AP Use

Single axis KAP140 here. I use it when on course in NAV mode. HDG mode did help me dodge clouds yesterday.

I overheard my wife say she prefers my hand flying, that it feels smoother. I smiled inside, but I know she's talking about the hunting it does to lock onto the magenta.

I turn it off in turbulence; don't like to ride, I prefer to be a pilot.

To the OP: why not encourage those hand flyers to hand fly the visual?
 
Hmmm, find a road and follow it and eventually you'll find a town and an airport. Not that tough for anyone with a functioning brain cell. It works even out here in the west. Just gotta carry plenty of gas...

It's amazing how much common sense isn't common to many people until they've had the opportunity to practice it. It's much more obvious to those of us who've done it. Simply the presence of a failure can be disorienting to people, and recovery from that failure becomes significantly easier to those who've had the opportunity to practice it in training. It's fairly obvious what to do if an engine fails, too. Doesn't mean you don't benefit from practicing it.

Adamson may happily bow down to worship the GPS. Having two with battery backups is nice. I don't fly a single plane with battery backups on the GPS (unless there's a handheld in it), and that seems to be the norm for most of the GA fleet I've seen. A complete electrical failure can happen on these planes (it's happened to me before). It is rare, but so are most failures. We prepare for many potential problems that typically don't happen.

If I have a student who's not interested in practicing failures, then that person can find another instructor. That student will also receive instruction on all the beneficial tools the GPS has to offer - terrain awareness, etc. I use them quite a bit as an aid to safety.
 
Two observations:

Having been involved in flying and teaching G-V sim at the time the new field-elevation procedures were introduced, I can attest that they were not willingly accepted by a high percentage of pilots. Their opinon (usually) changed after they worked through the options and found that the method being taught was the best way to do it, although some still grumbled.

Van Vanderburg's "magenta" presentation after Cali (we used it at Simuflite too) was about much more than FMS, but based on the company's admission that it had mistakenly trained crews to be systems managers rather than captains and pilots.

Concur on both points. Sitting in the sim watching new to Gulfstream pilot learn this method is entertaining at best when they have the need to argue with the instructor when told to dial in Field Elevation. It usually ends with the instructor letting them do it their way and seeing that it is truly the best way to operate this particular aircraft.

And from having a mostly observers seat (I sit jump in our airplanes) FSI teaches systems management mostly, but lucky for us we still have some old head pilots, as well as FEs, that believe in operating the aircraft, not just hanging on while the airplane takes you for a ride. Not sure how much longer we can hang on, though. Mentality these days is the airplane is far smarter than the operator.
 
It's amazing how much common sense isn't common to many people until they've had the opportunity to practice it. It's much more obvious to those of us who've done it. Simply the presence of a failure can be disorienting to people, and recovery from that failure becomes significantly easier to those who've had the opportunity to practice it in training. It's fairly obvious what to do if an engine fails, too. Doesn't mean you don't benefit from practicing it.

Agree. Good training is worth every penny. Continuing training is also a good thing. I probably don't do enough of it.
 
I have the original equipment Cessna 300A autopilot. It evens works, unlike many of them! This is a single axis unit that can fly a heading or track Nav assuming the heading bug is set correctly for the nav intercept. It does not fly well in turbulence. Everything needs to be trimmed out before switching it on.

I use it primarily in cruise. It's nice to attend to other tasks, relax a bit, and enjoy the view knowing that the heading won't wander. Someday my 35 year old autopilot will die and I'll decide if I want to try and repair it, replace it, or just placard it inop like my similar vintage ADF.
 
Looking back on my entire career of flying seatbelts have never saved my ass while TCAS has on more than one occasion.

Seat belts have certainly saved mine.

I'm one of those people that hand flies the departure, as a rule. I usually hand-fly until about FL270 or so, before engaging the autopilot. Above that altitude, we're required to use automated altitude control as part of our RVSM certification.

We can't engage the autopilot until flaps are up in any case, which for us normally takes place between 4,000' and 5,500 above the departure field elevation. In some locations such as Kabul where we keep our speed slow to reduce turn radius and climb rate high during the departure, we may be close to 18,000' before we're working on raising the flaps after takeoff. It depends on the circumstances.

I'm also one of those guys that often uses the autopilot during the descent, arrival, and landing. Sometimes I hand fly, sometimes I don't.

The autopilot is a tool to be used, like anything else in the cockpit, and it allows to expand my circle of awareness at times when workload is high. You might say it's like adding a little extra mental RAM at times when my processor is working hard.

Certain locations where I go, the approach signal often gets unstable at certain points in the approach. This is known and part of the environment (along with frequency jamming, laser and other attacks during final, etc). Using the autopilot can greatly enhance safety, but there are times when the airplane may start to get unstable along with the signal, and disconnecting the autopilot to hand fly is the better choice. Sometimes I perform autolands, and sometimes, most of the time, I land by hand. During exceptionally low visibility conditions, I use two or more autopilots during the approach, and have no qualms about it.

I consider many visual approach days to be practice days for the bad weather; I divide my time between concentrating on maintaining proficiency with the automation and avionics, and doing hand flying techniques.

Our airplane has no "feel" to it; that is, one doesn't really feel what the airplane is doing, the same as one might do with a light piston airplane or light turbojet. Feel computers are built in to give us an artificial sense of what's going on, as there's no control feedback, but hand flying is still following the instruments.

When I do climbs or descents on autopilot, I prefer to use the manual pitch wheels, just like I did in a King Air or Piaggio. I feel I have more direct control over what I'm doing, and when I do things like drop the gear out of 22,000' to cool it before going into some of the places we go, it allows me to keep up with the speed decay by pitching down faster to maintain a given airspeed, rather than playing catch up by commanding an airspeed or descent rate. This is a compromise between hand-flying and using automation; one isn't doing anything more than flying the airplane, just using different controls that one's hand on the column to make it happen.

Go ahead and hand fly every descent and landing if you wish; it may be incorrect to condemn others who do differently than you, however; different isn't necessarily wrong.
 
I'd take TCAS well above just about any other system. I've told our Chief Pilot and DO that I'd rather fly a plane without seatbelts than a plane without TCAS.

Looking back on my entire career of flying seatbelts have never saved my ass while TCAS has on more than one occasion. To me that speaks volumes.

I've never flown with TCAS except briefly in the JetStream, never barked. Outside of that none and I'm not dead. Harness saved me 3 times, (going over the nose and land on your back with no seat belt is not conducive to good health, especially in an open cockpit AgCat.
 
I'm not sure he mentioned a "wreck." Does on need to have a wreck in order for a seatbelt to save one's bacon?
 
At the risk of being called a cirrus pilot I use the auto pilot from traffic patern exit to entry on x-c flights.

But I hardly use it when flying around for the hell of it so I still have my stick and rudder skills such as they may be
 
Every one. Mechanical failures in Ag work they don't care, just matter of fact. Winds hear is the one where I went to Ft Worth for a meeting you insist didn't happen...:rofl::rofl::rofl:

It's odd. I've searched the databases and yet not one of these "wrecks" ever show up.

As far as
Mechanical failures in Ag work they don't care, just matter of fact.

you are very wrong. The same forms are filled out, and the same data collected (pilot, age, certificates, hours, qualifications, etc).

But feel free to correct me. Just PM me the date and N number and I'll cross reference it from that since for some strange reason your name never comes up in any accident database.

Winds hear is the one where I went to Ft Worth for a meeting you insist didn't happen...:rofl::rofl::rofl:

The problem with that "story" is anyone that is familiar with FAA procedures can see there is no truth whatsoever to it. You depend upon the reader not to know better, same as when you tried to tell the barge explosion story on the purple board and got busted.


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus.
 
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you are very wrong. The same forms are filled out, and the same data collected (pilot, age, certificates, hours, qualifications, etc).

Sometimes.

I was on a hillside a few years ago, following a forced landing in a turbine M18T during a very active wildfire (engine failed during a drop on the fire). I called the FSDO responsible for that area, and the inspector with whom I spoke indicated he had no interest, nor the mainpower, nor the budget, to come have a look. He told me that if we trailered the airplane out, to drive it by the FSDO if we had time, and he'd have a look. Otherwise, nothing doing.

Much of the time in ag work, very little, if any investigation is done following an incident, or even a fatality for that matter. Been there.

I am curious about the open cockpit AgCat, however. I've never seen one in ag work that's open cockpit. I've seen a few that are modified for tourist work with seats where the hopper was, and the greenhouse removed, but not in ag work. There are really good reasons to keep the greenhouse when doing ag.
 
Sometimes.

I was on a hillside a few years ago, following a forced landing in a turbine M18T during a very active wildfire (engine failed during a drop on the fire). I called the FSDO responsible for that area, and the inspector with whom I spoke indicated he had no interest, nor the mainpower, nor the budget, to come have a look. He told me that if we trailered the airplane out, to drive it by the FSDO if we had time, and he'd have a look. Otherwise, nothing doing.

So did he take your make and model, N number, pilot information, as well as details of the wreck? If not he is in serious jeopardy of his career.

Much of the time in ag work, very little, if any investigation is done following an incident, or even a fatality for that matter. Been there.

Sorry, not buying that either.

If the accident meets NTSB 830 criteria, a report is generated. How the investigation is done is up to the office tasked with the investigation, but the required data is collected and the required forms are submitted. In the event of a fatality there will be an investigation, that's definately not optional.

Been there, done that. I don't believe there is a FSDO manager willing to trash his career and retirement just to ignore a crash or NTSB 830 required filing.

From NTSB 830

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:7.1.4.1.12&idno=49

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.
I do believe there are accidents that never get reported, that's a fact.

In the Ag world reputable operators do the report as they have too much riding on their certificate to risk losing it and subsequent enforcement action.
 
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I am curious about the open cockpit AgCat, however. I've never seen one in ag work that's open cockpit. I've seen a few that are modified for tourist work with seats where the hopper was, and the greenhouse removed, but not in ag work. There are really good reasons to keep the greenhouse when doing ag.

Same here. I've never seen an open cockpit AgCat either, and I grew up around ag operations. :dunno:
 
So did he take your make and model, N number, pilot information, as well as details of the wreck? If not he is in serious jeopardy of his career.

No, he's not. It was a government incident, handled by an investigative team from the office of aircraft services.

I never said there was a wreck.

The inspector did not get my details, nor was he particularly interested. His direction to me: "If you trailer it by, stop in if you feel like it and we'll come out and have a look, otherwise, have a nice day."

I've never seen an open cockpit AgCat either, and I grew up around ag operations.

I grew up flying ag.

Sorry, not buying that either.

Your purchase isn't required for validation, as you weren't there. I very much was, however. The matter was classified in the government report as an "incident with potential." I spent two weeks on the mountainside working to make the airplane ready to fly. A new engine and propeller was hung, longerons welded, I installed a new tail assembly and the lower portion of the rudder fairing, and the airplane was moved off the mountainside to a farm access road. Cedar post fencing for about half a mile was cut down with a chain saw, and the aircraft flown to a repair station in Idaho. I picked i tup there a month later and continued operating it on fires thereafter.

The only validation I required was the approval of the regional aviation maintenance safety officer, and he wasn't FAA.

You won't find that incident anywhere in my record, or outside of the OAS official report.. No other validation necessary, thanks.

In the Ag world reputable operators do the report as they have too much riding on their certificate to risk losing it and subsequent enforcement action.

As long as you're comfortable believing that, it's all that matters. I suspect you haven't seen as much of the industry as you think, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
 
It's odd. I've searched the databases and yet not one of these "wrecks" ever show up.


you are very wrong. The same forms are filled out, and the same data collected (pilot, age, certificates, hours, qualifications, etc).
.

:rofl::rofl::rofl: You seem to have a lot of problems with your referencing. I can't help you with the first, however if you look up the definition of "matter of fact", you just gave it.:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl: You seem to have a lot of problems with your referencing. I can't help you with the first, however if you look up the definition of "matter of fact", you just gave it.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Thanks for confirming what many readers have figured out about you.

Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus.

Historic Pearl Street
 
Pretty much what Henning said. The old Century IIIs are pretty well junk. The newer S-Tecs and other models of AP out there are worlds better, but they cost enough that most of us just stick with the quirky nature of the Century IIIs.

Just a comment on the IIIs, with competent maintenance the IIIs can be an excellent autopilot. Unfortunately, that maintenance is frequently quite expensive. It doesn't help that certain parts are no longer manufactured and it is only a matter of time until the IIIs cannot be maintained.

Before the Aspen was installed in the Frankenkota, the IIIc would fly an ILS within half a dot. After the Aspen, it had to visit the specialists at autopilot Central to get back to that performance. It is good in turbulence. When the servos can't be repaired (no more parts made), it will be junk.

I would buy another Century autopilot. I'd want plenty of spares but I'd buy another...
 
Lease do not take this as getting in the middle of a family squabble, but it seems that R&W believes that every govt official does their job to the best of their ability, all the time. Living and working in the nations capital tells me that ain't so.
 
Lease do not take this as getting in the middle of a family squabble, but it seems that R&W believes that every govt official does their job to the best of their ability, all the time. Living and working in the nations capital tells me that ain't so.

Never had I made such a statement.

There are flaws in the system, but I'm attempting to point out reality versus internet "myths".

I'm very familiar in how the system works in regards to accident investigation, NTSB 830 and the FAA's role. The claim that the FAA was notified of an accident involving substantial damage, or even a fatality and they refused to investigate is pure fantasy. With the different events that happen on an accident investigation it would be next to impossible to ignore an accident and get away with it.

Granted, some accidents happen (non fatal) that never get reported. But if a report (phone call) is generated it goes through a regional center, assigned a report number and the FAA and NTSB are notified. The reports are quite extensive that must be filled out that include data such as location, weather, airman (name, certificate, hours, etc) aircraft type, narrative plus other information.

Here is the FAA guidance on performing an accident investigation .

Here is the FAA Form 8020-9.

Here is FAA 8020.11C .
 
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Sooooo..... how 'bout the use of the autopilot? Handy contraption, if I do say so myself!
 
I don't care if a guy uses the AP on a visual approach. It just drives me crazy because it's harder to do it that way. I'm a firm believer in using the ships equipment to make your life easier.

Why would you go out of your way to do something in a harder way? What possible benefit is there to making hundreds of minute little corrections to heading and vertical speed to fly a visual approach?

And the issue of rolling the altitude preselecter to below ground just smacks of 'poor form'.

I'm not saying I don't allow it or get angry or even worked up. I just don't get it and it's a very common thing I see lots of folks do. Weird I'd say.
 
I know, that seems like a contradiction and I suppose it is. What I mean is 'I don't care. It's safe' fly how you like as long as it's legal and safe.

But there are lots of things in the world that are legal and safe but don't make sense. IMO this is one of them so it 'drives me crazy'.

That any clearer?
 
I'm not saying I don't allow it or get angry or even worked up. I just don't get it and it's a very common thing I see lots of folks do. Weird I'd say.
I see people doing this too and my theory is that they enjoy the challenge of playing around with the buttons to make the visual approach work out right. The people I'm talking about are perfectly capable of hand-flying. Me, I'm lazy and usually just hand-fly the visual if I'm not coupled to an approach.
 
I know, that seems like a contradiction and I suppose it is. What I mean is 'I don't care. It's safe' fly how you like as long as it's legal and safe.

But there are lots of things in the world that are legal and safe but don't make sense. IMO this is one of them so it 'drives me crazy'.

That any clearer?

Not really. For folks who have intimate knowledge of crazy it doesn't. Once you know it is crazy it is time to act...
 
I don't care if a guy uses the AP on a visual approach. It just drives me crazy because it's harder to do it that way. I'm a firm believer in using the ships equipment to make your life easier.

Because it's difficult for you doesn't mean it's difficult for others. Suppose others insist that you do it their way? You seem to be insisting that others do it your way. Is there a difference between using the autopilot during a visual approach, and using the autopilot when you can't see the runway?

Some might argue that it's a good time to improve one's autopilot technique, when there's the immediate visual feedback of the approach to the runway.

Why would you go out of your way to do something in a harder way? What possible benefit is there to making hundreds of minute little corrections to heading and vertical speed to fly a visual approach?

What makes it harder? Does one not make corrections when hand flying, all the way to the runway? Why does it bother you that others have their own acceptable methods of flying the approach?

And the issue of rolling the altitude preselecter to below ground just smacks of 'poor form'.

In your autopilot system that may be true. I gather you've got fairly low experience, and not a broad background with a lot of different aircraft and autoflight systems. You're basing your observations on your limited experience with the autopilot you fly, then?

The claim that the FAA was notified of an accident involving substantial damage, or even a fatality and they refused to investigate is pure fantasy.

Who made this claim?
 
I see what you're doing. I say 'fly like you want as long as its safe and legal' any you ask why I 'insist they fly my way'.

You take my words and make them mean something else in hopes of firing me up or something. Not gonna work. It's obvious what I said and also obvious what you said is opposite of that.

Nice touch throwing out the idea I 'must have low experience'...that should be sure to fire me up...but alas no. Too blatant to be taken seriously. If it were more subtle perhaps.

It's too bad Doug, I thought we were friends...
 
And the issue of rolling the altitude preselecter to below ground just smacks of 'poor form'.

In your autopilot system that may be true. I gather you've got fairly low experience, and not a broad background with a lot of different aircraft and autoflight systems. You're basing your observations on your limited experience with the autopilot you fly, then?

Could you enlighten us "inexperienced" pilots as to when and why it is OK to set your preselect to an altitude below the surface??? Based on my limited experience it is just careless and stupid.
 
I don't care if a guy uses the AP on a visual approach. It just drives me crazy because it's harder to do it that way. I'm a firm believer in using the ships equipment to make your life easier.

Why would you go out of your way to do something in a harder way? What possible benefit is there to making hundreds of minute little corrections to heading and vertical speed to fly a visual approach?

And the issue of rolling the altitude preselecter to below ground just smacks of 'poor form'.

I'm not saying I don't allow it or get angry or even worked up. I just don't get it and it's a very common thing I see lots of folks do. Weird I'd say.
I can see the appeal of the challenge. You have to stay further ahead of the airplane and be precise in your judgement. Don't knock it until you try it, just remember to click the thing off at 200'.
 
Whenever I see this thread title, I think it is about me. Guess not. It's about a bunch of other guys.
 

Oh. In that case, then, I was right.

Could you enlighten us "inexperienced" pilots as to when and why it is OK to set your preselect to an altitude below the surface??? Based on my limited experience it is just careless and stupid.

That would depend on how the system is set up.

The individuals doing that were flying GIV's and GV's. I don't fly that type and have no experience in the Gulfstream, so I can't speak to their reasoning. Several here who do have that experience have addressed the matter already, as well as the use of the technique by Flight Safety International, I believe.

Our SOP is to set the missed approach altitude upon glideslope intercept and glideslope capture on the flight director/autopilot. However, our system is dated and somewhat archaic; we have independent engage functions for each autopilot component, including separate switching to be engaged for back course operations (which don't even run the autopilot, but only the flight director). The way in which the airplane I'm presently operating is conducted is not the way in which one would conduct an autopilot approach in other kinds of airplanes.

We also use the altitude alerter differently depending on the type of procedure we're flying. On an ILS we simply set the missed approach altitude after we've captured the glideslope. On a constant-descent or step-down autopilot procedure, we set the alerter for each step down altitude/fix. Our radar altimeter and final alerter setting is MDA+50'. Conversely, setting field elevation in the alerter would provide (in our aircraft) a 900' warning when approaching that altitude, along with the tone. How the GIV or other aircraft using that technique is configured or operated, or the how the conduct of the autopilot use is managed, I can't say.

I do know that the methodology of operating various autopilots and autoflight systems varies according to the system in use; what is appropriate with one system is not appropriate with another. If one is set in one's beliefs such that one isn't willing to consider a widely accepted and taught and practiced practice, even one that's taught at internationally-recognized training centers, one may be basing one's observations on limited experience and insight. There's generally more than one way to skin a cat.

It's too bad Doug, I thought we were friends...

Oh, we are. Great friends. Lifelong friends. It's in that very spirit that I toyed with the idea of flying the visual approach this morning with automation, just to poke your ire in effigy, but in the end I lost heart and hand flew the approach anyway.
 
Whoda thunk autopilots would destroy more friendships than overhead breaks.
 
I see people doing this too and my theory is that they enjoy the challenge of playing around with the buttons to make the visual approach work out right. The people I'm talking about are perfectly capable of hand-flying. Me, I'm lazy and usually just hand-fly the visual if I'm not coupled to an approach.

That seems reasonable to me.
 
That would depend on how the system is set up.

The individuals doing that were flying GIV's and GV's. I don't fly that type and have no experience in the Gulfstream, so I can't speak to their reasoning. Several here who do have that experience have addressed the matter already, as well as the use of the technique by Flight Safety International, I believe.

Our SOP is to set the missed approach altitude upon glideslope intercept and glideslope capture on the flight director/autopilot. However, our system is dated and somewhat archaic; we have independent engage functions for each autopilot component, including separate switching to be engaged for back course operations (which don't even run the autopilot, but only the flight director). The way in which the airplane I'm presently operating is conducted is not the way in which one would conduct an autopilot approach in other kinds of airplanes.

We also use the altitude alerter differently depending on the type of procedure we're flying. On an ILS we simply set the missed approach altitude after we've captured the glideslope. On a constant-descent or step-down autopilot procedure, we set the alerter for each step down altitude/fix. Our radar altimeter and final alerter setting is MDA+50'. Conversely, setting field elevation in the alerter would provide (in our aircraft) a 900' warning when approaching that altitude, along with the tone. How the GIV or other aircraft using that technique is configured or operated, or the how the conduct of the autopilot use is managed, I can't say.

I do know that the methodology of operating various autopilots and autoflight systems varies according to the system in use; what is appropriate with one system is not appropriate with another. If one is set in one's beliefs such that one isn't willing to consider a widely accepted and taught and practiced practice, even one that's taught at internationally-recognized training centers, one may be basing one's observations on limited experience and insight. There's generally more than one way to skin a cat.

Nice story. Now address the question I posed: When is it OK or reasonable to set the preselect to an altitude below the surface?? I am quite familiar with the use of autopilots and the management of their systems, (DA-50,CE60,CA-212,DHC-6, L-382) And have been flying transport category aircraft since the early 80s, but have never heard of the practice. (You're up late aren't you? It's what? about 0136 local in Afghanistan)
 
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Just a comment on the IIIs, with competent maintenance the IIIs can be an excellent autopilot. Unfortunately, that maintenance is frequently quite expensive. It doesn't help that certain parts are no longer manufactured and it is only a matter of time until the IIIs cannot be maintained.

Before the Aspen was installed in the Frankenkota, the IIIc would fly an ILS within half a dot. After the Aspen, it had to visit the specialists at autopilot Central to get back to that performance. It is good in turbulence. When the servos can't be repaired (no more parts made), it will be junk.

I would buy another Century autopilot. I'd want plenty of spares but I'd buy another...

The IIIs can be excellent autopilots, but you run into the same problem as many other old items that can still be excellent - they are old, they break, and few people know how to work on them anymore. The problem I find is that, even Autopilots Central can't always fix them correctly. I've had good luck with Griffin Avionics in Hyannis, but they, too, aren't perfect.

The IIICs have a tendency to do runaway trim at random. The problem is difficult to duplicate, and happens when it feels like it. You may go 50 hours without a problem, and then it won't stop doing it for 10 hours. The owners don't want to get it fixed, because the autopilot shops will claim they fixed it and then it will do it again. This happens repeatedly. It's much like the game with getting transponders repaired - you may be lucky, or you may not.
 
The IIICs have a tendency to do runaway trim at random. The problem is difficult to duplicate, and happens when it feels like it. You may go 50 hours without a problem, and then it won't stop doing it for 10 hours. The owners don't want to get it fixed, because the autopilot shops will claim they fixed it and then it will do it again. This happens repeatedly. It's much like the game with getting transponders repaired - you may be lucky, or you may not.

Interesting. Haven't seen (or heard of) a runaway trim on the IIIc. Analogue systems can be difficult, that's for sure.

Agree that the guys in Tulsa aren't perfect but at least they test fly it after working on it. More shops need to do that.
 
The individuals doing that were flying GIV's and GV's. I don't fly that type and have no experience in the Gulfstream, so I can't speak to their reasoning. Several here who do have that experience have addressed the matter already, as well as the use of the technique by Flight Safety International, I believe.
I've been to FSI for training in 4 different types and I was never taught to set the altitude alerter below the surface. I haven't flown a Gulfstream but my last sim partner at recurrent also flew a GV and he didn't try to set it down there either.
 
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