ATC Audio of TNFlyGirl Fatal Accident Released

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This thread will never die. It will be necroposted years from now. Maybe regurgitated which is what I felt like doing watching that video in the beginning.
 
SFDukie said:
It’s just a minor point, but it may not be fair to describe her father as complicit.
He’s a passenger. Her radio calls on the day of her fatal accident do not sound overtly, obviously, impaired to me. Obviously that doesn’t excuse failure to report use of benzodiazepines by the pilot.
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I only say that because the instructor told her the the Debonair was too much. Her father was there and he agreed with the assessment. To continue to fly with someone after a professional tells you that someone is in over their head. You're no longer ignorant but willfully so.
 
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This guy leans on the concoction of drugs being the smoking gun... But for for the drugs in her system she would have made better decisions? Her CFI did say in the past that when the autopilot was not going right for her she would turn it off and hand fly the plane - she had an ongoing issue with the manual trim when using the autopilot.

At the end of the day, she had a known medical deficiency and simply should not have been flying. While the NTSB final report blames the pilot induced oscillations as the cause it was the drugs that may have squarely caused her poor chain of decisions. To say otherwise is simply saying she was totally fine flying jacked up on all those drugs!

 
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SFDukie said:
It’s just a minor point, but it may not be fair to describe her father as complicit.
He’s a passenger. Her radio calls on the day of her fatal accident do not sound overtly, obviously, impaired to me. Obviously that doesn’t excuse failure to report use of benzodiazepines by the pilot.
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Shame he didn't get some dual or even a PPL at some point in the adventure.
 
Albany Tom said:
And if I ever move, I'm sure the next person will find the dozens of #2 Phillips screwdrivers I've apparently misplaced.
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I feel your pain on this one. I recently consolidated three houses into one and, in the process, discovered I have more screwdrivers than I ever would have guessed. Of which a grand total of two are Phillips.

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SFDukie said:
Her radio calls on the day of her fatal accident do not sound overtly, obviously, impaired to me. Obviously that doesn’t excuse failure to report use of benzodiazepines by the pilot.
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This wouldn't be the first time a pilot's radio voice sounded very competent, but masked weaknesses in flying abilities. Particularly with female pilots (IMO only) whose brains are wired (IMO) better to talk quicker and more efficiently than a males.

I particularly remember the low-time lady flying a Cirrus into a busy big city Texas airport in (Houston or Dallas?) with children on board. She sounded great on the radio, and as far as the tower was concerned she was likely considered to be competent. She began getting horsed around by the tower with multiple runway changes, on a windy day, and the tower was clearly prioritizing jet arrivals in-between her slow to respond to instructions.

Her failure to descend and to effectively maneuver around the airport environment ultimately caused her tragically to stall / spin, killing everybody on board.

My point being you can sound as good as a seasoned airline pilot and still lack the basic skills to follow directions, or refuse to admit you're in over your head and request help, while help to save your bacon is still available.
 
Racerx said:
She met a standard but perhaps that's an indictment on the standard itself?
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This is what I've been chewing on for a few days now. We always hear how "unfair" it is that e.g. a gust of wind can cause an unsat on commercial PO180s, but that in and of itself indicates there's an inherent element of randomness to the examination process. Maneuvers, especially the energy management maneuvers such as the short field landing, are only formally tested once by the time someone obtains their PPL. It's entirely possible (not safe, just possible) to point a low speed trainer (172, Cherokee, etc.) at the runway on short final, close one's eyes, and have a non-zero chance of landing that one time within ACS tolerances.

Most of this would be weeded out by the time one has a CPL, since the tolerances are tighter and the pilot has already had to repeat the performance, leading to a much lower statistical chance of passing by fluke. Maybe the PPL ACS should have a couple more energy management tasks in the airport environment added to reduce the chance of someone slipping through like that?
 
Rick A said:
My point being you can sound as good as a seasoned airline pilot and still lack the basic skills to follow directions
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I'm the exact opposite. IMHO I'm pretty dang good with a stick and rudder, but I'm absolutely terrified of the radio and ATC.

Too bad the young lady didn't get some taildragger and acro time before moving on to faster and more complex aircraft. I truly believe it makes you a better pilot.
 
I have quite a bit of hours in both Bonanza and Debs. The narrow CG of the planes requires a fair amount of trim authority. With two up front and no rear pax, or bags and near or at full fuel, either the Bo or Deb will be at or in front of the fwd CG. In this case, if they weren't forward of CG they were very close. Which means, the trim tabs would be deflected downward, to effect an upward motion of the elevator to counteract fwd CG. Next, there is a lot of authority of the trim to account for the addition of rear seat pax, and bags in the rear. As the speed goes up, the forces on the elevator can get very heavy very quick. Trimming a Bo/Deb at cruise requires a delicate touch on the wheel. Some find the trim wheel direction to be opposite of what is logical. To tip the nose down, one needs to roll the front of the trim wheel up. It sort of makes sense that the trim movement is 'rolling' down a hill, but others have got it reversed and moved the trim wheel down, to move the nose of the plane down. After 20 hours in the plane, it becomes second nature, but it can get a new, or distracted pilot reversing the trim at first.

autopilots on the airframe have no problem keeping the plane in directional and vertical balance. A two or three axis autopilot will have a load limit and control on elevator, because of how the forces build up. If not trimmed properly, it will disconnect and give an audible(most) warning. Fighting or chasing the trim in vertical mode is a bit tricky. Again - in cruise speeds, a gentle touch on the trim is needed. The control that will save a pilot in the Bo/Dev is pretty much always the throttle. Decidedly not the elevator. The elevator should be commanded very respectfully.

Drugs; There are a few drugs I could understand not reporting maybe. Stretch the limits of aeromed for maybe plaque psoriasis or something. But - all those psychotropic cocktails in her system wasn't helping to perform moderately complex tasks required of that plane. And she had to know that the drugs were or could alter her performance, so they went un-reported.

Failing basic nav and directional control even without the autopilot is pretty scary. I've gotten turned around a bit once in flight, but jeez - nothing like that. Pick a heading and turn to that heading, then level out and settle down. Yikes. Even with a massive load of dual she wasn't able to find and hold a heading without a lot of help.

The 'father' thing. He rode with her a lot. Might have picked up some very basic knowledge of GA flying, but since he likely hadn't flown with other pilots, felt that his kid was doing what every other GA pilot would do. Nothing to judge against, or gauge her abilities. I also think he was maybe reluctant to show her he wasn't comfy with her flying skills, as a form of disrespect. Just a father's point of view.

All GA accidents are sad, and those with young people just getting into aviation are particularly sad events.
 
Instructor took the controls away from her on this one. She tried shaming him obviously.

Not only was she a horrible pilot, but also a manipulator.
 

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Ed Haywood said:
I'm the exact opposite. IMHO I'm pretty dang good with a stick and rudder, but I'm absolutely terrified of the radio and ATC.

Too bad the young lady didn't get some taildragger and acro time before moving on to faster and more complex aircraft. I truly believe it makes you a better pilot.
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I'd be willing to bet you're in your head when it comes to comms. Im gunshy myself. My sister when she was training was the same way. At dinner one night I was trying to compliment how professional she sounded having only 10
hours. Absolutely didn't want to hear it thinking I was going to critique. When she realized I was giving praise she was shocked I was impressed.

Make an uncoordinated turn in the air. Probably nobody notices. Everyone hears you on the radio and that's intimidating. Talking with ATC and saying 5 miles east instead of west... Dammit.

It wasn't until recently I flew with my sister's bf who works Chicago tracon and just got his instrument. Let the pro handle comms. Even he goofed and had zero hesitation asking for clarification in plain english. Was a bit eye opening
 
whitepines said:
We always hear how "unfair" it is that e.g. a gust of wind can cause an unsat on commercial PO180s,
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Per the ACS, the examiner takes conditions of the day into account. It wouldn’t be “a gust of wind” that causes the UNSAT, but the pilot’s inability to deal with that gust of wind appropriately.
 
SkyChaser said:
I am willing to give her DPE the benefit of the doubt, and say that she could have practiced enough to pass the checkride standards on the checkride day. I am less willing to give the same to her instructors, but I also doubt her defiencies in skill are entirely the fault of her instructors wearing hot-girl goggles. A pilot who barely passes standards still passes, but is a mediocre pilot at best - and if they don't continually strive to hone their skills after the checkride, they will quickly become a poor pilot at best and an unsafe or dangerous pilot otherwise.

In another thread on the subject, another poster said something along the lines of "She may have passed her checkride by being a passable Cherokee pilot, but not a good airplane pilot".
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It’s also possible she wasn’t as heavily medicated at the time of her checkride. She was a walking CVS on the fatal flight.
 
Rick A said:
My point being you can sound as good as a seasoned airline pilot and still lack the basic skills to follow directions, ....
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:yeahthat:
On one of my early training flights, my CFI complimented my radio calls. I’d been a ham for many years, knew mnemonics, and was perfectly comfortable on the radio. But that didn’t mean I knew beans about flying a plane.
 
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Half Fast said:
:yeahthat:
On one of my early training flights, my CFI complimented my radio calls. I’d been a ham for many tears, knew mnemonics, and was perfectly comfortable on the radio. But that didn’t mean I knew beans about flying a plane.
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Went to an airshow years back and there was a flight sim... Forget the aircraft but was 747 type. I took off and landed that bird so great and got up and yelled - "I'm an airliner pilot!" To my surprise someone asked for which airliner.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Instructor took the controls away from her on this one. She tried shaming him obviously.

Not only was she a horrible pilot, but also a manipulator.
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It makes her look petty but in reality that instructor was terrible and probably couldn't have taught a bird to fly.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
She was incompetent. Zero situational awareness except making videos for an income stream.

The CFI's signed off on her? Really? Must have been nice operating the radios for her during the check rides, probably doing the TO's and landings too. No true CFI in their right minds would have allowed this. The instructors were probably young males that were giddy to sit next to her. Did they do the preflights and gas it up for her too?
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How do you explain all the incompetent male pilots?
 
Lindberg said:
How do you explain all the incompetent male pilots?
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Not who you asked, but I don't. We know she had a medley of CFIs. That creates the possibility that she self-selected CFIs that would permit her bad habits or behaviors.
 
IDK if this is ok to ask but i'm curious if anyone knows about tissue levels with these drugs and if they constitute intoxication levels.
 
francisco collazos said:
IDK if this is ok to ask but i'm curious if anyone knows about tissue levels with these drugs and if they constitute intoxication levels.
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Does it matter? It's not like alcohol where once it leaves you're fit to fly. These are medications that should have grounded her regardless of whether or not she was intoxicated for this specific flight.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Not who you asked, but I don't. We know she had a medley of CFIs. That creates the possibility that she self-selected CFIs that would permit her bad habits or behaviors.
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This is correct. The ones who signed her off were thinking with their little heads
 
francisco collazos said:
IDK if this is ok to ask but i'm curious if anyone knows about tissue levels with these drugs and if they constitute intoxication levels.
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Alprazolam at 81 ng/g, alpha-hydroxyalprazolam at 4 ng/g, and trazodone at 56 ng/g (muscle).

An alprazolam concentration corresponding to 81 ng/g is within a range documented causes psychomotor impairment. Reported effects at comparable levels include slowed reaction time, impaired divided attention, reduced coordination, decreased tracking ability, and cognitive slowing. These effects directly impact rapid decision-making and complex task performance.

A trazodone concentration corresponding to 56 ng/g is associated with sedation, slowed information processing, reduced alertness, and delayed response speed. Controlled performance testing has demonstrated measurable decreases in cognitive and motor efficiency at comparable levels.

When both substances are present, reaction time slowing, further reduces cognitive processing speed, and decreases the ability to manage multiple tasks simultaneously.
Racerx said:
Does it matter? It's not like alcohol where once it leaves you're fit to fly. These are medications that should have grounded her regardless of whether or not she was intoxicated for this specific flight.
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Agree here... She simply she not have been flying whatsoever as she obviously had something going on to be on that concoction of drugs.
 
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Barrett50 said:
I have quite a bit of hours in both Bonanza and Debs. The narrow CG of the planes requires a fair amount of trim authority. With two up front and no rear pax, or bags and near or at full fuel, either the Bo or Deb will be at or in front of the fwd CG. In this case, if they weren't forward of CG they were very close.
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In your opinion, with the trim tab determined to be at 5 degrees down, wings assumed to be relatively level, airspeed quickly reaching 230 kts along with a descent rate of over 10,000' per/minute...
Question: Is it realistic that an autopilot failure, or pilot misuse of the autopilot while flying, could that scenario even possibly create such a steep rate descent and increase of airspeed, even if a large power reduction was made early on? (see Figure #2 on page 6 of the attached pdf)

The NTSB lists Findings (page 3 of attached pdf) as:
Pilot - Aircraft control
Aircraft - Pitch control Not attained/maintained

Seems the NTSB has included only casually related (and some obvious) "Findings" in their final report. The report includes speculation on various factors that alone, and with with possible combinations along with others, very likely influenced the resulting crash, i.e., drug use, autopilot misuse, autopilot failure, possible misuse of trim, and opinions of pilots that had flown with her in the past.

But nowhere along with the above speculation includes the possibility of the pilot inadvertently applying excessive roll that established the LOC (per, Pilot - Aircraft Control) listed in the findings.

Knowing what you know with the "quite of bit of hours you have" in Bonanzas and Debs, is a roll upset even a possibility that could be considered along with the rest of the casual factors speculated in the report? Or am I just out to lunch considering that possibility?
 

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Racerx said:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
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It assumes fewer facts in my opinion. If she got signed off in the Debonair, we have ample evidence of her incompetence in that plane. We could assumed she got signed off flying a different plane, then further assume she flew that other plane better. But I don't really want to argue about whose assumption is right. I'd rather hear from some CFIs, At what point would you tell a student that they're exhibiting dangerous behaviors and a lack of skill? At what point should a competent, good, or otherwise dedicated CFI report her to the FAA for dangerous behavior?
 
Racerx said:
Does it matter?
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Does to me that's why i asked.. not trying to be snarky just more to understand what those levels mean in terms of intoxication. Kind of like what BAC is to alcohol.
 
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Rick A said:
In your opinion, with the trim tab determined to be at 5 degrees down, wings assumed to be relatively level, airspeed quickly reaching 230 kts along with a descent rate of over 10,000' per/minute...
Question: Is it realistic that an autopilot failure, or pilot misuse of the autopilot while flying, could that scenario even possibly such a steep rate descent and increase of airspeed, even if a large power reduction was made early on? (see Figure #2 on page 6 of the attached pdf)

The NTSB lists Findings (page 3 of attached pdf) as:
Pilot - Aircraft control
Aircraft - Pitch control Not attained/maintained

Seems the NTSB has included only casually related (and some obvious) "Findings" in their final report. The report includes speculation on various factors that alone, and with with possible combinations along with others, very likely influenced the resulting crash, i.e., drug use, autopilot misuse, autopilot failure, possible misuse of trim, and opinions of pilots that had flown with her in the past.

But nowhere along with the above speculation includes the possibility of the pilot inadvertently applying excessive roll that established the LOC (per, Pilot - Aircraft Control) listed in the findings.

Knowing what you know with the "quite of bit of hours you have" in Bonanzas and Debs, is a roll upset even a possibility that could be considered along with the rest of the casual factors speculated in the report? Or am I just out to lunch considering that possibility?
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Gosh, kinda put me on the spot! I'll try my best. First question: Is it realistic that an autopilot failure, or pilot misuse of the autopilot while flying, could that scenario even possibly such a steep rate descent and increase of airspeed, even if a large power reduction was made early on?

Yes, I believe so. I have an example, with my fat ass of 204Lb, and another buddy fat ass of 230Lb, and no rear seat or baggage, I have been fwd CG in a Bo. During a landing, the trim is set fairly far up due to gear and flaps out. If it's a balked landing and go around, applying full power, full rpm on the prop, I need to keep my speed down around 80Kts climbing, and the forces on the elevator are still pretty high, and I need to reach down and spin the trim wheel as the gear comes up with the doors open. Of course, this is not the profile of the accident plane, but the qualifier is if a large power reduction was made early on. And then I would answer that an early power reduction would have helped tremendously in reduced elevator forces, and yet, there might be a point where even with power reduced, the PIO is so severe(as in the graph), that no amount of power reduction would help.

Second question: is a roll upset even a possibility that could be considered along with the rest of the casual factors speculated in the report? Or am I just out to lunch considering that possibility? I would say a low possibility of a roll upset. Keeping the wings level in CAVU conditions isn't hard, and the roll yoke forces don't build anything like the elevator forces with speed. Yes, there is a greater yoke force needed as speed increases to roll, but it's nothing like the change in elevator forces with the power of the prop slipstream over the elevator(or ruddervator). Adding in the 'however' with a young woman fighting the autopilot, the trim, and the plane in general, a roll moment could have been introduced unwittingly, but I don't see that being too much of a probability.
 
Lindberg said:
And the ones who sign off on incompetent male pilots, what are they thinking with?
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Their wallets? Once a guy came into the FBO while I was debriefing with my instructor and asked if he could buy a HP endorsement...it is unknown whether he meant take the training or quite literally buy it, as the FBO's only plane was the Archer I was renting. Or maybe all incompetent male pilots have hot sisters or friends? :goofy:
 
Middle age? TNflygirl, (not TNflywoman) and for perspective, I'm 70, so anyone in their 40s is a young person. I wonder what the ave age of GA pilots is in 2026? Over/under says it's going to be around 60 maybe.

tmflygirl.jpg
 
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2-Bit Speed said:
It's a little weird seeing multiple people refer to her as a 'young woman.' There were a few in the original thread (from 2023).
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“Young” is relative. I watched a movie at a museum yesterday where the skipper of an aircraft carrier was leading a multinational naval exercise. I’m pretty sure he was under 50. That’s young now, but when I was your age ;) it was old. Well, “mature” anyway.
 
Call it what it is (or was). Unable to maintain stable flight (stable speed, heading, and altitude) hand flying on a VFR day.

Message here for everyone - don't buy more plane that you can handle, and if you do, make sure you are getting the best training possible. Keep yourself, and those who fly with you, safe.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Not who you asked, but I don't. We know she had a medley of CFIs. That creates the possibility that she self-selected CFIs that would permit her bad habits or behaviors.
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Or, she was fired by a CFI and had to find another one.

I was once fired by a golf pro, “I can’t teach you to play golf” lol. He was right.
 
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