As Joan Baez would say- when will they (we?) ever learn? Broomfield, 2 dead

donjohnston said:
Not all airplane doors are the same.

On a Velocity, a door opening inflight will result in a crash... Every time. That's why we have micro switches with warning lights that tell us if the door is not latched along with interlocks to prevent the door handle from moving.
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One of the European glass sailplanes has a cam on the front canopy latches. For more cabin air you lift the canopy a bit off the seal. (Might be German since it's a micro version of Volkswagen Safari Windows.)
 
Matthew said:
She was flying with her husband in his RV-4. The canopy wasn’t secured and slid back right after rotation. He tried to close the canopy, stalled, and pancaked it back onto the runway....
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The stock RV-4 canopy is side hinged and the hinge is intended to"unzip" when the canopy is opened in flight, allowing the canopy to separate cleanly (hopefully without taking parts of the tail with it). I'm aware of several that have opened in flight but I'm not aware of one that has been successfully closed afterwards. I try to make damn sure it's latched before takeoff and I take my CANOPY light seriously.

Nauga,
who doesn't want a convertible
 
billsgs126 said:
You don't wear a seatbelt / harness?
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I’m tall with a very dense blockhead so I figure I’ll catch myself before going too far over but won’t be able to sit upright again with the door holding me down



Multi quote fail:

I’ve had the door pop and the wind does hold the door semi shut…except low and slow like in the pattern for landing
 
nauga said:
The stock RV-4 canopy is side hinged and the hinge is intended to"unzip" when the canopy is opened in flight, allowing the canopy to separate cleanly (hopefully without taking parts of the tail with it). I'm aware of several that have opened in flight but I'm not aware of one that has been successfully closed afterwards. I try to make damn sure it's latched before takeoff and I take my CANOPY light seriously.

Nauga,
who doesn't want a convertible
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Ahh, I re-read the accident report. It says “canopy went to the full open position”. I assumed it slid instead of hinged.

>>>
The pilot said that he did his run-up check and took the runway for takeoff. The airplane rotated, took off, and was climbing when approximately 80 feet above the ground, the canopy opened. The pilot said the canopy went to the full open position and the airplane subsequently yawed 45 degrees right. The pilot lowered the airplane's nose, applied full left rudder, and reduced the engine power to idle. The pilot said he then switched hands on the control stick and with his right hand, reached up and pulled the canopy closed. He said his airspeed was just above the stall speed and his wings were level. The airplane was approximately 20 feet above the ground when it "pancaked perfectly flat to the side of the runway." An examination of the airplane canopy latching mechanism and other airplane systems revealed no anomalies.
<<<
 
Matthew said:
Ahh, I re-read the accident report. It says “canopy went to the full open position”. I assumed it slid instead of hinged.

>>>
The pilot said that he did his run-up check and took the runway for takeoff. The airplane rotated, took off, and was climbing when approximately 80 feet above the ground, the canopy opened. The pilot said the canopy went to the full open position and the airplane subsequently yawed 45 degrees right. The pilot lowered the airplane's nose, applied full left rudder, and reduced the engine power to idle. The pilot said he then switched hands on the control stick and with his right hand, reached up and pulled the canopy closed. He said his airspeed was just above the stall speed and his wings were level. The airplane was approximately 20 feet above the ground when it "pancaked perfectly flat to the side of the runway." An examination of the airplane canopy latching mechanism and other airplane systems revealed no anomalies.
<<<
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Oh that's terrible. Thanks for following up. I didn't intend my post to be a correction, just acknowledgement that the RV-4 canopy is not easy to close in flight, nor is likely to remain attached if it does come open - this is the first I've heard of one opening fully and remaining attached. It is (historically) flyable without a canopy. There is a secondary latch available from Van's that's supposed to keep it from opening more than a small amount but not everyone (myself included) has installed it.

Nauga,
and his AMOC
 
nauga said:
Oh that's terrible. Thanks for following up. I didn't intend my post to be a correction, just acknowledgement that the RV-4 canopy is not easy to close in flight, nor is likely to remain attached if it does come open - this is the first I've heard of one opening fully and remaining attached. It is (historically) flyable without a canopy. There is a secondary latch available from Van's that's supposed to keep it from opening more than a small amount but not everyone (myself included) has installed it.

Nauga,
and his AMOC
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I didn’t take it as any kind of correction.

All theses years I thought it slid, not hinged.
 
There’s another part of this, besides flying the plane as 1st priority. That other component is RUSHING to get back on the ground. I’m talking about the tight pattern, 300’ AGL, while rushing and flustered. You don’t have to respond to the tower, just fly.

You just took off, often fueled for hours of flight. I go back to my mantra of the wings level climb, I even want the turns limited with problems after takeoff. Of course, if you have that mountain ahead, turn to avoid it. Get up to 800-1000+ AGL, settle down, develop a plan.

I think of AeroPeru 603, midnight out of Lima with the static ports taped from a wash job. The flew for 30 minutes, but returned for landing without a grasp of what they were dealing with. They had hours of fuel, good attitude information, but the airspeed & altitude was all erroneous. They ended up in the ocean.
 
I had a big guy in the right seat once who was leaning hard against the door in a Tecnam Eaglet. The door popped open and he looked kinda wide-eyed over at me. I said, "You're not going anywhere. That's what the seatbelt's for." He pulled it closed and all was fine.
 
Doors are for barns. Of course some canopies are problematic (Navions are non-events, you can even fly with it open or completely removed).

By the way, Baez may have sang that, but it was the great Pete Seeger who wrote those lyrics (the tune he borrowed from an existing Irish song).

It's still Jeffco to me.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
My first airplane was a 1957 Cessna 172. Those early models did not have very good latches, and it was fairly common for the passenger door to open when the plane flexed a bit on takeoff. My wife was convinced I had a way to do it on purpose.
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My primary instructor used to open the door in the 152 from time to time so I'd just slip the plane hard to his side when he did that.
 
donjohnston said:
Not all airplane doors are the same.

On a Velocity, a door opening inflight will result in a crash... Every time. That's why we have micro switches with warning lights that tell us if the door is not latched along with interlocks to prevent the door handle from moving.
Click to expand...

Well that's the Velocity off of my E-AB daydream list then.
 
I did a check for canopy-open accidents in my overall database for EAB RVs. Out of 730 total accidents (1998-2023), only ten had canopy openings listed as a factor. Three RV-4s, four RV-6/6As. Most of the probable causes list the canopy opening as a distraction.

FTW04LA189 7/18/2004 Vans RV-4
DEN06LA039 2/17/2006 Vans RV-4
WPR09LA218 4/26/2009 Vans RV-6
WPR10CA428 8/1/2010 Vans RV-8A
CEN10CA481 8/15/2010 Vans RV-6A
CEN13LA340 6/11/2013 Vans RV-12
CEN14FA306 6/20/2014 Vans RV-6
CEN16LA329 8/18/2016 Vans RV-6A
ERA22FA036 10/31/2021 Vans RV-4
ERA23LA153 1/31/2023 Vans RV-7A

This is based on a search for "Canopy" in the Probable Cause, weeding out cases where the canopy was mentioned for other reasons.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Ed Haywood said:
Especially when there is sufficient room for a traditional piper-style forward hinged door that should make door opening a non-event.
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Not really. The A-Pillar and upper door frame width don't lend themselves to a hinge with enough length. I spent a lot of time working on a forward hinge door. After doing some searching I only found two incidents where a door came open during flight. Given that and the amount of time a forward hinge door was going to take, I abandoned the modification. Easier just to make sure the door is latched.

Also, the most recent one about 15 years ago where the door departed and took out the prop. IIRC, the door was never latched before takeoff and the warning lights either weren't installed or were inop. I believe the previous one was before the interlocks were implemented.
 
First time I took off with a door incompletely closed (SR20) it was an absolute non-issue; maybe 5 knots slow for the power setting and a little noisier than usual. I'll give the credit to a design that makes that failure mode benign rather than my own ice-in-the-veins airmanship.

Designing a GA plane where an open door is catastrophic is just bonkers to me - but then again so is dying when an open door wasn't.

I have a much easier time imaging cockpit panic due to a huntsman spider. These bloody aussies are laughing like it's a baby smurf of something... smh

 
wanttaja said:
I did a check for canopy-open accidents in my overall database for EAB RVs. Out of 730 total accidents (1998-2023), only ten had canopy openings listed as a factor. Three RV-4s, four RV-6/6As. Most of the probable causes list the canopy opening as a distraction.

FTW04LA189 7/18/2004 Vans RV-4
DEN06LA039 2/17/2006 Vans RV-4
WPR09LA218 4/26/2009 Vans RV-6
WPR10CA428 8/1/2010 Vans RV-8A
CEN10CA481 8/15/2010 Vans RV-6A
CEN13LA340 6/11/2013 Vans RV-12
CEN14FA306 6/20/2014 Vans RV-6
CEN16LA329 8/18/2016 Vans RV-6A
ERA22FA036 10/31/2021 Vans RV-4
ERA23LA153 1/31/2023 Vans RV-7A

This is based on a search for "Canopy" in the Probable Cause, weeding out cases where the canopy was mentioned for other reasons.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
DEN06LA039 2/17/2006 Vans RV-4

That’s the one my buddy’s mom was in.
 
sourdough44 said:
There’s another part of this, besides flying the plane as 1st priority. That other component is RUSHING to get back on the ground. I’m talking about the tight pattern, 300’ AGL, while rushing and flustered. You don’t have to respond to the tower, just fly.

You just took off, often fueled for hours of flight. I go back to my mantra of the wings level climb, I even want the turns limited with problems after takeoff. Of course, if you have that mountain ahead, turn to avoid it. Get up to 800-1000+ AGL, settle down, develop a plan.

I think of AeroPeru 603, midnight out of Lima with the static ports taped from a wash job. The flew for 30 minutes, but returned for landing without a grasp of what they were dealing with. They had hours of fuel, good attitude information, but the airspeed & altitude was all erroneous. They ended up in the ocean.
Click to expand...
The SOP manual for my first club, under EMERGENCY PROCEDURES, points out that the ASI is the only required instrument. In the case of any other instrument failure, or an electrical failure, it instructs the pilot to aviate. To maintain a safe altitude and heading and then to calmly assess whether or not the flight can be completed safely without whatever just broke. Unlike so many POH's - which I suspect were written by lawyers, not pilots, or engineers - it does not call for a landing as soon as practical.
 
So far in my flying I've had:

152 window latch opened and window swung up, hit the bottom of the wing. Other than being startled, complete non-event
172 door open on climb out, absolute non event
172 flaps failed fully down after maneuvers. 10 miles of slow flight back to the field, complete non-event.

I am not the FAA 170lb standard pilot, so I can attribute all of the door/window issues to my size, not a mechanical issue.

I do feel a little safer in a Piper though lol
 
AvNavCom said:
If there was a huntsman spider in my cockpit, I would just choose death and nosedive into the ground.
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I almost did that flying a glider when a big spider crawled across the back of my neck. I landed as quickly as I could (not quick in a glider at altitude) and never did find the spider. I also never could bring myself to fly that one again.
 
I must have lucked out. About 10 years ago I was flying solo in a '66 Cherokee 180C, door popped open because I forgot to secure the top latch (last time that happened for me). Door popped open on take off. It was louder but the airplane was fine. Leveled off at cruise (US Northeast - 3500 ft) and latched the door, including the top latch. Didn't miss a beat. I figured if it was a problem I could easily get back to the airport. It wasn't sucking me out of the airplane or anything. I kept the seat belt on (which at the time was only the original lap belt), so I could maneuver across to pull the door shut.
 
So far for me in about 3 yrs of flying i've had doors open twice on me. Once in a sundowner when I was a noob sitting in the back seat and I was scared ****less and the second one in a cherokee which my friend didn't latch properly. I just came back and landed and closed the door. I've had the airspeed indicator no work once and the second time display abnormal reading which I just came in and landed based on "my feel" of the airspeed. The vacuum pump went out once and I did have a fuel leak into the cabin. Turned off the master switch which was interesting because aside from the loud noise, we had no tach. My pieaz de risestance was the motor dropping 500rpm in a 152 at around 30 ft with 1/3 runway left. Just cut the power immediately, full flaps and landed with about 100ft to spare.
 
francisco collazos said:
I've had the airspeed indicator no work once and the second time display abnormal reading which I just came in and landed based on "my feel" of the airspeed.
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Remember, "pitch plus power equals performance." If you know the power settings, you can do just fine without the airspeed indicator.
 
As a student pilot in a '70 Cherokee 140, I had the door pop at rotation after a fuel stop for a long X/C. I was tying up the only fuel pump and multiple people were sitting behind me waiting for me to finish fueling, so I rushed the startup and missed the door check. Great lesson to learn early. The only injury I suffered was my ego as I circled the pattern and landed to shut the door - the plane flew fine with a lot of noise and a small amount of yaw into the door.
 
TangoJulietTango said:
I suffered was my ego as I circled the pattern and landed to shut the door - the plane flew fine with a lot of noise and a small amount of yaw into the door.
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To be honest, I worry more about the cargo door than an open door on the cherokee. I feel like if that cargo door opens in flight it will shear off right into the stabilator. Multiple times, my paranoia got to me and I had to shut the engine down to look at the hatch. DId find one time that the rudder was flopping in the wind on one of my walk arounds. Seems like the attachment to the foot pedals was broken.
 
At about 14,000 over Rockies, R172K. Baggage door opened. Both of us (pilots) in front seat were laughing at dumb pilot (me) trick of not key locking baggage door. However both back seat (non-pilots) passengers were terrified. One yelling "my bag is going to drop out". We were going to continue to SBS but panic from back seat led to landing LXV. Upside; both back seaters got the "I've landed at Leadville" cert. I understand they were so proud that they hung the cert on the wall at home
 
and there is all this talk about Grumman canopies being dangerous, because they can get stuck in a crash(not a single recorded incident). A Grumman is allowed to fly with an open canopy(nonevent if it unlatches midflight).

On another note, I think this is the 5th or 6th open door crash this year, with 2-3 being bonanza/barons. That's too much.
 
francisco collazos said:
…. DId find one time that the rudder was flopping in the wind on one of my walk arounds. Seems like the attachment to the foot pedals was broken.
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Francisco, as you probably know, the rudder is almost unnecessary in PA-28s under normal circumstances. The usual need for rudder comes in cross wind landings, and ground steering. On my check ride pre-test by a CFI I had not flown with before, he commented “your feet are dead!”

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Francisco, as you probably know, the rudder is almost unnecessary in PA-28s under normal circumstances. The usual need for rudder comes in cross wind landings, and ground steering. On my check ride pre-test by a CFI I had not flown with before, he commented “your feet are dead!"
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Sorry but I had to chuckle at the consistency between these two statements.
 
In my Tiger, I intentionally fly around sometimes with the door…er….. canopy open. :p
 
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