Another plane purchase question

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heybuddy690

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heybuddy
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I will be finishing up my PPL in the next couple months in a 172. I have been considering buying a plane to build some experience hrs and use for IFR training. I have my eye on a Beech Musketeer (180hp, 430wass, low time) for this purpose. I am a bigger guy so the roomy cabin is attractive. I know these birds are not fast but that will come in the next plane after experience is gained. A big question is this plane does not have an auto pilot. Is an auto pilot needed/recommended for IFR training? Also, any input on the Musketeer would be appreciated.
 
No, an autopilot isnt need for IFR training. Its debatable if its desirable or not. Most agree that an autopilot is very desirable for actual IMC, IFR.
 
I wouldn't be without my A/P in my Mooney for long IFR cross countries but I'm sure there are some here that would argue. For me it gets fatiguing flying solely by hand in hard IFR for loner trips. For training only, you can probably get by without it as i did since the 172's A/P i trained in wasn't very reliable.
 
Why not have an A/P for training,some DPEs like the aircraft to have a working a/p during the flight test. Just another tool you should understand for flying actual IMC.
 
If it were me.....I'd need an autopilot and a capable GPS....like either a 430W or 530W as a minimum.
 
In stressful IFR situations an autopilot could be a lifesaver. I would at least have a single-axis autopilot on board if it is going to be a regular flyer in IMC conditions. In VFR it is a luxury, but in IFR it is a major tool like a GPS.
 
If you're not coupled up at 1000ft AGL, you're doing it wrong.

Auto pilot is essential.

As are Bonanzas and Cirrus. This is PoA you know.
 
For IFR training, it's not necessary.

I got mine done in a Cherokee with no A/P. But, would I ever buy a plane without at least a single axis? Nope. It's too much of a pain to hand fly in IMC for long distances. Takes the fun out of it.

It's also nice to not be fighting drifting off course (or altitude) in turbulence while also trying to look down and brief an approach. You only have one set of eyes and having something else take care of heading/altitude for you while you read a chart or adjust the GPS is nice.
 
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rolivi said:
If you're not coupled up at 1000ft AGL, you're doing it wrong.

Auto pilot is essential.

As are Bonanzas and Cirrus. This is PoA you know.
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BS. If you can't fly without it you have no business in the clouds. An autopilot is just another tool to use to manage workload. To many use it as a crutch for poor flight and scan skills. Is it needed, no, but there are times it lessens the workload n high workload situations,. Then it is a useful tool.

Bob
 
rolivi said:
If you're not coupled up at 1000ft AGL, you're doing it wrong.

Auto pilot is essential.

As are Bonanzas and Cirrus. This is PoA you know.
Click to expand...

If it is essential for you to be coupled at 1000ft AGL, please make sure that you life insurance is paid up and that it does not have any exclusions for flying your own airplane.

For some of us, it is not essential. I have shot hundreds of IMC approaches in everything from King Air's on down. Never once I have let the autopilot fly the IMC approach. It is way too much fun to do it myself.
 
heybuddy690 said:
I will be finishing up my PPL in the next couple months in a 172. I have been considering buying a plane to build some experience hrs and use for IFR training. I have my eye on a Beech Musketeer (180hp, 430wass, low time) for this purpose. I am a bigger guy so the roomy cabin is attractive. I know these birds are not fast but that will come in the next plane after experience is gained. A big question is this plane does not have an auto pilot. Is an auto pilot needed/recommended for IFR training? Also, any input on the Musketeer would be appreciated.
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Is this a Model 23 with the 180hp Lycoming? Some of the Musketeers have a funky Continental engine that is best avoided. Generally, the Beech 23 series is heavy and slow, but roomy. Beech parts have always been breathtakingly expensive. Otherwise, it is a basic, reliable airplane without any terrible vices. I would go for an Archer which is faster and carries more.

Newly minted pilots with an eagerness to buy a plane are the seller's best friend. That is where they get rid of their junk. Get some assistance in the buying process from someone who knows the ropes.
 
heybuddy690 said:
I will be finishing up my PPL in the next couple months in a 172. I have been considering buying a plane to build some experience hrs and use for IFR training. I have my eye on a Beech Musketeer (180hp, 430wass, low time) for this purpose. I am a bigger guy so the roomy cabin is attractive. I know these birds are not fast but that will come in the next plane after experience is gained. A big question is this plane does not have an auto pilot. Is an auto pilot needed/recommended for IFR training? Also, any input on the Musketeer would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I have 2500hrs, maybe 25 with a working autopilot. The Musketeer is a good little plane, but the Continental IO-348 that some have is more expensive to support than the Lycoming O-360.
 
I did my IR training without auto pilot. That said I'm not cruising daily in heavy IMC in it either.
 
Reality is that you don't really fly a whole lot of time in IMC in a light single anyway because dangerous things live in clouds, like convection that can break the plane or ice. Neither of these is something it's particularly wise to expose yourself to, so typically IFR is used to get up and down through layers. Personally I will stay below any solid convective front, and I will weave my way between clouds if open enough. Unless I have onboard radar, I don't penetrate convection, and that's 95% of IMC here. I saw what happened to NOAA's T-28, that put me off being in the clouds. Nothing I fly could have survived.
 
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For single pilot IFR in the charter world a autopilot is required for a reason.

If you're going to be doing any real world single pilot IFR stuff I'd want a autopilot with altitude hold and GPSS at least.

Of course you need to BE ABLE to fly without it, but you're going to want a autopilot if you're going to actually be using your IFR ticket.




Kristin said:
If it is essential for you to be coupled at 1000ft AGL, please make sure that you life insurance is paid up and that it does not have any exclusions for flying your own airplane.

For some of us, it is not essential. I have shot hundreds of IMC approaches in everything from King Air's on down. Never once I have let the autopilot fly the IMC approach. It is way too much fun to do it myself.
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What did your ops spec / gom / check airman have to say about that?
 
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James331 said:
For single pilot IFR in the charter world a autopilot is required for a reason.

If you're going to be doing any real world single pilot IFR stuff I'd want a autopilot with altitude hold and GPSS at least.

Of course you need to BE ABLE to fly without it, but you're going to want a autopilot if you're going to actually be using your IFR ticket.
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The single pilot charter world typically flies much more capable equipment, and operates with a greater dispatch completion demand. I'm not 'anti autopilot' but I think SVT is a much more valuable, and reliable, place to put the same IMC money for the typical owner pilot. One of the big things about APs that lower them to the bottom half of things I want in a plane is that they have not proven reliable IME without a buttload of money flowing into them, and even those you have to watch hard. I stress more under autopilot than I do hand flying. I think I flew the last model plane in the airline biz that didn't have an AP, the Jetstream.
 
Needed? Definitely not. Recommended? It's nice to have an AP in IMC as it can reduce your workload. I did my IR in 172 without an autopilot and regularly flew in IMC without one. I actually just started flying with any sort of auto pilot in August. It's definitely good to have but also don't let your hand flying skills deteriorate. I typically like to hand fly every other approach and usually hand fly up to altitude then click on the AP.
 
James331 said:
For single pilot IFR in the charter world a autopilot is required for a reason.

If you're going to be doing any real world single pilot IFR stuff I'd want a autopilot with altitude hold and GPSS at least.

Of course you need to BE ABLE to fly without it, but you're going to want a autopilot if you're going to actually be using your IFR ticket.

What did your ops spec / gom / check airman have to say about that?
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Nothing in the regs or opspecs required making coupled approaches. I was the check airman and I was never sure when the FAA was going to tag me to take my six month ride with them, so there was the added benefit of staying sharp.

During the time I was flying night cargo around the Upper Midwest, A/P was not required and most planes didn't have them. GPS hadn't been invented yet so GPSS was out of the question.

I love a good autopilot to fly the boring parts. But by the time I hit the FAF, the A/P is off.
 
heybuddy690 said:
I will be finishing up my PPL in the next couple months in a 172. I have been considering buying a plane to build some experience hrs and use for IFR training. I have my eye on a Beech Musketeer (180hp, 430wass, low time) for this purpose. I am a bigger guy so the roomy cabin is attractive. I know these birds are not fast but that will come in the next plane after experience is gained. A big question is this plane does not have an auto pilot. Is an auto pilot needed/recommended for IFR training? Also, any input on the Musketeer would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Check out Beech Aero Club for answers to your Musketeer questions. http://www.beechaeroclub.org/forum.php.

I fly an 80 Sundowner with a wing leveler that I don't use. I love to hand fly everything. Out and back to Rapid City SD, Jupiter Florida and back without using the A/P. A nice tool to have for some relief en-route but not a must have.

You will like the roomy cabin and a easy access if you have the pilots side door. As others have noted, not the fastest plane but a very stable platform for IFR. Two doors are great and as I mentioned the comfort factor was important for me.
 
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There have been some accidents single pilot IFR where it started because the pilot was reaching for charts or oxygen bottle and got distracted and the plane got out of shape and he wasnt able to correct it. That is where an autopilot will really help. If you use an autopilot it can fail, and that is the downside. You have to keep an eye on the attitude of the plane using the gyro that the autopilot DOESN'T USE. If the autopilot uses the TC, then the pilot should monitor the AI etc.
 
I had the same idea and was looking for a Piper 140. I'm not that big a guy. Took a ride in an old bo and the rest is history. My point is I changed my tune a bit. I'm glad I got something a bit more than what I initially considered. I believe I fly more and I'm likely to continue to.

Nothing wrong with your initial thoughts, but keep an open mind and get a ride in a few different aircraft. Even seen some big guys in Moonys.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There have been some accidents single pilot IFR where it started because the pilot was reaching for charts or oxygen bottle and got distracted and the plane got out of shape and he wasnt able to correct it. That is where an autopilot will really help. If you use an autopilot it can fail, and that is the downside. You have to keep an eye on the attitude of the plane using the gyro that the autopilot DOESN'T USE. If the autopilot uses the TC, then the pilot should monitor the AI etc.
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Checkout in a bonanza includes demonstrating how the aircraft enters and tightens the turn in a graveyard spiral. Opened my eyes. I'm sold and I keep the STEC 30 airworthy.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There have been some accidents single pilot IFR where it started because the pilot was reaching for charts or oxygen bottle and got distracted and the plane got out of shape and he wasnt able to correct it. That is where an autopilot will really help. If you use an autopilot it can fail, and that is the downside. You have to keep an eye on the attitude of the plane using the gyro that the autopilot DOESN'T USE. If the autopilot uses the TC, then the pilot should monitor the AI etc.
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Yeah, very good point. Common misconception (or ignorance) is that an autopilot is there so you can read the paper and not be bothered by flying the plane.

The real point of the autopilot is to act like a co-pilot so that you can manage the resources effectively and ensure the safety of the flight without being overwhelmed by how busy things can get (especially during an approach).

Shooting an approach hand-flying the plane, in actual IMC, reading the chart, twisting knobs, talking on the radio, crying kids in the back seat, ****y wife, perhaps ice starting to build up on the wing, and ATC asking you to expedite because a 757 is behind you can be an extremely overwhelming (and mentally-taxing) experience. Just offloading one or both axes of flying the plane can reduce that mental stressload immensely. It makes a massive difference.
 
As stated, not necessary for training but nice to have.

My airplane has an autopilot with altitude hold and GPSS. Id never have anything else, and I even use it VFR. Having the WAAS GPS and the ability to let the autopilot fly the entire approach is a nice feature too. But a good point was made, don't be a passenger, always monitor what's going on even if the AP is flying the airplane. And definitely be able to hand fly any approach because autopilots do fail sometimes.
 
Single pilot IFR can be a handful in tougher IMC. I trained in a plane without an autopilot. What I fly now has a single axis that will track the GPS or VOR/LOC.

Climbing or descending through a layer, no big deal. Or clipping through the tops of puffies. But an hour or two in the solid clag gets tiring. You just can't divert your attention too often, or too long.

While Ican fly IFR without the AP, I would not launch into tough IMC without it.
 
I'd put the moving map IFR GPS as my #1 priority. Much as I like my autopilot, if I had to pick one it would be the GPS. You're done playing situational awareness games with that.

Once you get beyond doing 60 minute legs, you'll find the autopilot really useful.
 
I did the same thing with my plane. Once I finished my PPL I bought my Cherokee 180 and stuck a GPS in it as my FIRST upgrade (along with BAS harnesses). It already had an autopilot in it but those two combined make a solid IFR platform. I have been in actual IMC and as other have said, the autopilot ISN'T required, but man it does make things easier when you are in the soup.

Oh and on a purely selfish note, I am actually selling my 180 so if you're looking for something a bit more powerful and capable then a 152, let me know :).
 
I think the autopilot is an important tool for real world single pilot IFR flying. Yes you can do it without the ap but the ap reduces your workload so much and will save you a lot of mental strain. It enables your brain to think way ahead of the airplane.
 
flyingron said:
I'd put the moving map IFR GPS as my #1 priority. Much as I like my autopilot, if I had to pick one it would be the GPS. You're done playing situational awareness games with that.

Once you get beyond doing 60 minute legs, you'll find the autopilot really useful.
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Careful, you'll get labeled a child of the magenta line:P
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Careful, you'll get labeled a child of the magenta line:P
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So be it. I can tell you that IFR flight is a whole different ball game form looking at a pair of CDI's hoping to devine your location when the moving map will show you pictorially. I did my dues flying behind the two VORs for the first 30 years or so of my flying career, the moving map is a great improvement.
 
I agree with you. I see no argument against GPS that makes one iota of sense.

"well what if the GPS system fails or gets nuked by the military??"

VORs fail/go down for maintenance. I'll use the GPS for primary nav thanks.

It's as if having BETTER situational awareness is some sort of crime that makes you a lesser pilot if you're using the GPS. And an ipad to ascertain your position? Holy hell. Mortal sin!!!!
 
I've flown with and without the autopilot in my airplane, both in VMC and IMC and I find myself more in touch with what's going on when I'm hand flying. As a result, I switch on the autopilot once every 3-4 flights for a few minutes to make sure it works and that's about it.

About the only time hand flying gets really taxing is when the ride is really rough, but at that point, the A/P may well throw in the towel in any case.

I recently took a 3.2 hour trip of which ~ 2.7 hours was in IMC. It was a thick stratus deck, almost continuous precip, mostly smooth but occasional light to moderate turb. It was nice when it was all over, but it certainly wasn't death-defying and didn't require particularly good flying skills other than unwavering confidence in what the instruments are telling ya.

The stick and rudder part of it is pretty much just like flying VFR quite honestly. If the plane is well trimmed, there isn't much to do. And I say all this about an airplane that has a reputation for being "hard to fly" and a "terrible IFR platform because it's so touchy." It isn't...and, it isn't.

Go for it without the a/p and build your confidence in the your ability to efficiently fly/manage your airplane. There are few things more satisfying.
 
It's a good idea to make sure you hand fly and use the AP. You need to be able to use the equipment in the airplane and and be able to hand fly an approach down to minimums
 
During my proficiency approaches I pretty much do each approach twice. I want to convince myself that I can both hand fly it and use the AP with facility. An approach to minimums is not the time to say what the @#*$&% is this thing doing when you decide to try a coupled approach.
 
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