ATC Audio of TNFlyGirl Fatal Accident Released

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DeltaCharlie172 said:
Maybe the part where he reviewed her logbook? They would have seen over 180 hours with only 10.6 being solo. I wonder if she maybe the holder of most dual hours to PPL. 180 hours is roughly 4x the minimum (part 61) and 2x the average (part 61).
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I didn't realize there was a maximum allowable number of hours before one can be issued a PPL...
 
FlightmechH3 said:
The CFI's and flight school owners are probably going to be losing sleep over this one.

Despite Jenny "Earhart" being a dumpster fire and loaded up on drugs, the surviving family might go into litigation against several parties for signing off on her knowing full well she wasn't really qualified. No excuse that "she performed the minimums that day" is laughable. When an instructor takes the controls away from Amelia during an approach with some crosswinds is not someone who should be flying at all. They were manipulated by her and her status as an aviation video star.

I hope they get attorneys very soon for advice
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Wrong.

Using this “logic” an A&P/IA is responsible for the airworthiness of an aircraft he signed an annual on for the rest of his life no matter what is done to it or how many annuals it goes through.

The DPE. He gave a flight check and she passed by the minimum standards. Now the pilot goes out and does something stupid and does and somehow the DPE is accountable? What if that DPE issued 200 certificates and this was the only accident of pilots he certified? Should this be grounds for a lawsuit?

For the CFI’s, same situation.

Finally, had this been a 44 year old man this accident would even be under consideration or considered a “case study”. All this thread is in reality is a macabre obsession.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Given the difference in how she flew the Cherokee vs the Debonair, I don’t see how the DPE could have headed this off.
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I agree, 100%

Was only making the point that if anyone, the DPE seems like the last responsible official in the chain.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Maybe the part where he reviewed her logbook? They would have seen over 180 hours with only 10.6 being solo. I wonder if she maybe the holder of most dual hours to PPL. 180 hours is roughly 4x the minimum (part 61) and 2x the average (part 61).
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Nah I have known some with more. It's always someone with money when a normal person would have quit by then.
 
As an aside, it's funny to me that the aviation community is simultaneously "let me fly nordo through the skies at my own risk in a tin box I built with insructions hand drawn on a napkin" and at the same time "somebody should be sued, that's illegal".

To quote the (better) Joker, "I think it's about the duality of man." (with a hat tip to the ladies on the forum)
 
Hengelo said:
I agree, 100%

Was only making the point that if anyone, the DPE seems like the last responsible official in the chain.
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No, the instructor who did her checkout/high performance/complex endorsements was a later responsible official. And the FBO guy who told her it was too much airplane…and the comments on her YT channel. Lots of places after the checkride to see and catch it.
Hengelo said:
As an aside, it's funny to me that the aviation community is simultaneously "let me fly nordo through the skies at my own risk in a tin box I built with insructions hand drawn on a napkin" and at the same time "somebody should be sued, that's illegal".
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Aare the same people on both sides of that equation?
 
Oh I forgot the part of the Constitution that says "the right of the people to fly and crash airplanes shall not be infringed."

Flying, especially while Jenny Blalock is not a right. Flying, especially while unqualified, is also not a right.

These crashes are actually fascinating and learning the root causes.

I really enjoyed pulling kid's bodies out of the water due to the ineptitude of daddy wanting to take his new boat toy out despite a weather forecast of storms. Or walking around (an on) unidentifiable pieces of people at night. Great times waking up screaming at night at times.

It is inexcusable behavior to defend a pilot who was quite well known to be a danger to themselves despite a passing a check ride. It also appears that the local pilots were afraid of reporting her to the FAA even after getting her license. Didn't she do a hard landing in her Cherokee, buggering it up, and then immediately selling it to buy the Debonair?
 
I don't think the "guy at the fbo" counts as an official but point taken. And I'm willing to bet yes, even on the same day sometimes ;)
 
100% agree that if the gender were different this discussion wouldn't even happen. But...that's because the general consensus would have been "pilot should have known they couldn't fly that aircraft well, and that they shouldn't have been flying ANYTHING with those meds." That would have been the end of it.

I'm just jumping in to address a really quick jump that some seem to have made between "CFI/DPE should've..." and "CFI/DPE is liable...". That kind of jump bugs me for two reasons. First, nobody always makes perfect decisions. Second, when you hire a CFI, DPE, plumber, electrician, doctor, you're not hiring perfect. You're hiring someone that has the training and the certs and is going to do the job. If you go get a checkup, the doc doesn't have to say "you're perfect", they instead will say "based on the info I have at hand, I don't think there's anything we need to do here." Not picking on any person in particular.

As an example, I do wonder how a CFI signed her off on complex and high performance, as I mentioned before. That doesn't sound right. But maybe she had a great week, and her meds were all balanced and she did a great job. No clue. To Holiday's point, all a sign off means is that they demonstrated the ability to do it then. It doesn't mean they can now.

As far as the DPE goes, that's even more of a stretch to blame. It's not a marriage. The DPE doesn't sign off that "now and forever more, I see this pilot always flying great". The DPE sees them for a couple of hours. Probably EVERY student that goes to a DPE is nervous. So they perform all the required tasks within the specs. I haven't read anything to indicate that she didn't legitimately pass a checkride.

We live where people are still resonsible for many of their own decisions and their path through life. I kinda like that. Some people make different choices. In addition to flying, I have a motorcycle. And another little plastic card that says somebody thought I could operate one. If I take it out, and wrap it around a tree is someone going to sue the motorcycle safety foundation because they passed me 15 years ago?

Or in other words, 700 pages of discussion around something that can be summarized by the phrase "failed to maintain control". And yep, I get the hypocrisy in all my words adding to it.
 
According to several sources, the average time in the logbook for a student taking their PPL checkride is slightly over 60 hours. Jenny was over 180 hours. Obviously there were challenges.

And yes, she damaged the Cherokee she owned on a landing before she got the Deb.

'nuff said.
 
I should be subjected to the internet equivalent of a 709 for posting to this thread, but here goes.

The OP claims that this is an important case study. I agree in that it could be: the key lies in identifying just what makes it important.

When I was training for the CFI ticket, no source of guidance whatsoever prepared me for the inevitable situation in which a student just could not achieve the proficiency necessary to be a safe pilot. And lo, before the ink was dry on my temporary, I was confronted with just such a situation. What does one do, as a CFI, when it's obvious that the student will likely never be a truly competent pilot? How should an instructor proceed when under pressure to carry on despite the obvious risk the student may ultimately pose to himself and others?

Several posts suggested that TnTFlyGirl enjoyed, and eventually fell victim to, a phenomenon that could be called pretty girl privilege. To make such a claim invites accusations of sexism, male chauvinism, and misogyny. Yet I and others have witnessed pretty girl privilege play out in the real world, and in this case it appears to be an actual factor. Did someone in TnTFlyGirl's past have an opportunity to intervene in a way that would have prevented her eventual demise, only to remain silent for fear of being called-out? Did she and her father die needlessly because no one in a position to make a difference dared to say what should have been said or done what should have been done? It seems quite probable that the answer to those questions is yes.

But what makes this case study truly significant is not pretty girl privilege, but the aspect of privilege in general. I say that because there are several other variations of privilege that have led to similar consequences, including (to name a few):

Celebrity privilege
Powerful/influential individual privilege
Successful, wealthy (HNW) privilege
Scion (of the above) privilege
Friend of so-and-so privilege

Many a life could have been saved, over the decades, if someone had just said no at a critical point in a pilot's trajectory toward disaster. As instructors, evaluators, and peers, what should our role be; and when and how should we intervene to prevent the next TnTFlyGirl catastrophe?

Asking for a friend.
 
Im of the opinion that gender doesnt matter in this instance and this discussion would be had regardless. Not because of gender, but because "influencer". This pilot put everything out there for all to see. Warts and all.

Do we not remember the fallout from Trevor Jacob?
 
Albany Tom said:
Or in other words, 700 pages of discussion around something that can be summarized by the phrase "failed to maintain control".
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Yep... just another LOC. Only this one has a lot more speculation wrapped around it than the typical smoking hole.
 
Roger Wilco said:
I should be subjected to the internet equivalent of a 709 for posting to this thread, but here goes.

The OP claims that this is an important case study. I agree in that it could be: the key lies in identifying just what makes it important.

When I was training for the CFI ticket, no source of guidance whatsoever prepared me for the inevitable situation in which a student just could not achieve the proficiency necessary to be a safe pilot. And lo, before the ink was dry on my temporary, I was confronted with just such a situation. What does one do, as a CFI, when it's obvious that the student will likely never be a truly competent pilot? How should an instructor proceed when under pressure to carry on despite the obvious risk the student may ultimately pose to himself and others?

Several posts suggested that TnTFlyGirl enjoyed, and eventually fell victim to, a phenomenon that could be called pretty girl privilege. To make such a claim invites accusations of sexism, male chauvinism, and misogyny. Yet I and others have witnessed pretty girl privilege play out in the real world, and in this case it appears to be an actual factor. Did someone in TnTFlyGirl's past have an opportunity to intervene in a way that would have prevented her eventual demise, only to remain silent for fear of being called-out? Did she and her father die needlessly because no one in a position to make a difference dared to say what should have been said or done what should have been done? It seems quite probable that the answer to those questions is yes.

But what makes this case study truly significant is not pretty girl privilege, but the aspect of privilege in general. I say that because there are several other variations of privilege that have led to similar consequences, including (to name a few):

Celebrity privilege
Powerful/influential individual privilege
Successful, wealthy (HNW) privilege
Scion (of the above) privilege
Friend of so-and-so privilege

Many a life could have been saved, over the decades, if someone had just said no at a critical point in a pilot's trajectory toward disaster. As instructors, evaluators, and peers, what should our role be; and when and how should we intervene to prevent the next TnTFlyGirl catastrophe?

Asking for a friend.
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You said it perfectly. Thank you
 
Anyone know what is typical insurance limits for liability for standard CFI insurance policy?
 
Albany Tom said:
100% agree that if the gender were different this discussion wouldn't even happen.
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I disagree. This forum alone has several dozen pages discussing Dan Grider. This forum jumps on poor decision making regardless of gender.

Albany Tom said:
As an example, I do wonder how a CFI signed her off on complex and high performance, as I mentioned before. That doesn't sound right. But maybe she had a great week, and her meds were all balanced and she did a great job. No clue. To Holiday's point, all a sign off means is that they demonstrated the ability to do it then. It doesn't mean they can now.
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That's where my questions are too.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Many a life could have been saved, over the decades, if someone had just said no at a critical point in a pilot's trajectory toward disaster. As instructors, evaluators, and peers, what should our role be; and when and how should we intervene to prevent the next TnTFlyGirl catastrophe?
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It must be really difficult to work closely with a student long enough to determine that they cannot be competent/safe, and then to tell them so. I know mine has done it. He says over his many (many) years as an instructor, the toll on him when a prior student dies due to poor choices means that conversation has become self-preservation, as well as concern for the students'. He makes very sure we are aware of the responsibility for safe flight before he signs us off. Does that mean we have more hours than is typical in our logbooks before PPL and instrument rides? Doubtless. Would I trade instructors for for fewer? Hell's no.
 
Racerx said:
Im of the opinion that gender doesnt matter in this instance and this discussion would be had regardless. Not because of gender, but because "influencer".
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If it weren't for gender, do you think her videos would be as popular? We likely wouldn't even be aware of her, except as just another case of pilot miscontrol by someone we knew nothing about.
 
Ed Haywood said:
And those with a training wheel in front.
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Maaan that ain’t no training wheel!


8d58d739ea0cd7536190d943884f1a3e.jpg
 
SLB said:
It must be really difficult to work closely with a student long enough to determine that they cannot be competent/safe, and then to tell them so.
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The CFI's opinion of himself comes into play, too. It can be difficult to admit defeat. The instructor is almost certainly aware that the student will just go somewhere else for training, so in making such a statement the CFI must believe that no other instructor could possibly do a better job with the student than he has. That takes a bit of an ego.

I had an instructor at my flight school express his skepticism over my lack of progress with landings. I decided to stick with it, and a few weeks later a different instructor had me ready for solo. She noticed something that I was doing which was completely missed by the first guy. She caught and corrected it on our first flight together, and I was almost instantly making good landings.


Dana said:
If it weren't for gender, do you think her videos would be as popular?
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Well, @SixPapaCharlie 's videos are popular,.....
 
Dana said:
If it weren't for gender, do you think her videos would be as popular? We likely wouldn't even be aware of her, except as just another case of pilot miscontrol by someone we knew nothing about.
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If she wasn't terrible people wouldn't watch either. Why do people watch air Jerry? "What's he gonna do this time?!"
 
Half Fast said:
The CFI's opinion of himself comes into play, too. It can be difficult to admit defeat. The instructor is almost certainly aware that the student will just go somewhere else for training, so in making such a statement the CFI must believe that no other instructor could possibly do a better job with the student than he has. That takes a bit of an ego.

I had an instructor at my flight school express his skepticism over my lack of progress with landings. I decided to stick with it, and a few weeks later a different instructor had me ready for solo. She noticed something that I was doing which was completely missed by the first guy. She caught and corrected it on our first flight together, and I was almost instantly making good landings.




Well, @SixPapaCharlie 's videos are popular,.....
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That’s just being comfy in your own skin and having experience.

Different people are, well, different

Over the years I’ve probable send 3-4 students to other instructors because they just were not “getting it”, I always told the

“You are not getting it and I don’t see a path forward like this, it could be flying isn’t for you, it could be I’m not the instructor for you, I know a other CFI, you two should I up and see how it goes”

It’s not a commonly used tool in a CFIs belt, but it is a common tool I’d expect them to have and know when to use.


Racerx said:
If she wasn't terrible people wouldn't watch either. Why do people watch air Jerry? "What's he gonna do this time?!"
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Bingo

It’s like watching that Mr Magoo cartoon.

However Jerry I’m quite sure is an act, she was very obviously from early on not an act.
 
Hengelo said:
I don't think the "guy at the fbo" counts as an official but point taken. And I'm willing to bet yes, even on the same day sometimes ;)
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Although not an "official", I believe the "guy at the FBO" mentioned was the flight school manager who was very familiar with her instruction and performance, not just some random FBO dude with an opinion.
 
TrueCourse said:
Although not an "official", I believe the "guy at the FBO" mentioned was the flight school manager who was very familiar with her instruction and performance, not just some random FBO dude with an opinion.
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What’s an official anyways?


I’d just talk to witnesses of all types and judge their credibility off what they say compared to the evidence so far gathered, and later gathered.

Met enough airport managers that I would probably first seek out the testimony of the line guys and local pilots well before the airport manager
 
decalogue said:
What’s an official anyways?


I’d just talk to witnesses of all types and judge their credibility off what they say compared to the evidence so far gathered, and later gathered.

Met enough airport managers that I would probably first seek out the testimony of the line guys and local pilots well before the airport manager
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The NTSB doesn't report hearsay. Asking line guys to assess a pilot's skill level is absurd. The "official" wasn't an "airport manager." He was the flight school manager, who gave her an IFR stage check, which was unsatisfactory on nearly all tasks.
 
dmspilot said:
The NTSB doesn't report hearsay. The flight school manager gave her an IFR stage check, which was unsatisfactory on nearly all tasks.
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Who said anything about hearsay?


Simply if someone saw something, or she spoke to someone, or someone overheard her say something, even the guy pumping blue juice, I’d listen to that as well
 
dmspilot said:
The NTSB doesn't report hearsay. Asking line guys to assess a pilot's skill level is absurd. The "official" wasn't an "airport manager." He was the flight school manager, who gave her an IFR stage check, which was unsatisfactory on nearly all tasks.
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Watching her videos she was unsatisfactory even VFR.
 
decalogue said:
That’s just being comfy in your own skin and having experience.

Different people are, well, different

Over the years I’ve probable send 3-4 students to other instructors because they just were not “getting it”, I always told the

“You are not getting it and I don’t see a path forward like this, it could be flying isn’t for you, it could be I’m not the instructor for you, I know a other CFI, you two should I up and see how it goes”

It’s not a commonly used tool in a CFIs belt, but it is a common tool I’d expect them to have and know when to use
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Absolutely. The issue isn't a student who is struggling with the pieces parts of training, or lack of fit with the instructor's methods. It's one of after spending time, one on one, with a prospective pilot with poor decision making skills, and being willing to tell them you think they may not be suited to this endeavor. I'm sure the pilot under discussion didn't wake up one day after all the training, unstable enough for the meds she was taking, and unable to make good choices. It was likely a long time coming.
 
Racerx said:
Im of the opinion that gender doesnt matter in this instance and this discussion would be had regardless. Not because of gender, but because "influencer". This pilot put everything out there for all to see. Warts and all.

Do we not remember the fallout from Trevor Jacob?
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And what would this thread look like if it was JW? I’d assume very similar.
 
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Doc Holliday said:
Finally, had this been a 44 year old man this accident would even be under consideration or considered a “case study”. All this thread is in reality is a macabre obsession.
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You may be correct, but if a male pilot put up a YouTube video similar to the "dumpster fire" episode, I would have been just as astonished. Flying around in circles on a clear day when a simple turn and heading would have accomplished the goal is something I can't really grasp.
 
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