AP Use

[Captain]

I swear to god I see this all the time....

Guys take off and hand fly forever. I do not have a problem with this. Hand fly all you want. It's a tad more work for me as now I have to closely watch altitudes and courses and such...but whatever, knock yourself out hand fly away. I do it myself from time to time. Usually I turn on the AP once I get cleared to a fix and the AP tracks a course way better than me. I'm pretty good and headings and can hold a course in a pinch...but if the AP is there I use it when it makes my life more enjoyable...

But here's what I don't get. Many of these same guys who love to hand fly on departure also LOVE to use the autopilot to fly a visual approach. ATC clears us for the visual and the guy is nonstop on the flight control panel (FCP) making minor adjustments to vertical speed and heading trying to line us up with the runway. Why not just pop off the autopilot and land? Seriously...

I'm a firm believer that a professional pilot should be able to manuver his or her plane from anywhere and land on any runway with any alignment. 'You're here...go land there'. That shouldn't be a problem ever for a professional pilot.

And yet so many guys I see drive themselves nuts trying to fly a visual approach with an autopilot. Why they can't just click it off and land like a normal pilot I'll never understand and it drives me freaking bonkers.

 

[Henning]

Because playing with in VMC is the easier safer way to learn to work the system with finesse than in IMC? Don't know, I don't have one so I don't fuss with it much.

 

[timwinters]

What's an autopilot?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You have a kill switch on your side, accidentally poke it when drawing back from resetting your altimeter or something.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

But here's what I don't get. Many of these same guys who love to hand fly on departure also LOVE to use the autopilot to fly a visual approach. ATC clears us for the visual and the guy is nonstop on the flight control panel (FCP) making minor adjustments to vertical speed and heading trying to line us up with the runway. Why not just pop off the autopilot and land? Seriously...

Amen!

 

[Captain]

Also, because they want the plane to descend and not capture an altitude they spin the altitude preselect all the way down to subterranean.

Just seems bad form to set an altitude in the preselect that's lethal to fly. Sort of like building a fix inside a mountain.

 

[Henning]

Also, because they want the plane to descend and not capture an altitude they spin the altitude preselect all the way down to subterranean.

Just seems bad form to set an altitude in the preselect that's lethal to fly. Sort of like building a fix inside a mountain.

I would think to set it for DH.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

They are probably just annoyed by the altitude alerter. About akin to you being annoyed by these little things!

 

[John Collins]

Captain,

Isn't it SOP for airlines to follow the ILS if one is available on a visual approach? There is a warning when flying a visual approach in large Turbojet aircraft in Class B to make sure you don't accidentally exit the Class B floor and get a PD as a result.

 

[Henning]

Captain,

Isn't it SOP for airlines to follow the ILS if one is available on a visual approach? There is a warning when flying a visual approach in large Turbojet aircraft in Class B to make sure you don't accidentally exit the Class B floor and get a PD as a result.

That only applies to a few airports in the world.

 

[AWACSEng]

Also, because they want the plane to descend and not capture an altitude they spin the altitude preselect all the way down to subterranean.

Just seems bad form to set an altitude in the preselect that's lethal to fly. Sort of like building a fix inside a mountain.

Mostly, I agree with you. Except the way some auto pilots work, you have to dial in dirt or else you will not break out at minimums without blast past the MAP. The G-V's I fly on are like this for, I believe, RNAV approaches. When we are using VNAV guidance, the autopilot will start to level off 50' prior to the MDA. By dialing in field elevation, the airplane will continue on the glidepath. The PF/PM have the responsibility of initiating the missed approach if required.

And we do it on a visual approach to avoid the altitude alerter. Technique only, though. Some folks just set TPA or missed approach altitude.

 

[Captain]

Yes, if an ILS is avail I always have it up, even on a visual. You don't have to couple it though, just have it displayed for refrence.

My preselecter is disregarded when the vertical mode is GP. The FD and AP will drive the plane right into the runway if no pilot action is taken so we set the missed approach altitude when shooting an ILS. Min altitude for the AP on a precision approach is 200'.

I just talking about a standard run of the mill visual approach. I find it ironic that the same guy who hand flies into the flight levels also drives the ship with the AP on using heading and vertical speed. It's not like it's the one off time to see if they can do it or something. It's very common and I simply don't get it.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I simply don't get it.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Smoke em if you got em. If you have the capability to fly a coupled approach, why wouldn't you want to be proficient in the use of the system? Doesn't relieve you of the responsibly to be able to hand fly it.

Even with a single axis AP, it's still nice to be able to lock it in on the localizer and focus more attention on maintaining the glide path.

 

[Captain]

Trust me, proficiency in auto pilot use is (not) a problem. Of my 800'ish hours last year I'd bet over 700 of it was with he AP on. If anything commercial pilots should try to hand fly more to keep skills up.

Many times on a VFR day I'll shoot an ils bareback...hand flown with the flight director off. Old school, track the loc and gp like a real pilot without the automation.



edit to add 'not' in the parenthesis above.

 

[Ted]

Trust me, proficiency in auto pilot use is a problem. Of my 800'ish hours last year I'd be over 700 of it was with he AP on. If anything commercial pilots should try to hand fly more to keep skills up.

This has been diagnosed as a problem with safety - pilots forgetting how to operate without automation. I'd say the areas where it causes the most trouble are probably first Cirrus pilots, followed secondly by airlines.

Many times on a VFR day I'll shoot an ils bareback...hand flown with the flight director off. Old school, track the loc and gp like a real pilot without the automation.

I get yelled at when I do that in the Commander. *sigh*

I do it anyway.

 

[Captain]

Oops. I missed the word 'not'.

It should have read, "Trust me, proficiency in AP use is NOT a problem".

Sorry.

 

[peppy]

This has been diagnosed as a problem with safety - pilots forgetting how to operate without automation. I'd say the areas where it causes the most trouble are probably first Cirrus pilots, followed secondly by airlines.

It does cut both ways. Look at the Cirrus crash near Chicago. The pilot was 200 hours with just a few hours of transition training into the Cirrus. I listened to the tower recordings and what I hear is a VFR pilot hand flying in IMC because he doesn't know how to use the AP. There is a great American Airlines training video which discusses stepping up and down the ladder from full FMS auto to hand flying and that the issue is picking the right balance for the situation.

 

[denverpilot]

What's an autopilot?

Ditto.

Mine's worthless other than maybe being within 20 degrees of course if you have to dig for something in the back.

I let it fly for a while today just for the comedy.

 

[Ted]

It does cut both ways. Look at the Cirrus crash near Chicago. The pilot was 200 hours with just a few hours of transition training into the Cirrus. I listened to the tower recordings and what I hear is a VFR pilot hand flying in IMC because he doesn't know how to use the AP. There is a great American Airlines training video which discusses stepping up and down the ladder from full FMS auto to hand flying and that the issue is picking the right balance for the situation.

That's the first time I've heard of a Cirrus pilot having problems because he doesn't know how to use the AP!

And yes, that American Airlines video is very much worth watching.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

There is a great American Airlines training video which discusses stepping up and down the ladder from full FMS auto to hand flying and that the issue is picking the right balance for the situation.

I send this to all of my students. It's an excellent clip.

 

[Captain]

I love how he goes head down and mocks typing onto a typewriter. If my runway changed it would take me less than 5 seconds to load a new approach and clean it up. The FMS auto tunes the ILS freq and course so in the big picture it save time.

I get the guys point that flying the plane takes priority and sometimes you just have to look out the window and do you job. But he himself set the story up at 30 out with a runway change. I guarantee you I can change a silly runway in the box in that time and not be head down with both arms over my head oblivious to reality around me.

I'm for using all assets as long as they help. If they hinder then get rid of them.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I'm big on autopilot usage when I've got one. If it's there, why not use it to lower the workload, especially something like the GFC700. I did my CFII as my initial checkride, and actually got to teach the DPE how to use it, as he'd never flown one. That is an amazing autopilot for the price.

Then again, my last 700 hours are in aircraft with no autopilot, so it's been a while.
​

 

[Ted]

I'm big on autopilot usage when I've got one. If it's there, why not use it to lower the workload, especially something like the GFC700. I did my CFII as my initial checkride, and actually got to teach the DPE how to use it, as he'd never flown one. That is an amazing autopilot for the price.

Most pilots enjoy using the autopilot, and it does serve to reduce workload and is a valuable tool.

However, when proficiency at flying the aircraft suffers, then that is a problem. The Cirrus pilot is the standard scapegoat here since most of the ones I've seen hit the AP at 500 ft and keep it on until 500 ft on final approach.

I believe that hand flying, even in straight-and-level flight, helps you to get to know the aircraft. Fine adjustments in trim and the movements of your hands translate into the aircraft becoming an extension of your body when it counts. Certainly it's not required to hand fly all the time, but it's good to make a point of hand flying regularly.

 

[Henning]

Most pilots enjoy using the autopilot, and it does serve to reduce workload and is a valuable tool.

However, when proficiency at flying the aircraft suffers, then that is a problem. The Cirrus pilot is the standard scapegoat here since most of the ones I've seen hit the AP at 500 ft and keep it on until 500 ft on final approach.

I believe that hand flying, even in straight-and-level flight, helps you to get to know the aircraft. Fine adjustments in trim and the movements of your hands translate into the aircraft becoming an extension of your body when it counts. Certainly it's not required to hand fly all the time, but it's good to make a point of hand flying regularly.

I see the same, that's why I consider SVT the better value in my book hence why I git the glass before the AP and I'll unlock the SVT before taking it on an IFR trp. I'm not anti AP, but it really isn't a chore for me to hand fly since I have all but a few hours doing it. Also the failure rate of of autopilots in my experience having them make uncommanded turns and other fun things. Many pf the ones I have turned on we're so in need of service that I'd hand fly out of annoyance of the inaccuracy of the way it was flying. In the scheme of things to me, the AP is the lowest value piece of equipment in the panel. I don't mind them, but there are a lot of things I'll spend $25k on first.

 

[Captain]

I've never flown a light GA plane with an AP so I don't know about that. But the AP's I've flown have all done exactly what their supposed to (with very few exceptions) and I'd say it's one of the most safety enhancing pieces of equipment I have. It allows me to let go of the yoke and use my hands to do things like write stuff down. More importantly it frees my mind from having to actually fly and allows me to sit back and monitor the flight path.

Ever sit in the back seat during someone elses lesson? Notice how easy it is to spot errors when all you have to worry about is sitting there and looking for them? Well that's the point of an AP. I can sit there and spot issues with my full mind. Makes for a much safer flight.

That's why it's important for me to click it off from time to time. If I simply flew every flight from 500' to 200' with the AP on stick and rudder would suffer.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, try using a 30 year old Century that the average (cheapskate) GA owner has. The 172 I rented in CA last year the AP would make a hard left every 20 minutes and that was on a 8 year old plane with a KAP unit in a busy training rental fleet that charges top dollar.

 

[bbchien]

Yes. Children of Magenta is stellar.

When I watch the crews doing their six monthlies, the generation gap is obvious. Captain's ride; the sim guy overloads him, Cap'n commands a step down. The FO acknowledges but his left hand is madly trying to reprogram the FMS. The Sim captain soon overwhelms even that.

When it's the FO's ride, the FO call for the cap'n to reprogram. He's over there thinking, "if I say something, the ride is over for this guy..." so he attempts slowly to reprogram.

AA needs a two track approach to their academy- one for the guys who came to the company before age 35, and the other for the guys who came after. Of course, there may not be an AA in a few months.....

 

[Sac Arrow]

I agree relying on the autopilot to do your maneuvering for you breaks down basic skills over time but on the other hand I see no value in hand flying straight and level for hours at a time either.

 

[CMTowner]

I only have used a single axis autopilot and it was nice to have to help hold heading during turbulence, otherwise I rarely used it. My Cherokee 140 doesn't have one, but I enjoy hand flying the airplane anyway, but that is mainly on short flights. I could see using it on longer x-country if I had one to use.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, try using a 30 year old Century that the average (cheapskate) GA owner has. The 172 I rented in CA last year the AP would make a hard left every 20 minutes and that was on a 8 year old plane with a KAP unit in a busy training rental fleet that charges top dollar.

Pretty much what Henning said. The old Century IIIs are pretty well junk. The newer S-Tecs and other models of AP out there are worlds better, but they cost enough that most of us just stick with the quirky nature of the Century IIIs.

A new AP is at the bottom of the list of avionics upgrades for the 310. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but it'll happen after it gets the WX-500 installed, 430W in the #2 slot, and triple Aspen with SVT. Oh, and don't forget the TCAS.

In other words, it only probably won't happen.

 

[Captain]

I'd take TCAS well above just about any other system. I've told our Chief Pilot and DO that I'd rather fly a plane without seatbelts than a plane without TCAS.

Looking back on my entire career of flying seatbelts have never saved my ass while TCAS has on more than one occasion. To me that speaks volumes.

 

[L.Adamson]

I send this to all of my students. It's an excellent clip.

Problem is, it's a clip that's 15 years old. This American Airlines presentation was in 1997, just two years after an American Airline's 757 flew into rising terrain (CFIT) in Columbia, South America.

I often see flight instructors, attempt to just replace the letters FMC in the video with GPS.......when communicating with their students about this video. Fact is, "modern day" GPS would have easily SAVED this flight. These pilots had an FMS that did not show the big picture of exactly where they were for hundreds of miles around. Their ground proximity warning system only gave them 12 seconds warning, where even today's "handheld" can give you warning for hundreds of miles in advance.

If instructors want to use the video for some examples of auto pilots and auto throttles, then fine. But don't use this video as an excuse to convince a student that the GPS should stay home once and a while. That's total nonsense!

In today's world of modern navigation systems and databases that are easily incorporated into small units, "Children of the magenta line" no longer applies. These day's, that same magenta line, offers a lot more critical information at a "mere" glance. This ranges from exact course, to in flight weather, to exact airspace boundaries........not to mention synthetic vision should the need really arise.

As I often say.............if you get an instructor that says to throw the GPS in the back seat, with a smirk on their face, then throw them out!

L.Adamson

 

[L.Adamson]

Pretty much what Henning said. The old Century IIIs are pretty well junk. The newer S-Tecs and other models of AP out there are worlds better, but they cost enough that most of us just stick with the quirky nature of the Century IIIs.

Of course, in our world of RVs ( and other experimental class)...........when we're not doing overhead breaks into crowded airports........we have the advantage of high tech solid state auto-pilots that don't cost an arm and a leg. These units work extreemly well! Do we use them? Yes, quite often.

In my case, half the fun is watching an A/P follow the magenta line, including course changes...........because I installed the mechanics and electronics, and adjusted correctly. It's not uncommon to see many experimentals, that have a two axis A/P tied to a large screen moving map GPS.

As to hand flying, we do a lot of that too. Afterall, these planes handle like little "flighters"...

L.Adamson

 

[Ted]

I'd take TCAS well above just about any other system. I've told our Chief Pilot and DO that I'd rather fly a plane without seatbelts than a plane without TCAS.

Looking back on my entire career of flying seatbelts have never saved my ass while TCAS has on more than one occasion. To me that speaks volumes.

Yeah, the TCAS is up on the list. Of course, it's also expensive.

As I often say.............if you get an instructor that says to throw the GPS in the back seat, with a smirk on their face, then throw them out!

Yep. Then when you have a complete electrical failure, you'll have no practice with dead reckoning your way home.

Of course, in our world of RVs ( and other experimental class)...........when we're not doing overhead breaks into crowded airports........we have the advantage of high tech solid state auto-pilots that don't cost an arm and a leg. These units work extreemly well! Do we use them? Yes, quite often.

It should also be noted that any other modern airplane has a significantly better autopilot. This is part of having a 40-year-old airplane - it typically has some 40-year-old components in it.

The nice part about the Century III is that it's a pretty inexpensive autopilot to keep operational. However, I don't intend on spending any money on the one in the 310. We'll just keep flying it until it's no longer usable, and then we'll do an upgrade of some sort. Since it works better than any other Century III I've come across, that will (hopefully) be a while.

 

[L.Adamson]

Yep. Then when you have a complete electrical failure, you'll have no practice with dead reckoning your way home.

Not exactly....

Both of my GPSs have battery backup. If those eight to eleven satellites have a mass failure because some foreign country just nuked them all.........then I'll fall back to my charts, which I also follow along with, anyway.

 

[Ted]

Both of my GPSs have battery backup. If those eight to eleven satellites have a mass failure because some foreign country just nuked them all.........then I'll fall back to my charts, which I also follow along with, anyway.

Which doesn't apply to most students flying along in a 172 given the standard equipment.

I've seen too many people panic when the GPS turns off because they don't know how to function without it. Practice flight without it is important, even if you don't intend to be doing that. This is why we practice OEI in twins and engine outs in singles, even though we don't plan on engines failing.

 

[Clark1961]

Which doesn't apply to most students flying along in a 172 given the standard equipment.

I've seen too many people panic when the GPS turns off because they don't know how to function without it. Practice flight without it is important, even if you don't intend to be doing that. This is why we practice OEI in twins and engine outs in singles, even though we don't plan on engines failing.

Hmmm, find a road and follow it and eventually you'll find a town and an airport. Not that tough for anyone with a functioning brain cell. It works even out here in the west. Just gotta carry plenty of gas...

 

[wabower]

Two observations:

Having been involved in flying and teaching G-V sim at the time the new field-elevation procedures were introduced, I can attest that they were not willingly accepted by a high percentage of pilots. Their opinon (usually) changed after they worked through the options and found that the method being taught was the best way to do it, although some still grumbled.

Van Vanderburg's "magenta" presentation after Cali (we used it at Simuflite too) was about much more than FMS, but based on the company's admission that it had mistakenly trained crews to be systems managers rather than captains and pilots.

Mostly, I agree with you. Except the way some auto pilots work, you have to dial in dirt or else you will not break out at minimums without blast past the MAP. The G-V's I fly on are like this for, I believe, RNAV approaches. When we are using VNAV guidance, the autopilot will start to level off 50' prior to the MDA. By dialing in field elevation, the airplane will continue on the glidepath. The PF/PM have the responsibility of initiating the missed approach if required.

And we do it on a visual approach to avoid the altitude alerter. Technique only, though. Some folks just set TPA or missed approach altitude.

 

[Ghery]

What's an autopilot?

Not sure. Two of the planes in the club have them, but the are both placarded "inop". Never did play with the one in the Arrow when it was supposed to work and the one in the 182 couldn't track a VOR with hunting back and forth when it "worked". We really ought to remove them and get some useful load back.