing'? Are you part of the 'buy high' and 'sell low' club?:loco:

You do understand the word PROFIT, don't you? You do understand that you don't get paid until the thing you want to sell is in a sellable condition?

Me use small words now, no make you think hard: Ogg buy bad car. Ogg make car good. Ogg sell car to BARG. Ogg get money when Barg buy car.

Will the class require an MSPAINT flowchart?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Your inability to stay on topic is legendary.
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When you're stuck hearding cats it tends to happen.

Seriously just today a person posted that an AnP that sells a plane he fixed up FOR A PROFIT is working for 'free'.

Its more akin to playing wack-a-mole.

See you got me off topic. Well done sir. Well done.

Also, let me hear your ideas for getting more MX in GA. Can't say money, that's mine. I'll start a timer and see how long it takes for a reasonable answer from you.
 
pfarber said:
What part of 'WOULD TURN A GOOD PROFIT' means 'work for nothing'? Are you part of the 'buy high' and 'sell low' club?:loco:

You do understand the word PROFIT, don't you? You do understand that you don't get paid until the thing you want to sell is in a sellable condition?

Me use small words now, no make you think hard: Ogg buy bad car. Ogg make car good. Ogg sell car to BARG. Ogg get money when Barg buy car.

Will the class require an MSPAINT flowchart?
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You said this:

pfarber said:
Granted not all AC are 'flipable' but a clapped out 172 set up for VFR with a re-freshed interior and paint would turn a good profit if the work is done by an AnP for the cost of parts.
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You did not specify who the owner of the airplane was.

Moreover, your lack of small-aircraft maintenance experience is showing. Parts are not cheap, and those costs are the reason why so many "clapped-out" airplanes end up in the salvage yards. If there was money to be made in refurbishing these things, mechanics would be doing it on their own time. But they're not. They know the costs of all that stuff.

A clapped-out airplane needs an overhauled engine. And no, not just rings and bearings; it needs NDI on everything. It will need new valves and probably guides. If the cylinder is worn beyond service limits, it needs resizing to oversize, meaning new pistons, too. Without valve grinding equipment the mechanic is out of luck there. Without a rigid hone, he's out of luck on the resizing, too. If the crank is scored up or below limits it needs regrinding; that requires a crank grinder (now very scarce and expensive) and re-nitriding (also scarce). All this is the reason Lycoming and Continental just use all-new parts and be done with it. They know that there will be potential failures due to fatigue and thermal cycles. A new cam and lifters is normal for overhaul. Mags and carb need overhauling, and in the mags just about everything is replaced, everything except the case and rotor. So new mags are pretty much standard. And also, of course, the mechanic is likely to find that the engine has already been "overhauled" on the cheap, and everything is worn way beyond service limits because it barely qualified when it was overhauled.

The airframe will have cracks in numerous places that will require repair. Ask me how I know. Paint and interior are not cheap at all. Ask me how I know that, too. 172s prior to about 1970 had flat-leaf gear springs that are famous for corrosion pitting, and only very limited dressing is permitted lest the heat-treated layer is destroyed along with the shot-peened layer. Cessna has extensive instructions on that. Used gear legs in good condition are as scarce as hen's teeth. Cessna hasn't made them in decades. Old airplanes are full of ancient instruments that no longer work reliably and accurately, and of course obsolete radios are everywhere, and new avionics are expensive.

There have been too many old airplanes refurbished and the owner cannot come near recouping his costs even if he did most of the work himself. It's worse if he does all that work and spends all that money and has a 50-year-old VFR-only airplane to sell at the end of it all.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
You said this:


You did not specify who the owner of the airplane was.

Moreover, your lack of small-aircraft maintenance experience is showing. Parts are not cheap, and those costs are the reason why so many "clapped-out" airplanes end up in the salvage yards. If there was money to be made in refurbishing these things, mechanics would be doing it on their own time. But they're not. They know the costs of all that stuff.

A clapped-out airplane needs an overhauled engine. And no, not just rings and bearings; it needs NDI on everything. It will need new valves and probably guides. If the cylinder is worn beyond service limits, it needs resizing to oversize, meaning new pistons, too. Without valve grinding equipment the mechanic is out of luck there. Without a rigid hone, he's out of luck on the resizing, too. If the crank is scored up or below limits it needs regrinding; that requires a crank grinder (now very scarce and expensive) and re-nitriding (also scarce). All this is the reason Lycoming and Continental just use all-new parts and be done with it. They know that there will be potential failures due to fatigue and thermal cycles. A new cam and lifters is normal for overhaul. Mags and carb need overhauling, and in the mags just about everything is replaced, everything except the case and rotor. So new mags are pretty much standard. And also, of course, the mechanic is likely to find that the engine has already been "overhauled" on the cheap, and everything is worn way beyond service limits because it barely qualified when it was overhauled.

The airframe will have cracks in numerous places that will require repair. Ask me how I know. Paint and interior are not cheap at all. Ask me how I know that, too. 172s prior to about 1970 had flat-leaf gear springs that are famous for corrosion pitting, and only very limited dressing is permitted lest the heat-treated layer is destroyed along with the shot-peened layer. Cessna has extensive instructions on that. Used gear legs in good condition are as scarce as hen's teeth. Cessna hasn't made them in decades. Old airplanes are full of ancient instruments that no longer work reliably and accurately, and of course obsolete radios are everywhere, and new avionics are expensive.

There have been too many old airplanes refurbished and the owner cannot come near recouping his costs even if he did most of the work himself. It's worse if he does all that work and spends all that money and has a 50-year-old VFR-only airplane to sell at the end of it all.
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Wow way to make up stuff. I mean if you post that everything bad than can happen, does, then (WAIT FOR IT) there is no profit. DUH

Just like ANY flip (house, car, antique etc)... the money is made when you BUY IT, not when sold. If you don't comprehend that one simple fact then please keep blathering on about if, ands and buts.

Remember, buy low and sell high.

Try not to derail the original topic anymore.

So what is YOUR PLAN to get more MX into GA?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Given that it’ll just send you off on another tangent, I don’t see a point.
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Its OK, you can admit that I'm right. There is nothing in GA to offer experienced people to move INTO GA. I would guess that new out of school folks would be happy to get $25/hr (lol no, they wouldn't) esp if they have student loans.

If you want to work Warbirds, you can always take that airline PTO/holiday time and volunteer for a few weeks or a month.

You might find a shop that would take you part time.. but I would recommend NOT working for a shop unless they offer medical because if you get hurt moonlighting, your main source of income (and lets face it, legacy pay is starts you at around $80-90k) is gone.

Let me know what GA shop is going to top you out at $140kish in 6-7 years. With flight benefits, 401K, discounts to just about everything and oh yeah, medical.

ANd no, 'love of airplanes' doesn't pay a single bill.
 
pfarber said:
There is nothing in GA to offer experienced people to move INTO GA.
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And this is where you continue to show your lack of experience. GA, in general, is booming outside of the Part 91 recreational side of the category and those other GA mx providers are paying as good and, in some cases, better than the 121 side. The problem to get experienced mechanics to venture into the recreational market is more than just money as its a lifestyle change as well, which unless there's a personal reason to move away from their existing job location, most prefer to finish their career in the current location.

pfarber said:
Let me know what GA shop is going to top you out at $140kish in 6-7 years.
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Again, your $25/hr wage is only applicable to entry level jobs at the Part 91 recreational level. The FBOs in my region pay closer to the average of $40 for a 10-year experienced mechanic, or higher if they have a lot of turbine work to stay competitive. Whats interesting is the one-man shop example I used above, which you couldn't answer any questions about, was based on a real shop who paid himself $70/hr that is higher than most airline basic top-out wages. So, perhaps stick to your regional airline gig and when you finally qualify to take your IA test, then perhaps you venture out and see what really happens on the recreational side of the fence.
 
Dan Thomas said:
You're not in GA yourself. You can start helping by quitting your airline job and going to work for a GA shop.

Right?
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Have you read a single post I made? I'm gonna say no. I say the ONLY reason no one is going GA is MONEY.

Some rando then blathers 'you should go GA'.

I think you actually may need an MS PAINT image:

DUH.png
 
Bell206 said:
And this is where you continue to show your lack of experience. GA, in general, is booming outside of the Part 91 recreational side of the category and those other GA mx providers are paying as good and, in some cases, better than the 121 side. The problem to get experienced mechanics to venture into the recreational market is more than just money as its a lifestyle change as well, which unless there's a personal reason to move away from their existing job location, most prefer to finish their career in the current location.


Again, your $25/hr wage is only applicable to entry level jobs at the Part 91 recreational level. The FBOs in my region pay closer to the average of $40 for a 10-year experienced mechanic, or higher if they have a lot of turbine work to stay competitive. Whats interesting is the one-man shop example I used above, which you couldn't answer any questions about, was based on a real shop who paid himself $70/hr that is higher than most airline basic top-out wages. So, perhaps stick to your regional airline gig and when you finally qualify to take your IA test, then perhaps you venture out and see what really happens on the recreational side of the fence.
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Another moving of the goal posts :rolleyes:

GA is NOT 135 or corporate. GA is bug smashers and flight schools.

As anyone to describe GA and they are NOT thinking the Corporate hangar at Lowes or IBM.

But hey, good try. Keep grasping for them straws.

Show me some GA shops (not 135s or corporate) paying anything near airline pay.

I interviewed for Duncan, GE, and a half dozen other non-airline gigs and none, NONE, N-O O-N-E is even touching airline pay. Most doen't even compare to regionals when you consider total compensation.

Again, good try.


Cirrus Level I AnP $25 to start


$28 for 'Executive air service (Pt 91 charter?)

From a reddit thread:

I just got my A&P in spring 2024, I'm working as a GA mechanic at a small shop in rural NC and making $26/hr. (2 YEARS $26 WOW!)
I make $29 at a flight school of 12 singles and two twins. Been wirh the school about 2 and a half years.
I'm in a small GA shop. We do our flight school fleet (less than 10 aircraft) and other customers. $30/hr
I work GA at $30 ph.
GA in a metro area with one of the busiest GA airports in the country. We work on Piper cubs to Honda jets with lots of Cirrus in the middle. A&P with IA I'm at $48 (I'll assume this is PDK).

None of those are starting pay, most will have IA (and the liability). You can roll into an airline job at $44 an hour with premiums.
Top out in 6-8 years at $120k+ at legacy.

Notice that airlines are not screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why?
Notice that GA is screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why?
 
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pfarber said:
GA is NOT 135 or corporate. GA is bug smashers and flight schools.
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As the executive director for the FAA’s Flight Standards Service, it’s not uncommon for me to be asked: “What exactly is general aviation (GA)?” With the category being so large, I often feel it’s easier to define what GA is not. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has a similar stance and defines GA as “all civil aviation operations other than scheduled air services and non-scheduled air transport operations for remuneration or hire.”

That broad definition allows GA to encompass a wide range of activities and aircraft types. Today’s GA industry has progressed into a multi-billion-dollar enterprise consisting of business and leisure travel, search and rescue, agriculture operations, advertising, surveying, medical airlift, scientific endeavors, and, of course, flying for good old-fashioned pleasure. GA aircraft are just as varied: powered to non-powered, single-engine to multi-engine, turboprop to turbojet, rotorcraft, experimental, unmanned, and home-built.
pfarber said:
Show me some GA shops (not 135s or corporate) paying anything near airline pay.

I interviewed for Duncan, GE, and a half dozen other non-airline gigs and none, NONE, N-O O-N-E is even touching airline pay. Most doen't even compare to regionals when you consider total compensation.
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Given you are a new entry level A&P it would be easy to see why you weren't offered experienced level pay.
 
pfarber said:
Another moving of the goal posts :rolleyes:

GA is NOT 135 or corporate. GA is bug smashers and flight schools.

As anyone to describe GA and they are NOT thinking the Corporate hangar at Lowes or IBM.

But hey, good try. Keep grasping for them straws.

Show me some GA shops (not 135s or corporate) paying anything near airline pay.

I interviewed for Duncan, GE, and a half dozen other non-airline gigs and none, NONE, N-O O-N-E is even touching airline pay. Most doen't even compare to regionals when you consider total compensation.

Again, good try.


Cirrus Level I AnP $25 to start


$28 for 'Executive air service (Pt 91 charter?)

From a reddit thread:

I just got my A&P in spring 2024, I'm working as a GA mechanic at a small shop in rural NC and making $26/hr. (2 YEARS $26 WOW!)
I make $29 at a flight school of 12 singles and two twins. Been wirh the school about 2 and a half years.
I'm in a small GA shop. We do our flight school fleet (less than 10 aircraft) and other customers. $30/hr
I work GA at $30 ph.
GA in a metro area with one of the busiest GA airports in the country. We work on Piper cubs to Honda jets with lots of Cirrus in the middle. A&P with IA I'm at $48 (I'll assume this is PDK).

None of those are starting pay, most will have IA (and the liability). You can roll into an airline job at $44 an hour with premiums.
Top out in 6-8 years at $120k+ at legacy.

Notice that airlines are not screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why?
Notice that GA is screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why?
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Are you a troll?
 
pfarber said:
Another moving of the goal posts :rolleyes:
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Not even. The goal posts haven’t moved an inch. It’s the hole you continue dig yourself that is getting deeper, which merely gives you the illusion those goal posts are moving. And if you keep up your digging at this rate, you’ll lose complete sight of those goal posts in the near future. Maybe etch-a-sketch yourself a drawing of the goal posts like above, so you'll remember what they look like?:rolleyes:

pfarber said:
GA is NOT 135 or corporate. GA is bug smashers and flight schools.
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I think they clarified that GA definition for you. Been that definition for eons.

pfarber said:
Show me some GA shops (not 135s or corporate) paying anything near airline pay.
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So you really believe that a non-airline based maintenance shop can actually provide the same wage package as an airline with $billions in revenue each year? Really?

pfarber said:
Notice that airlines are not screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why? Notice that GA is screaming for AnPs? Wanna guess why?
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Why then, does every industry source state there is an industry-wide A&P shortage now, that it will get worse, and the numbers won’t balance out until at least 2035? And that’s just a body count. What they can’t replace is the experience levels that retiring.
 
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