Why I don't fly "missions" anymore

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
This is a small part of why I don't fly formation, but there is more to that story than just this. This story is just what lead me to decline if someone asks me to participate in a multiple plane flight (not formation) unless I know them well and have flown with them often.

This situation was that I happened to be flying a dog rescue with another pilot. He did all the coordination and asked me to fly my lance to pick up a total of 21 dogs between our two planes. He insisted I meet him at his airport so that his crew could help prepare my plane to carry the dogs safely and without damage to the plane, and that we depart together to pick up the dogs.

The first problem started when I called and let him know I would be a few minutes late because my field was still IFR. It was clearing quickly and I could leave soon, but I'd be 10 or 15 minutes later than we agreed. He argued with me "aren't you IFR rated", "yes I am, but I'm not going to fly IMC to save 10 minutes on a dog rescue flight. Sorry, it's not worth it, I'll leave as soon as I can." He was not happy with that, and that's how the day began. I arrived 10 minutes later than we had agreed.

Then he tells me he wants a pilot friend of his to ride along with me so she could get experience in a different plane. His attitude about this did not set very well with me either, but I like flying with different people so I agreed. So I was flying with someone I'd never met and had no idea what their experience level was.

She was pleasant and other than being too chatty during my takeoff checklist, which caused me to miss closing and locking the door, was not an issue with the flight at all, so she was not relevant except that I wanted to circle back and land and re-run the checklist rather than have a relative stranger closing and latching my door in flight.

Anyway, we arrive where the dogs were some time after the "mission leader" did due to my returning to close the door (and my plane is slower). Which upset him. At that point we promptly sat and waited for 3 hours for the dogs to be ready to go..... Not an issue for me, but why is he pressuring me on time when I was not the one holding up the proceedings?

Once the dogs were ready I started loading up and prepping. The "mission leader" approached me to do a bunch of calculations to decide when we were going to depart. I looked at him like he was crazy and said "I'm going to depart when I feel I am ready to safely make the flight". He wanted us to depart together and arrive at a specific time back at our delivery point, so we had to hold to hit that mark. There was going to be weather later in the day that I wanted to beat, so I had no interest in meeting some arbitrary arrival time. We were in planes that had different cruise speeds and I want to do this safe and VFR and without stressing myself out any more than having 15 dogs in my plane is already going to stress me. After a bit of argument, I ignored him and left when I felt comfortable leaving. (and ironically he still beat me back)

My lesson learned is that you're going to be pressured into doing stupid crap when hitching your wagon to someone else's plan. I'm not gonna do it again.
 
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that dude sounds like a tool. I wouldn't let him dictate what happens with everyone else. I've flown a ton of pups and while there is ALWAYS a risk of delays, maintenance issues, weather, etc, I've always had good luck and worked with mostly decent people. one time a guy was just plain friggin weird but it didn't impact me or the flight at all. but yes, there is always a risk of some weird sht happening. do it for the dogs/people, not the other pilots.
 
Mass arrival/departures in airplanes, motorcycle "poker runs" and camper "caravaning" are all things that just don't appeal to me. I did a Young Eagles event last year that had about 8 aircraft flying 40 kids. That was not something I'd want to be involved in again. I'll fly Young Eagles anytime. But just not part of a big group.
 
Salty said:
This is a small part of why I don't fly formation, but there is more to that story than just this. This story is just what lead me to decline if someone asks me to participate in a multiple plane flight (not formation) unless I know them well and have flown with them often.

This situation was that I happened to be flying a dog rescue with another pilot. He did all the coordination and asked me to fly my lance to pick up a total of 21 dogs between our two planes. He insisted I meet him at his airport so that his crew could help prepare my plane to carry the dogs safely and without damage to the plane, and that we depart together to pick up the dogs.

The first problem started when I called and let him know I would be a few minutes late because my field was still IFR. It was clearing quickly and I could leave soon, but I'd be 10 or 15 minutes later than we agreed. He argued with me "aren't you IFR certified", "yes I am, but I'm not going to fly IMC to save 10 minutes on a dog rescue flight. Sorry, it's not worth it, I'll leave as soon as I can." He was not happy with that, and that's how the day began. I arrived 10 minutes later than we had agreed.

Then he tells me he wants a pilot friend of his to ride along with me so she could get experience in a different plane. His attitude about this did not set very well with me either, but I like flying with different people so I agreed. So I was flying with someone I'd never met and had no idea what their experience level was.

She was pleasant and other than being too chatty during my takeoff checklist, which caused me to miss closing and locking the door, was not an issue with the flight at all, so she was not relevant except that I wanted to circle back and land and re-run the checklist rather than have a relative stranger closing and latching my door in flight.

Anyway, we arrive where the dogs were some time after the "mission leader" did due to my returning to close the door (and my plane is slower). Which upset him. At that point we promptly sat and waited for 3 hours for the dogs to be ready to go..... Not an issue for me, but why is he pressuring me on time when I was not the one holding up the proceedings?

Once the dogs were ready I started loading up and prepping. The "mission leader" approached me to do a bunch of calculations to decide when we were going to depart. I looked at him like he was crazy and said "I'm going to depart when I feel I am ready to safely make the flight". He wanted us to depart together and arrive at a specific time back at our delivery point, so we had to hold to hit that mark. There was going to be weather later in the day that I wanted to beat, so I had no interest in meeting some arbitrary arrival time. We were in planes that had different cruise speeds and I want to do this safe and VFR and without stressing myself out any more than having 15 dogs in my plane is already going to stress me. After a bit of argument, I ignored him and left when I felt comfortable leaving. (and ironically he still beat me back)

My lesson learned is that you're going to be pressured into doing stupid crap when hitching your wagon to someone else's plan. I'm not gonna do it again.
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There's a lot of people out there who possess a remarkably misplaced sense of authority.

I find that one of life's great joys is very publicly undermining their authority at every turn and ****ing them off, just to show them how little control they have over the situation. I'd prefer to earn people's buy-in and respect rather than try to dictate how they're going to do things. Especially when those people are volunteering their time, money and airplane.

But honestly, thank god you just did 1 flight with him. Imagine if you worked for a guy like that, or were married to one. F that.
 
So you are volunteering your plane, your time, and your gas and oil to fly around a load of dogs, and this dude is putting a lot of arbitrary stipulations on you? Hard pass on doing that again
 
That’s annoying, just go at your own pace is all you can do. And avoid being around that guy in the future.
 
Salty said:
She was pleasant and other than being too chatty during my takeoff checklist, which caused me to miss closing and locking the door,
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I'm not an instructor, but I'll give plenty of advice... and sometimes it's appreciated! I tell people not to walk over to someone when they're pre-flighting. Leave them alone for a minute! Also, if you're preflighting, or running through a checklist and someone interrupts you, start over, but make sure you let them know why!

wilkersk said:
Mass arrival/departures in airplanes, motorcycle "poker runs" and camper "caravaning" are all things that just don't appeal to me. I did a Young Eagles event last year that had about 8 aircraft flying 40 kids. That was not something I'd want to be involved in again. I'll fly Young Eagles anytime.
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I've seen more accidents and near accidents from mass-arrivals at KOSH that I can count. A friend of mine damaged his Hatz when the guy in front of him suddenly landed short. He had to swerve and hit one of the landing lights, putting a big gash in his wing. Year after year, peoeple tell me how flying in the mass-arrivals are their favorite part. Not for me!

I gave some Young Eagles rides, but it was not coordinated well and some of the pilots started making radio calls of "Young Eagles Flight 10 miles out..." I've given a lot of kids their first rides in airplanes, but like you, I'll avoid the big group events now.
 
wilkersk said:
Mass arrival/departures in airplanes, motorcycle "poker runs" and camper "caravaning" are all things that just don't appeal to me. I did a Young Eagles event last year that had about 8 aircraft flying 40 kids. That was not something I'd want to be involved in again. I'll fly Young Eagles anytime. But just not part of a big group.
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We do a young eagles event at our airport. What are some issues you enountered? I want to make sure we avoid them to not upset the pilots or passengers. We've not had any complaints, but just making sure. Thanks!!
 
I once watched a Civil Air Patrol guy do a 45 minute long preflight with a group of kids, carefully explaining what each part of the airplane was down to the smallest screw in great detail………………..and then load up the first three kids for a ride and start up without pulling the chocks. :rofl:
 
Dave Theisen said:
I once watched a Civil Air Patrol guy do a 45 minute long preflight with a group of kids, carefully explaining what each part of the airplane was down to the smallest screw in great detail………………..and then load up the first three kids for a ride and start up without pulling the chocks. :rofl:
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My very first Lifeline Pilots flight. Got the two women and their bags loaded in the Cherokee. Start engine. Try to move forward. Chocks still under the wheels.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
There's a lot of people out there who possess a remarkably misplaced sense of authority.
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I've read that pilots tend to have strong egos...many seem to have a sense of their way is the best no matter what any other pilot may think.

I'm getting ready to move to a new house ~180 miles away, including flying my plane to a new hangar. Having just an open-cockpit fun airplane, I haven't flown that far in ~30 years. But I intend on flying the stretch the way I always have, chart on my lap, $100 hiking GPS with four waypoints on a temporary mount. Pure pilotage. I'm just waiting for clear weather; each waypoint is thus visible from the previous one.

Yet this seems to offend some pilots. "You aren't planning your flight using Foreflight?" "You should borrow a portable Garmin!" "You AREN'T using flight following????!!!!"

I've got the hiking GPS (which I've used before, and is readable in direct sunlight in the open cockpit), I've cut up a new sectional to make it easier to manage in the breeze (I use the one-cheek-sneak method of stowage). Oh, and for 90% of the route, I can just follow I-5. The only part where I don't follow the highway is when it's passing through Tacoma and Olympia and the Class D airspaces at McChord and OLM, and if the weather is clear, I can actually see the join-up point with I-5 from the pattern of my home airport. And like I said, I'm just waiting on the weather. Brand-new battery in the ELT (though my plane doesn't require an ELT), charged phone, friends and family given access to Flightaware to track my ADS-B out.

Going to be fun, though my plane is so packed with just-in-case equipment that I'm going to have to borrow Reacher's toothbrush when I get to Portland.

It's an adventure I'm looking forward to, but it's like some pilots have relegated pilotage to the OX-5 era.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
EdFred said:
My very first Lifeline Pilots flight. Got the two women and their bags loaded in the Cherokee. Start engine. Try to move forward. Chocks still under the wheels.
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It's all about how you present yourself to your passengers:

Glance at the checklist. "Chocks holding correctly. Check!"
 
Some of this is on you for not putting your foot down and exercising pic privileges. You did initially so good on that. But you could have and should have told the pax to shut up any time youre using the checklist.

As for everything else about the day. I know you gave your word to help. But sometimes you need to know when to walk away from a situation. I'll be the a hole. I'm not getting pressured into a situation again.
 
mcdewey said:
We do a young eagles event at our airport. What are some issues you enountered? I want to make sure we avoid them to not upset the pilots or passengers. We've not had any complaints, but just making sure. Thanks!!
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If I were managing a YE event, I'd require experienced marshallers to direct AC into and out of ramp parking, defined "pull-through" AC parking spots and one-way taxi lanes. And I'd have prebriefed and assigned routes altitudes and areas based on AC performance.

I do not like taxiing in from a YE flight with a couple of kids onboard only to find six different aircraft parked 6 different ways with the only spots available accross the ramp requiring kids walk across an active flight line and no volunteers available to greet them at the aircraft.
 
Salty said:
… He insisted … that we depart together to pick up the dogs…..
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Should this have been a clue he did not intend for you to be a PIC?

I have no problem hitting a TOT, but slips/rolexing is part of the game. More importantly if someone intends to operate as a flight if aircraft, that is really difficult to do when there’s performance mismatches between the aircraft involved.
 
wanttaja said:
I've read that pilots tend to have strong egos...many seem to have a sense of their way is the best no matter what any other pilot may think.

I'm getting ready to move to a new house ~180 miles away, including flying my plane to a new hangar. Having just an open-cockpit fun airplane, I haven't flown that far in ~30 years. But I intend on flying the stretch the way I always have, chart on my lap, $100 hiking GPS with four waypoints on a temporary mount. Pure pilotage. I'm just waiting for clear weather; each waypoint is thus visible from the previous one.

Yet this seems to offend some pilots. "You aren't planning your flight using Foreflight?" "You should borrow a portable Garmin!" "You AREN'T using flight following????!!!!"

I've got the hiking GPS (which I've used before, and is readable in direct sunlight in the open cockpit), I've cut up a new sectional to make it easier to manage in the breeze (I use the one-cheek-sneak method of stowage). Oh, and for 90% of the route, I can just follow I-5. The only part where I don't follow the highway is when it's passing through Tacoma and Olympia and the Class D airspaces at McChord and OLM, and if the weather is clear, I can actually see the join-up point with I-5 from the pattern of my home airport. And like I said, I'm just waiting on the weather. Brand-new battery in the ELT (though my plane doesn't require an ELT), charged phone, friends and family given access to Flightaware to track my ADS-B out.

Going to be fun, though my plane is so packed with just-in-case equipment that I'm going to have to borrow Reacher's toothbrush when I get to Portland.

It's an adventure I'm looking forward to, but it's like some pilots have relegated pilotage to the OX-5 era.....

Ron Wanttaja
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Not sure I would call it pilotage if I used a GPS, but agree there is nothing wrong with a hiking GPS and sectional. I went for 4 years with VORs, then my receiver broke and I flew pilotage for a few years, just map and compass, then in 2001 or so bought a hiking GPS and used that all over the country for 15 years, then I bought an iPhone I now use FltPLanGo (it is free--not sure why anyone would pay for ForeFlight, but difference strokes and all...)
 
1) Good for you for helping some pups get to a good home.
2) 15 dogs? Are you flying a DC3?
3) Don't let other people get in your way or under your skin and prevent you from doing flights to help dogs and cats get adopted, etc. There will always somewhere be "that kind of guy / gal" out there. They don't control your paycheck, don't give you a review, etc. Why give them the ability to annoy.
 
WDD said:
2) 15 dogs? Are you flying a DC3?
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In a Lance, that wouldn't be an issue at all as long as they aren't Great Danes or something that size.
 
They were mostly around 10 pounds, and nothing over 30.
 
This brings me to the topic of the dog rescues. I just frankly don't get it. It seems like a scam to me. I flew up to Alabama regularly and brought dogs down to Florida. It started to feel to me like it was enabling puppy mills on my dime. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll fly relief for humans now, but not animals.
 
Salty said:
This brings me to the topic of the dog rescues. I just frankly don't get it. It seems like a scam to me. I flew up to Alabama regularly and brought dogs down to Florida. It started to feel to me like it was enabling puppy mills on my dime. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll fly relief for humans now, but not animals.
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My local area pilot groups are full of choosing-beggar energy to move dogs around by airplane. I never understood why someone doesn't just get a van and drive the doggos to their new homes. Anyone can do it. It costs 1/10 as much. You can take 10x as many animals in one go. They'll likely enjoy air conditioning and less ear popping.

Lavishing personal air transport to evacuate pups out of a kill shelter has always seemed.... extravagant to me. I appreciate the good intentions, but... Iunno. I can't describe my distaste in a satisfying way.

I'm mostly cool with Angel Flight and the like, although it's cut from similar cloth. I had a few AFW missions that were real rooster wagons that thought I was their uber driver. The self-congratulatory "ceremonies" for AFW were so cringe-inducing that I stopped doing the flights after my committed flights wrapped up.

The Operation Air Drop stuff looks best to me. I just don't live near tornadoes. :)
 
Salty said:
This brings me to the topic of the dog rescues. I just frankly don't get it. It seems like a scam to me. I flew up to Alabama regularly and brought dogs down to Florida. It started to feel to me like it was enabling puppy mills on my dime. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll fly relief for humans now, but not animals.
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I’m pretty selective these days in which ones I’ll do. I’ve worked with a couple of groups so I trust what they’re doing. Other groups take full advantage of the process. I prefer trips where either 1) I’m handing off a dog(s) to the actual adopter or 2) it’s a new or interesting destination so I can do the dog flight and check out a new spot at the same time.
 
mcdewey said:
We do a young eagles event at our airport. What are some issues you enountered? I want to make sure we avoid them to not upset the pilots or passengers. We've not had any complaints, but just making sure. Thanks!!
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We've been running YE for over 30 years, got it down to a science. Not unusual to run 24-36 kids.
1) A well-run, experienced ground crew responsible for safety, including escorting kids and parents to/from the airplane. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE is allowed on the ramp without an escort. Ground crew also handles marshalling aircraft in & out of ramp area. Usually have 10-14 ground crew along with 1 person to handle certificates and a second to take photos.
2) If towered airport, make friends with the tower crew. Day before a rally, I send the list of N numbers and aircraft type to the tower. We get special squawk codes. No special handling, but its another eye on watching over us.
3) If more than 2x the number of airplanes, schedule the kids so they and parents aren't sitting around. 6 airplanes? Assume 20-30 min per flight, meaning close the doors, runup, wheels up, route, then land, take photo. That's about an hour, so schedule the next group of 12 for an hour later.
4) Do not be afraid to cancel by dinner time the day before due to weather or lack of ground or pilots.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Year after year, peoeple tell me how flying in the mass-arrivals are their favorite part. Not for me!
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I did Bonanzas 2 Osh one year and was pretty impressed with how well it was planned, briefed and executed. Once on the field it was great being in the group area as well. I do warbirds now but I see the appeal if it’s well run, although for me it’s less about the flying than the parking and camaraderie.
 
I have zero interest in ever doing a flight of >4 aircraft. I have great interest in doing well organized flights of 2-4 aircraft.

I flew into Osh with a buddy last year. I held on his wing until they directed us into close trail at RIPON. I stayed close as we lined up on 36R. Tower directed him to land on red square, me on green. He landed on the threshold numbers. He taxied at 65mph to the far end while I flew in ground effect at 60mph behind him, then I landed and taxied off. He adamantly denied having been given a landing spot, but ATC Live resolved that debate. We both laughed our rear ends off about the whole thing. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.
 
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When I was a fairly new pilot, I was flying a Cherokee 140 in to KHAF for an annual classic car and aircraft show. A temporary tower was set up and it was NOTAM'd.

I had called them up, and as I was downwind, they kept asking me "are you in a flight of four?" The reception wasn't good and they had to ask three times before I could hear the question, so I responded "no."

Then they said "land on the right side of the runway, and long." I looked to my left, and saw an airplane beside me. I looked behind, and saw two behind me.

I landed, long, and to the right. But I was more than p$$$d off, and spent the better part of half an hour trying to track down the offenders so I could give them a piece of my mind. I didn't find them. It was probably for the best.
 
schmookeeg said:
My local area pilot groups are full of choosing-beggar energy to move dogs around by airplane. I never understood why someone doesn't just get a van and drive the doggos to their new homes. Anyone can do it. It costs 1/10 as much. You can take 10x as many animals in one go. They'll likely enjoy air conditioning and less ear popping.

Lavishing personal air transport to evacuate pups out of a kill shelter has always seemed.... extravagant to me. I appreciate the good intentions, but... Iunno. I can't describe my distaste in a satisfying way.

I'm mostly cool with Angel Flight and the like, although it's cut from similar cloth. I had a few AFW missions that were real rooster wagons that thought I was their uber driver. The self-congratulatory "ceremonies" for AFW were so cringe-inducing that I stopped doing the flights after my committed flights wrapped up.

The Operation Air Drop stuff looks best to me. I just don't live near tornadoes. :)
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Yeah, I never got the dog thing. It's mostly an excuse to go fly, which is fine, but I'm see a lot of pilots who act like they deserve a medal for doing it.

I do respect and enjoy the people fights. I've done about 20. LLP does a good job of screening them i feel. I've had a couple who gave a crazy person vibe or acted entitled, but for the most part they have serious illnesses and need to travel. As a person who hates both driving and airlines with a passion, I can get behind offering these people a little help while they're dealing with a really crappy situation. There's also about 20% that legitimately can't deal with the airlines and for whom driving would be a real hardship. Those are really rewarding.

Ive had similar experiences with young eagles. The kids will are really into it make it worthwhile. I know i got hooked on little airplanes at about age 8, so I feel like I'm paying that experience forward. I think it depends a lot on your chapter. We have a good system, and we'll fly 80-100 kids every month.

Only once have I had an issue; a guy decided on his own to switch runways. It wasn't a close call really, but I had to maneuver away from him. It was dealt with appropriately. If im honest though, I prefer doing them at the towered fields.
 
I presumed that flying dogs (especially shelter dogs) entailed much less liability that flying humans. That's probably why the animal charities aren't as picky about pilot quals compared to Angel Flight, and hence why more pilots clear the bar to fly the mission. If you run the flight through a 501(c)(3) organization, the pilot deducts the direct OP EX -- net net, you get the IRS to pay 30% of the flight bill.
 
DJTorrente said:
I presumed that flying dogs (especially shelter dogs) entailed much less liability that flying humans. That's probably why the animal charities aren't as picky about pilot quals compared to Angel Flight, and hence why more pilots clear the bar to fly the mission. If you run the flight through a 501(c)(3) organization, the pilot deducts the direct OP EX -- net net, you get the IRS to pay 30% of the flight bill.
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Yeahhhhhhh at the expense of goring someone's else's ox, that seems like poor value for us taxpayers to be subsidizing.
 
schmookeeg said:
Yeahhhhhhh at the expense of goring someone's else's ox, that seems like poor value for us taxpayers to be subsidizing.
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Why is taking fuel & oil deduction for Public Benefit Flying 501(c)3 off Schedule A any different than any other 501(c) deduction? If I participate in Meals on Wheels, using my personal car, I can deduct 14 cents/mile. EAA membership is tax deductible, too, since EAA is 501(c)3.
 
murphey said:
Why is taking fuel & oil deduction for Public Benefit Flying 501(c)3 off Schedule A any different than any other 501(c) deduction? If I participate in Meals on Wheels, using my personal car, I can deduct 14 cents/mile. EAA membership is tax deductible, too, since EAA is 501(c)3.
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I haven't come close to exceeding the standard deduction since 200. . . 9/10.

Where are you getting all these deductions?
 
EdFred said:
I haven't come close to exceeding the standard deduction since 200. . . 9/10.

Where are you getting all these deductions?
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state/local taxes
real estate tax
mortgage interest
charitable giving

I wound up with about 5k over the standard MFJ deduction. The joy of living in a high tax state.
 
schmookeeg said:
My local area pilot groups are full of choosing-beggar energy to move dogs around by airplane. I never understood why someone doesn't just get a van and drive the doggos to their new homes. Anyone can do it. It costs 1/10 as much. You can take 10x as many animals in one go. They'll likely enjoy air conditioning and less ear popping.

Lavishing personal air transport to evacuate pups out of a kill shelter has always seemed.... extravagant to me. I appreciate the good intentions, but... Iunno. I can't describe my distaste in a satisfying way.

I'm mostly cool with Angel Flight and the like, although it's cut from similar cloth. I had a few AFW missions that were real rooster wagons that thought I was their uber driver. The self-congratulatory "ceremonies" for AFW were so cringe-inducing that I stopped doing the flights after my committed flights wrapped up.

The Operation Air Drop stuff looks best to me. I just don't live near tornadoes. :)
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I have to weigh in on this. Used to fly dogs, have not lately due to time constraints. In this podcast (at about the end) I tell Travis why I like flying them— they don’t complain. I even mention the old shibboleth about lock your wife in the trunk, and your dog, who’s happy to see you when you open it? I cannot believe he kept that part in.

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EdFred said:
I haven't come close to exceeding the standard deduction since 200. . . 9/10.

Where are you getting all these deductions?
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I didn't say I was getting deductions for each of these...I haven't hit the standard deduction in years, either. But schmookeeg's comment was why should the public subsidize Public Benefit flying, which Pilots n Paws and other legit animal transports that are 501(c)3 so I listed other legit deductions.
 
murphey said:
Why is taking fuel & oil deduction for Public Benefit Flying 501(c)3 off Schedule A any different than any other 501(c) deduction? If I participate in Meals on Wheels, using my personal car, I can deduct 14 cents/mile. EAA membership is tax deductible, too, since EAA is 501(c)3.
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It's not. I have a lot of problems with what we define as charity which are out of scope of this conversation (and probably the ToS)

However if you are honestly comparing adopt-a-doggo-flying-express to meals on wheels (why not meals on airplanes? Maybe someone in Kansas really wants a Salisbury Steak at 200kts? Why can't society provide this??) in terms of value and public good, then I'm not sure we'll agree on any aspect of this topic. Respectfully. :)
 
Yall are gonna hate me, but our total property taxes for three properties is around 3 AMUs for the year.
 
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