Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skill?

Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

JoseCuervo said:
Why do you think knowledge and education have to be mutually exclusive?

Given a educated person WITH knowledge, I would always choose that candidate over one WITHOUT education.
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If I have two people in front of me with equivalent knowledge, one highly educated, one having learned it on his/her own, I'll take the self-learner. The skill of self-education is a considerable one.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

N918KT said:
I always had the assumption that if you do not go to college or go to a trade (vocational) school to get an college education or a trade skill (like a car mechanic for example) you would end up in minimum wage jobs like fast food or retail stores.

But I wonder if there is a decent paying job (like living wages instead of minimum wage) that does not require a college education or a trade skill?

Can't think of one off the top of my head.

Any ideas guys?
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Anything in chemical plants/industrial construction. Even the guys who push the brooms and fill the water coolers make pretty good money… Not as much as skilled labor but pretty good..
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

JoseCuervo said:
Why do you think knowledge and education have to be mutually exclusive?

Given a educated person WITH knowledge, I would always choose that candidate over one WITHOUT education.
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You don't give those without education a chance. You trash their resumes. You admitted that yourself in a previous post.

But back to your question: Knowledge and education don't have to be mutually exclusive, nor did I day (nor even imply) that they did. Frankly, I don't know how you got the impression that I felt that way.

It has been my experience, however, that some of the least competent people I have ever known (or hired) were also highly educated in their disciplines. I've hired people with degrees in IT who didn't know how to install a network card. I've also hired people with degrees in Spanish to do Web site translation, only to find that they couldn't write a single grammatically-correct sentence in that language.

College proves nothing, in my opinion, other than that the person had the discipline to sit through four years of boring lectures without becoming annoying enough be expelled from the college. That doesn't mean that a college graduate can't also be intelligent and competent. But neither does a college degree guarantee that a person is either.

Personally, I don't think my degrees were worth the time it took for me to earn them. I would be really annoyed if in addition to the wasted years, I'd also gone into debt to pay for college. But that's just my experience. Everyone has to make their own decisions.

-Rich
 
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

RJM62 said:
You don't give those without education a chance. You trash their resumes. You admitted that yourself in a previous post.

But back to your question: Knowledge and education don't have to be mutually exclusive, nor did I day (nor even imply) that they did. Frankly, I don't know how you got the impression that I felt that way.

It has been my experience, however, that some of the least competent people I have ever known (or hired) were also highly educated in their disciplines. I've hired people with degrees in IT who didn't know how to install a network card. I've hired people with degrees in Spanish to do Web site translation, only to find that they couldn't write a single grammatically-correct sentence in that language.

College proves nothing, in my opinion, other than that the person had the discipline to sit through four years of boring lectures without becoming annoying enough be expelled from the college. That doesn't mean that a college graduate can't also be intelligent and competent. But neither does a college degree guarantee that a person is either.

Personally, I don't think my degrees were worth the time it took for me to earn them. I would be really annoyed if in addition to the wasted years, I'd also gone into debt to pay for college. But that's just my experience. Everyone has to make their own decisions.

-Rich
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I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person who went to the trouble to learn Computer Science at the level of detail we were required at my University. I just don't see very many self taught people proving shortest path algorithms for fun. With that said, I'm amazed at what you can get away with not knowing and have a 4 year CS degree these days. I got in before corporations started making large donations to CS departments. We were actually taught computer science and not Visual Studio.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

N747JB said:
UPS is a great company, I think most of their managers start out loading trucks and or driving, but even the drivers make a pretty good living. It's pretty physically demanding, but I know several folks that are my age (49) started there in high school. :D
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That's who puts the beans on the table and 100ll in the Skyhawk for me. I started there at 19(33now) while going to college. Now have a degree that I will not use. I make enough to support my young family and own a share of an airplane, and hopefully retire by 51 and be able to afford to pursue a career in aviation.
 
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

tinerj said:
Except in most technical and scientific fields it is obsolete in 7 years.
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And why is that? Because the guys working in the field invented the new stuff. And the basic stuff I learned in college (about 40 years ago) hasn't changed and is as valid today as it was back then.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Ghery said:
And why is that? Because the guys working in the field invented the new stuff. And the basic stuff I learned in college (about 40 years ago) hasn't changed and is as valid today as it was back then.
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And it isn't true in the first place.

Several posters have assumed that "most technical fields" means IT and to some extent CS.

The university level physics you might have learned in the 50s still works. And the math (pure and applied) and the chemistry and the electrical engineering and the statics and so on.

Heck, the pedagogy has changed dramatically, but the physics in the Principia is clearly recognizable and much of it is useful. That's over 300 years old, well past 7.

Things start to get time sensitive in graduate school -- that's the point of having it. But not for primary university education.

There aren't any fields outside computer science and its relatives that turn themselves inside out in 7 years. Not even genomics and biomedicine, which change very quickly, are anywhere near that scale.

But I guess those aren't technical.
 
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

It took me 15 years working my way up in engineering to match the salary I made as a 19 year old working the kuwaiti oil fields after gulf war 1
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Cell tower climbers, start around 15 a hour with no experience, on the job training. Can make 30 plus a hour on the top end. The bad you work outside all the time and are gone from home a lot.


Mike
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Gerhardt said:
I have to disagree with you on that one. There are a LOT of companies (mine included) with incredibly competent people who have been in low-level positions for decades. Yet the lower-level supervisory positions, which pay exponentially more, are filled with wet-nosed kids fresh from college. As sad as it is, many employers won't even look at people, no matter how much experience they have or how well they perform, if they don't have a bachelors.

Education won't open any doors for you, but it certainly keeps some from being closed.
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Correct. There are plenty of job postings that list: "Degree from a top-tier school required". It's a way of culling the applicants & a slap on the back of the old-boy network. Who you know, not what you know.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

wsuffa said:
Correct. There are plenty of job postings that list: "Degree from a top-tier school required". It's a way of culling the applicants & a slap on the back of the old-boy network. Who you know, not what you know.
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I have NEVER seen a serious listing requiring a top tier school.

I've also never seen an objective definition of a top tier school.

So, let's not make up "facts," eh?
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

There are some police departments that do not require a degree to get hired. After a a few years and a promotion or two, good money to be made. Gotta research the department though.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

MAKG1 said:
I have NEVER seen a serious listing requiring a top tier school.

I've also never seen an objective definition of a top tier school.

So, let's not make up "facts," eh?
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Oh, I have. Particularly as it relates to an MBA.

And everyone seems to have their idea of 'top tier', but most consider Harvard, Penn State, Stanford, etc. in that category.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Corpsmaide said:
There are some police departments that do not require a degree to get hired. After a a few years and a promotion or two, good money to be made. Gotta research the department though.
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When they don't require a specific degree, they often have a points-system that allocates X points for college credits in criminal justice, X points for military service, X points for prior police experience etc. If they are desireable agencies, the kids who are interested in competing for the positions will work hard to be competitive by gathering credits at the community college, working clerical gigs in some other agency etc. The police jobs that are truly non-competitive are either village constable in some place at the edge of the world or poorly funded distressed rust-belt towns where the good money comes with a good amount of risk.

With few exceptions, you still need to make it through some form of academy and certification exams, even if it is a year in in some agencies. If someone has enough learning ability to make it through that, they could have also obtained an associates or bachelors.
 
wsuffa said:
Oh, I have. Particularly as it relates to an MBA.

And everyone seems to have their idea of 'top tier', but most consider Harvard, Penn State, Stanford, etc. in that category.
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Yep. They do it by limiting the campuses they recruit. Not gonna recruit at University of Phoenix.... Or even bottom level State University when you can get your positions filled in the Ivy League or other Top Ten Universities.
 
Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade ...

weilke said:
When they don't require a specific degree, they often have a points-system that allocates X points for college credits in criminal justice, X points for military service, X points for prior police experience etc. If they are desireable agencies, the kids who are interested in competing for the positions will work hard to be competitive by gathering credits at the community college, working clerical gigs in some other agency etc. The police jobs that are truly non-competitive are either village constable in some place at the edge of the world or poorly funded distressed rust-belt towns where the good money comes with a good amount of risk.

With few exceptions, you still need to make it through some form of academy and certification exams, even if it is a year in in some agencies. If someone has enough learning ability to make it through that, they could have also obtained an associates or bachelors.
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Why get a Bachelors when some agencies will hire you at 19 and pay > 50k base salary which can easily double with OT and off duty details.
 
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

wickedsprint said:
Why get a Bachelors when some agencies will hire you at 19 and pay > 50k base salary which can easily double with OT and off duty details.
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I am not suggesting people should get a college degree instead of going into police work. I am suggesting that someone who doesn't have enough brains to get at least a community college degree won't hack it in a police career either. For the kids I know who headed into police work, the alternative was a trade or college, not stacking shelves at Walmart.

There are a few jobs that require no brains but you make good money just based on the fact that they are awful work and nobody else wants to do them. Cleaning porta-pottys, septic tanks and grease-traps for example.

For everything else, you need at least the ability to click through powerpoints and retain enough information to get 80% on the test that follows.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade ...

wickedsprint said:
Why get a Bachelors when some agencies will hire you at 19 and pay > 50k base salary which can easily double with OT and off duty details.
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When I was younger bunch of the adults said to slug it out and get on the Suffolk County police force. Be retiring now with 20 in, good money and stupid benefits. No idea what the tuition reimbursement is nowadays but I'm sure it is generous. Join a rich county police force, go to night school for free and retire in your forties with whatever degree(s) you want earned part time for free. Course that ride has to end the amount of money states like NY have promised in bennies to public workers cannot be raised by the state.
 
ClimbnSink said:
When I was younger bunch of the adults said to slug it out and get on the Suffolk County police force. Be retiring now with 20 in, good money and stupid benefits. No idea what the tuition reimbursement is nowadays but I'm sure it is generous. Join a rich county police force, go to night school for free and retire in your forties with whatever degree(s) you want earned part time for free. Course that ride has to end the amount of money states like NY have promised in bennies to public workers cannot be raised by the state.
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IRS tax deductible tuition reimbursement is capped at 5250 per year so companies generally don't go beyond that. There are limited exceptions to that rule.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade ...

ClimbnSink said:
When I was younger bunch of the adults said to slug it out and get on the Suffolk County police force. Be retiring now with 20 in, good money and stupid benefits.
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A x-th degree cousin of mine made it into Suffolk PD in the early 90s. 3 years in he was making silly money. At this point he has to decide whether he wants to injure himself on the job to double-dip on the pension or whether he just retires to his second home in FL.
Getting into Suffolk or Nassau PD is like theft, except that it is legal.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

N918KT said:
I always had the assumption that if you do not go to college or go to a trade (vocational) school to get an college education or a trade skill (like a car mechanic for example) you would end up in minimum wage jobs like fast food or retail stores.

But I wonder if there is a decent paying job (like living wages instead of minimum wage) that does not require a college education or a trade skill?

Can't think of one off the top of my head.

Any ideas guys?
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My housekeeper cleans 2 houses a day at $100 each. She works 5 days a week and grosses $1,000/week which comes to about $25/hour.

My lawn guy does about 10 lawns a day at minimum $25 a yard so he makes $250/day or about $31/hours.

I have hired other people to come to my business to clean the windows once a month or strip and wax the floors. They all made much more than minimum wage.

A client drove up in a truck that had a "gutter cleaning" decal. I knocked a hundred dollars off his bill to clean my gutters. It took him about 2 hours. (Some gutters needed repair). I have rather difficult to reach gutters and they really clog up over time. I plan to have him back ever year before hurricane season.

There is plenty of work to do if you don't believe that a "job" is something owed to you and that a "living wage" is guaranteed whether you earn it or not.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

The police work thing is a tricky subject. My agency does not require a college education to be hired. There is a list of possible ways to meet the eligibility requirements. 60 hours of college is one way. Four years of military service is another. However working customer service for two years also allows you to meet the criteria. Lot's of people work at the mall in high school and find themselves eligible.

However meeting the eligibility standards to be hired and actually being hired are not the same. We recently hired 7 new people. All of them had a college degree, 5 of them were veterans, and 3 hold graduate degrees. So you may be eligible to be hired without college it isn't likely. Heck, I'm not even the only idiot that went to law school before deciding I'd rather arrest criminals than defend them.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

If you work hard you can move up in most fields. Malcolm Gladwell says it takes 10000h to be an expert at anything. Starting a business is rewarding, but very hard work.

If you are an extrovert, then sales would be the ticket. Companies will always need a sales force.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

MAKG1 said:
I have NEVER seen a serious listing requiring a top tier school.

I've also never seen an objective definition of a top tier school.

So, let's not make up "facts," eh?
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Those positions that require a top MBA are never listed anywhere, ever. They do exist, and are mostly with financial firms: investment banks, private equity, etc. You will occasionally see an article in the business press listing some amazing average starting salary for new MBAs. These are those sorts of positions. What they don't say in those articles is that the salary mentioned is for graduates of one of the top 10 or 12 schools only. You can find a list of them in Forbes or BusinessWeek. Better bring money, all of them will be $100,000 or more,

The average MBA from the average school is not worth getting, unless your employer asks you to and pays for it, or if you need it as a minimum requirement, such as if you're planning to become a CPA.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

WornOutShooter said:
The police work thing is a tricky subject. My agency does not require a college education to be hired. There is a list of possible ways to meet the eligibility requirements. 60 hours of college is one way. Four years of military service is another. However working customer service for two years also allows you to meet the criteria. Lot's of people work at the mall in high school and find themselves eligible.

However meeting the eligibility standards to be hired and actually being hired are not the same. We recently hired 7 new people. All of them had a college degree, 5 of them were veterans, and 3 hold graduate degrees. So you may be eligible to be hired without college it isn't likely. Heck, I'm not even the only idiot that went to law school before deciding I'd rather arrest criminals than defend them.
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And, there you have it....

Somebody has a heirarchy of who they interview and test to see if they want to spend money on a bunch of training. And, they want some assurance the person is smart enough to justify the investment.

I assure you, there is a "list" that the recruiter uses.

  1. Graduate Degree
  2. Bachelor's Degree
  3. Associates Degree
  4. 60 Hours of College
  5. 2 Years of Customer Service
  6. (Preference for military, move up one slot)

You might think that meeting the minimums is all you need, but, if I am looking at a stack of 100 applicants for 10 slots, I doubt I get too far down below the Associates/60 hours levels.

I can have anybody with a pulse sort the resumes in that order, and I can likely have good candidates hired that are worth the investment risk, as I know they can study/learn and remember.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

FormerHangie said:
Those positions that require a top MBA are never listed anywhere, ever. They do exist, and are mostly with financial firms: investment banks, private equity, etc. You will occasionally see an article in the business press listing some amazing average starting salary for new MBAs. These are those sorts of positions. What they don't say in those articles is that the salary mentioned is for graduates of one of the top 10 or 12 schools only. You can find a list of them in Forbes or BusinessWeek. Better bring money, all of them will be $100,000 or more,

The average MBA from the average school is not worth getting, unless your employer asks you to and pays for it, or if you need it as a minimum requirement, such as if you're planning to become a CPA.
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Exactly, not even that hard to find.

Goldman Sachs gives new MBA grads the opportunity to take on a lot of responsibility early on, says Sandra Hurse, global co-head of campus recruiting at Goldman. Campus recruits are viewed as "a pipeline of talent that we would tap for future leadership of the firm," she says.

What they're looking for: Goldman emphasizes working together to find the best solution for the problem at hand, so the firm is looking for people "who feel it is important to be part of a team," and have a strong record of excellence, Hurse says.

Getting hired: Goldman generally visits 15 to 20 elite schools in the United States for on-campus MBA recruiting. Earning a summer associate position is the best way into the full-time program.

The bank hired more than 200 summer associates globally this year. Right now, "the biggest area of growth is in private wealth management. There's really high demand for MBAs directly from campus," says Hurse.
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

JOhnH said:
My housekeeper cleans 2 houses a day at $100 each. She works 5 days a week and grosses $1,000/week which comes to about $25/hour.

My lawn guy does about 10 lawns a day at minimum $25 a yard so he makes $250/day or about $31/hours.

I have hired other people to come to my business to clean the windows once a month or strip and wax the floors. They all made much more than minimum wage.

A client drove up in a truck that had a "gutter cleaning" decal. I knocked a hundred dollars off his bill to clean my gutters. It took him about 2 hours. (Some gutters needed repair). I have rather difficult to reach gutters and they really clog up over time. I plan to have him back ever year before hurricane season.

There is plenty of work to do if you don't believe that a "job" is something owed to you and that a "living wage" is guaranteed whether you earn it or not.
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Ooh, you are in for a very nasty surprise if one of those guys injures himself while servicing your property, especially the gutter guys.

'Cause you've clearly never heard of workman's comp.

You're neglecting overhead. It's substantial when done correctly, and they are not "making" $31/hour when you do the math right.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

MAKG1 said:
Ooh, you are in for a very nasty surprise if one of those guys injures himself while servicing your property, especially the gutter guys.

'Cause you've clearly never heard of workman's comp.

You're neglecting overhead. It's substantial when done correctly, and they are not "making" $31/hour when you do the math right.
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You accurately point out one of the reasons many small businesses fail. Ignorance or non-compliance with the law. Everyone that works for me gets legally paid. Even if it is barter. My payroll company pays state and federal UI and WC (unless they have their own WC policy). If they make more than $600 they get a 1099. If they don't pay SS, that is their problem.

You are also correct that I ignored their overhead. The lawn guy has expensive equipment. They pay transportation expenses. They pay all their own SS. But if they work just a little more they can cover that.
 
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Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Arborist tree trimmer/climber. Employee drones don't make much per hour but if you get good and develop your own client base it's a decent living. It's fun but dangerous. Must be brave but careful!
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

FormerHangie said:
Those positions that require a top MBA are never listed anywhere, ever. They do exist, and are mostly with financial firms: investment banks, private equity, etc. You will occasionally see an article in the business press listing some amazing average starting salary for new MBAs. These are those sorts of positions. What they don't say in those articles is that the salary mentioned is for graduates of one of the top 10 or 12 schools only. You can find a list of them in Forbes or BusinessWeek. Better bring money, all of them will be $100,000 or more,

The average MBA from the average school is not worth getting, unless your employer asks you to and pays for it, or if you need it as a minimum requirement, such as if you're planning to become a CPA.
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Agree, but would add that there are some positions that are advertised with that requirement. I am staring at a posted job opportunity with a corporation (private equity funded) that lists....

....
7. MBA from top tier school REQUIRED
....
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

wsuffa said:
Agree, but would add that there are some positions that are advertised with that requirement. I am staring at a posted job opportunity with a corporation (private equity funded) that lists....

....
7. MBA from top tier school REQUIRED
....
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The best jobs are the ones you have before it's even posted if ever. Build your career and requirements on some list become irrelevant.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

jesse said:
The best jobs are the ones you have before it's even posted if ever. Build your career and requirements on some list become irrelevant.
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Oh, no disagreement on that at all. That's my mantra.

But it's also important to maintain a level of market intelligence, if for no reason other than to know what the competition is doing & the level of demand in your career area.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

Many of the really good jobs are by recruitment at the better colleges - and university's. That's why it's so important to go on to higher education and do well.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Many of the really good jobs are by recruitment at the better colleges - and university's. That's why it's so important to go on to higher education and do well.
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This is not true in my experience. I still support the kids going to school and doing well but still...
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

ChrisK said:
This is not true in my experience. I still support the kids going to school and doing well but still...
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If you aren't at an ivy you won't see it.
 
Re: Any decent pay job or career that does not require a college degree or trade skil

How did we get from a better paying job for someone who is in retail to the market for top-tier MBAs ?
 
wsuffa said:
Oh, I have. Particularly as it relates to an MBA.



And everyone seems to have their idea of 'top tier', but most consider Harvard, Penn State, Stanford, etc. in that category.
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That probably has a lot to do with how in-bred most Corporate Boards and CxOs are. The Harvard clique (cult?) is particularly strong.

Sticking with people in the in-crowd on the golf course leads to bigger and better deals... for them. M&A negotiations, especially so.

They convince themselves it's a good deal over cocktails, get paid millions, destroy the cultures of at least one if the companies if not both, and they're long gone on the golden parachute before the outcome of their poor leadership is truly known.

Most of the time, anyway.
 
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