As Joan Baez would say- when will they (we?) ever learn? Broomfield, 2 dead

SFDukie

SFDukie

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Open door on takeoff, likely turning stall, (incipient spin? Unclear) fatal uncontrolled crash

Juan Browne did his usual thoughtful analysis

Doesn’t take an aerodynamics expert to scream- fly the plane. DA of 6800’, but without a dee dive, seems like a baron should have had plenty of climb performance
Even if it didn’t, put it down in a controlled manner.
Aviate, navigate…

IMG_8372.jpeg
 
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As declared previously, I vow to tell this story on every such thread. My door once popped open while I was inverted at the top of a loop during an aerobatic contest. I switched hands, pulled the door closed, finished the loop, and received my best score of the weekend.
 
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SFDukie said:
DA of 6800’, but without a dee dive, seems like a baron should have had plenty of climb performance
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The D-Alt should be irrelevant. Comfortably cool morning (not even 60°F) and the aircraft registry indicates local owner.
 
in my fantasy world, in about 12 months, we will learn from the NTSB that "the pilot failed to fly the damn plane in the face of a loud, percussive distraction that sucked all of the loose papers out of the cabin but otherwise did not affect his plane in the slightest"

Quoth the doctor, "sigh"
 
Examiner did this on my ppl ride back in 1976 or so. Distracted me for just a minute and I told him don't fall out till I can get back on the ground. Never practiced it with instructor. Needs to be done in training at some point. Easier done in c150 or 172.
 
Mikey52 said:
Examiner did this on my ppl ride back in 1976 or so. Distracted me for just a minute and I told him don't fall out till I can get back on the ground. Never practiced it with instructor. Needs to be done in training at some point. Easier done in c150 or 172.
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First flight with a new instructor as a low hour student. I realize after takeoff the door wasn't locked. He fought with it for a minute. Finally I said hey, why don't we just deal with it on the ground?
 
I had a passenger door pop open in a C172 during my solo XC phase, right after take off. Lots of noise, but the plane flies the same pretty much, so flew to home base without incident.
 
MacFlier said:
I had a passenger door pop open in a C172 during my solo XC phase, right after take off. Lots of noise, but the plane flies the same pretty much, so flew to home base without incident.
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I read this fast the first time. I thought your passenger popped the door open. While doing solo xc work... I guess I can put the popcorn away
 
Happened to me in a Cherokee at Sporty's one Saturday after spending a few bucks and a free hot dog lunch. Flew the pattern, landed and had another hot dog.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Ate.
 
Mikey52 said:
Examiner did this on my ppl ride back in 1976 or so. Distracted me for just a minute and I told him don't fall out till I can get back on the ground. Never practiced it with instructor. Needs to be done in training at some point. Easier done in c150 or 172.
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Mine was with a CFI during an IPC.

“The door just popped open.”
“Well, you better hang on. I’m busy flying.”
 
I had a door pop open in the Lance with a passenger (who is a pilot) I was unfamiliar with. I told her to leave it alone, aborted the takeoff, flew around and landed. Closed the door (re-ran the entire checklist) and departed.

She asked why I didn't just have her close and latch the door and continue on. The above incident is why. Had I known her and trusted her I may have allowed an in flight attempt, but the plane flies just fine with the door open. No reason to distract. Land it, resolve the problem and leave normally. She'd already distracted me (with silly questions) during my takeoff checklist or we'd never have left with it open. Once I realized I was distracted it's best to go back, do the entire checklist correctly and then head off.

As an aside, I got yelled at by my "mission lead" for being late to the destination, but that is a different story for another thread. I'm happy that I did not let that pressure stop me from doing the above.

I started a thread about that situation https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/why-i-dont-fly-missions-anymore.151382/
 
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Often, while working on individual airplanes for the first time, I found the latches barely holding, way out of adjustment, or just worn out. There's no good reason for doors to pop open in flight.

Right there in, for example, the Cessna 172 inspection sheets in the service manual, to be checked at 50-hour intervals:

1747775489341.png

Or in the PA-28 series manual:

1747776185732.png
To be done at 100, 500 and 1000-hour intervals.
 
Salty said:
I had a door pop open in the Lance with a passenger (who is a pilot) I was unfamiliar with. I told her to leave it alone, aborted the takeoff, flew around and landed. Closed the door (re-ran the entire checklist) and departed.

She asked why I didn't just have her close and latch the door and continue on. The above incident is why. Had I known her and trusted her I may have allowed an in flight attempt, but the plane flies just fine with the door open. No reason to distract. Land it, resolve the problem and leave normally. She'd already distracted me (with silly questions) during my takeoff checklist or we'd never have left with it open. Once I realized I was distracted it's best to go back, do the entire checklist correctly and then head off.

As an aside, I got yelled at by my "mission lead" for being late to the destination, but that is a different story for another thread. I'm happy that I did not let that pressure stop me from doing the above.

I started a thread about that situation https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/why-i-dont-fly-missions-anymore.151382/
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I forgot the top latch once. I tried to get it to catch in flight, but was unable to. Same thing with the back door...had the back seat passenger try to latch it to no avail. I believe almost all small planes, with the exception of Cessnas with their huge windows, are impossible to latch in flight. They also all fly just fine. I can't for the life of me understand how it causes so many crashes.

@Salty I though you sold the Lance?
 
One of my CFI buddies had a Bonanza (?) door pop open on him a day or two before I ran into him at the FBO. “If that door pops open, leave it. Don’t try to close it, it will kill you!”

A long time ago, about when I started lessons, a buddy of mine lost his mom. She was flying with her husband in his RV-4. The canopy wasn’t secured and slid back right after rotation. He tried to close the canopy, stalled, and pancaked it back onto the runway. She died from her injuries a day or two later.
 
So, the door popped open. So what? No aircraft that I am aware of will become incapable of flight with the door slightly open, and no aircraft that I am aware of has suicide doors so they just bounce around in the slipstream, while the cabin gets louder, and quite a bit cooler on cold months, or . . . somewhat cooler on warm months. (C152s don't have award winning latches.)

Aviate, aviate, aviate, navigate, aviate, aviate, aviate, communicate, aviate, aviate . . .
1747779987705.png worry about that door.
 
Ed Haywood said:
As declared previously, I vow to tell this story on every such thread. My door once popped open while I was inverted at the top of a loop during an aerobatic contest. I switched hands, pulled the door closed, finished the loop, and received my best score of the weekend.
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I am going to use this as an example of staying cool and flying the plane.
 
Once as a passenger in dad's old Cherokee 160 the top latch wasn't locked. Open door latch to try to slam it shut.... Yeah that wasn't gonna happen. Even with 2 people yanking on it, it ain't getting latched. An extra landing in the logbook should be the worst thing that happens.
 
Jim K said:
I forgot the top latch once. I tried to get it to catch in flight, but was unable to. Same thing with the back door...had the back seat passenger try to latch it to no avail. I believe almost all small planes, with the exception of Cessnas with their huge windows, are impossible to latch in flight. They also all fly just fine. I can't for the life of me understand how it causes so many crashes.

@Salty I though you sold the Lance?
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I did. This happened awhile ago.
 
Harrell was flying in a new, experimental conard which went into a flat spin they couldn't get out of. Eventually, he decided to open a door prior to jumping. Yep, opening the door created enough disturbance that the plane was gotten back under control.
I've had plenty of C150 doors pop in flight. Easy to close. Cherokee 180, no, had to land, but no big deal.
 
The air stair fell open on a Navajo once right at rotation. The plane yawed tremendously to the left. My first thought was, ''who ran into me.??''.

Just flew normally around the pattern and landed. The latch was very worn so it had to be replaced. Loaded with cargo, no passengers lost.
 
I was on a Discovery flight in an Aeronca Champ. The cabin door popped open just as we left the ground. The instructor continued climbing and once he leveled off he simply banked and the door slammed shut. EZPZ.

I did a flight in a checkout flight in a Remos G3 with the doors off. Very very cool!
 
I grew up learning to fly in Texas. 10 months of the year, the door is popped open just about any time the airspeed needle is dead. Had the top latch open in our Archer first flight with the wife. I just told her not to worry about it, extra cooling until we get back on the ground. She was like, ehhh, if you don't care than I don't care. No biggie.
 
I took my then 13 year old daughter and one of her friends on a flight in a C-172C. The doors in that were very easy to open inadvertently. We landed, they switched places for the return flight so the friend was in the front seat. Shortly after takeoff, she turned around to say something to my daughter and opened the door. I told her it was fine and we'd land and sort it out. She did very well. We flew 8 miles up to coast to Valkaria from Sebastian, landed, latched the door and flew home to Orlando. No biggie. (I opted to fly to Valkaria because there were parachutes inbound at Sebastian and I wanted to get out of the pattern so I figured it was quicker as we were already headed that way.)
 
Am I the only one here who leans on the door?

Open door is a severe catastrophic situation for me if I forget
 
Randomskylane said:
Am I the only one here who leans on the door?

Open door is a severe catastrophic situation for me if I forget
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In the slipstream it would never open enough for you to fall out. Startle you? Yes, certainly.
 
I guess I’m lucky to have a small airplane without a door (or doors). Fortunately, I can slide the canopy windows open or closed during flight.
 
A zenith 601 and its front latched canopy. It pops open:

1: you ain’t gonna be able to close it, low pressure keeps it up just enough to…

2: you ain’t got enough power to stay level with the increased drag. You’re gonna crash.

An RV-12 may be the same.
 
Tools said:
A zenith 601 and its front latched canopy. It pops open:

1: you ain’t gonna be able to close it, low pressure keeps it up just enough to…

2: you ain’t got enough power to stay level with the increased drag. You’re gonna crash.

An RV-12 may be the same.
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Interesting. I have a database of RV-12 accidents through 2023 which covers all certification categories...SLSA, ELSA, and EAB. Four of the Probable Causes cite the canopy coming open. That's quite a few, considering there are only 25 accidents in my list.

CEN11LA601
CEN13LA340
CEN17FA334
ERA19FA265

"About 9 months before the accident, the kit manufacturer published a service letter regarding the in- flight opening of tip-up canopies. The letter stated that, based on previous events, the aircraft will most likely pitch nose down abruptly if the canopy opens in flight. The severity of the pitching moment can depend on speed, attitude, and weight and balance. The letter further stated that most instances of in-flight canopy openings were the result of the pilot forgetting to latch the canopy properly before takeoff, and cautioned pilots to ensure that the latching mechanism fully engaged as designed. " (CEN17FA334)

Ron Wanttaja
 
It's been a few decades since an open door on a Cessna twin killed six people close to me. These crashes make me wish I could reach through the veil and scream obscenities at the dead pilots.

It's beyond frustrating. All they needed to do was nothing.
 
I’m not sure I understand completely, but I’ve seen the distraction factor at work in a more benign situation. I was checking out a pilot in a Bonanza. During the takeoff roll, my door popped open. The pilot stared at it but just kept on rolling until I said, “don’t you think you ought to stop?”
 
jsstevens said:
In the slipstream it would never open enough for you to fall out. Startle you? Yes, certainly.
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Not all airplane doors are the same.

On a Velocity, a door opening inflight will result in a crash... Every time. That's why we have micro switches with warning lights that tell us if the door is not latched along with interlocks to prevent the door handle from moving.
 
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