Another Opinion Thread - Car Related

Nothing yet. A boat of 21' or less would be the biggest thing I have planned. The occasional small trailer of landscaping materials.


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That's funny, we have an Explorer and bought a 21' bowrider last winter. We don't tow it, it lives in a dry stack marina.

Most of the 21' bowriders are in the 3200-3500 lb range, with the trailer and some fuel aboard you could be looking at 4500-4800 lbs. Outboards are a little lighter, around 3000 empty, while blue water type fishing boats are heavier, maybe around 3700, while pontoons and fresh water fishing boats are lighter yet. We have a Yamaha 212SS, which by virtue of its Waverunner style engine and pump is both on the lighter side and also very roomy for its size.
 
I got no dog in this hunt but thought I would provide you with the greatest thing you can do when buying a new/used car. Tear off all the old badging and replace with Mercedes Benz.

Or de-badge it to let everyone know you bought the base model. :D
 
Amazingly even though we never buy them, for some reason the dealership offered a third party warranty extension that had a TOTAL cost of $350. I was floored. And bought it on the spot.

Wow, that's one heck of an overriding factor! Color me impressed.
 
Wow, that's one heck of an overriding factor! Color me impressed.

This is going to get long, but it's fun...

That warranty extension had to have been some kind of mistake somewhere, $350 to extend a warranty significantly beyond the manufacturer's is total business insanity. I often wonder if that warranty company is out of business, or at least ran themselves through the bankruptcy car wash and came out squeaky clean with higher prices after that big of a screwup.

I mean seriously. We went to buy the car. We had already negotiated the price OFF-site (did I mention I hate car dealers wasting my time) and they still tried the "upsells" during paperwork signing, which was damned close to me standing up and walking out the door...

The guy says, "I understand you don't want to pay anything other than already negotiated, the Internet Sales Manager already warned me, but you really should consider this..." and then showed me the price and what it covered on a simple one page piece of paper. I was honestly already about to say, "Put that stuff away and if you offer me any other upsell items, we are leaving..." when I looked down and saw $350 and a list of stuff covered that was insane.

Instead I said, "Is that price missing a zero, or is it monthly?!"

Guy shrugs and says, "Nope. It's a one-time price. We think it's a pretty good deal, too!"

This was also one of two dealerships who have claimed over time that they could beat my financing, which one dealership "lost" at and had to get their own dealership Commerical credit line involved to meet the terms we signed.

So he goes into that pitch next, and my usual response to that pitch is "Not [****ing] likely... but what have you got?"

These guys did it right. They had a DIFFERENT credit union on the hook to beat ANY other credit union's financing rate by a full percentage point at a minimum and they made the other credit union do it. I was impressed. I had to pay $20 to join it. Ha.

Sadly, the dealership that sold us the VW lemon was the best to do business with ever... and I've owned at least ten to twelve vehicles purchased at dealerships. Maybe more.

So... a side note. I was going to link to them and say if someone needed a VW, they should certainly go there. But as I was searching for their dealership I found this article instead.

http://m.gazette.com/heuberger-sheds-the-volkswagen-brand-penkhus-picks-it-up/article/60693

They dumped VW in 2009, switched to all Subaru, and were the largest Subaru dealer in the country that year.

Doesn't surprise me a bit. Here's hoping they've kept doing whatever it was that they were doing. They were doing it very very right as a dealership back then.

Selling VW off to expand and only sell Subarus around here sounds like someone had real business sense. It is Colorado after all. The place oozed "smart" back when I was dealing with them before '09.

Haven't googled to see if they kept it up for eight years hence or not, but I saw snippets of numerous high reviews when liking up that article, and I still see their dealer tags running around up north here in Metro Denver, so that says something that people go south 100 miles to do business with them.

Never connected the dots on the cars that I've seen recently with their tags as being all Subarus though. Or just figured they were a multi-brand dealer.

We did always make fun of their name, though. We always called that the "Huge Burger" car. Haha. It got other meaner names as time passed, however. LOL!

The dealership who handled all the maintenance was in Denver Metro and comparatively they were a grimy little place with good service department reviews and little else going for them. I wouldn't have purchased a vehicle there on a bet. But the service bay was run well.

If that car hadn't been a POS we'd still be driving it. Right size. Wagon. TDI Diesel. Great mileage. Drove awesome for the first few years. Did a trip to South Dakota where we got 40 MPG. Karenwas a home care nurse back then and drove all over. Tons of miles. But...

Suspension and steering slowly degraded to crap over the next three years. With the major problems keeping it in the shop constantly we put zero money into dealing with those two things and the sluggish power response it exhibited on the second transmission sealed the deal.

Our rural move made us decide to look for a late model Lincoln LT as the only pickup truck Karen might like, being a city girl with her brandy new Civic and later her brandy new VW, and once she drove it, she was hooked. That search took a while.

We eventually found an '08 100 miles the other direction and that was the last year for the LT. The Ford dealer that had the LT on their lot gave us a reasonable offer on the VW for what I knew was wrong with it, as a trade in, and I'm sure they auctioned it off. I wanted nothing to do with someone coming back on me in a private sale of that POS so a trade in was always where it was going to go.

That was the dealer who wanted to know my info for running our credit and the poor sales guy blinked twice and swallowed when I said if it was her truck, he should be talking to HER. Haha. I think he learned not to assume the MALE is buying the truck that day. Haha.

Nice kid. He blinked again when SHE said, "How long will this take? We already have financing or I could just write you a check..." Then he still wanted to run both of our credit which I inwardly laughed at and let him do.

Then the propane tanks at a storage facility across the street literally exploded, and we had mild firefighting entertainment to preoccupy us while he ran the silly credit numbers.

And they couldn't beat our credit union -- again. LOL. They never learn. But he was funny when he came back and announced that both scores were over 800 so it "Doesn't matter who's name we put it in..." I glared at him half serious and half joking and said, "I thought I told you already this is her truck and her deal?"

He looked sheepish and said he would have the stuff typed up in her name. She laughed and said, "Oh HE can be on the title if he wants. It's easier that way if I croak."

I do love my wife. She knows when we are playing with a sales guy. Especially a rural northern Colorado one who's used to Bubba rolling in with bad credit and buying a car for the "little lady, so she doesn't get ripped off!" Hahaha.

That poor kid didn't know WHAT to make of us by the time we watched the bonfire get out out and signed the papers and headed home in the truck.

Even more fun, they forgot to fuel it. The detail
guys we're watching the fire too.

So a couple days later I get the standard Ford form letter from the kid saying he's going to always be there for us for any of our "needs", so I reply back that we almost ran out of gas on the way home after he said it was full. More messing with him. I knew we just went and put gas in it and didn't care.

He freaked out and replied that he'd check with his manager and get some free oil changes or something. Haha. I let him off the hook and told him it was no big deal, we'd already filled it twice and his dealership is too far from home to drive up there for $20 worth of bulk oil and a filter. Haha. Poor kid. Bet he checks every car that leaves the lot now.

He still emails from time to time asking if we need anything. He must be one of those rare ones who likes selling cars. He's still there after three years. Nice kid. I'd let him shop for our next truck for us if he's still around in another five or six years. Grin!

Car dealer storytime over. I love messing with car dealers. I go in planning on fun and mischief because I know they're usually going to waste many hours of my time. Might as well make it into free entertainment!
 
This is the dilemma. The size/class of vehicle I want is limited in tow capacity. The Touareg is rated to 7,700 lbs but the V6 seems a bit small for that.

Not a fan of Toyota or Nissan.

Why doesn't anyone make a mid-size SUV with a 250 HP, 400 ft lb torque diesel that will tow 8,000 lbs?


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They do, it's called the Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel. Mercedes and BMW make one as well
 
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I got no dog in this hunt but thought I would provide you with the greatest thing you can do when buying a new/used car. Tear off all the old badging and replace with Mercedes Benz. You're welcome.

Funny thing is, the Smart car is a Daimler AG brand. So it really is a Mercedes, just a very small, cheap one.
 
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I got no dog in this hunt but thought I would provide you with the greatest thing you can do when buying a new/used car. Tear off all the old badging and replace with Mercedes Benz. You're welcome.

LOL. Years ago my roommate's GF had a tiny little Renault. Someone put a BMW emblem on the hood. Not long after she got a parking ticket describing her car as a Bimmer. She was so thrilled I thought she was going to frame it.
 
This is the dilemma. The size/class of vehicle I want is limited in tow capacity. The Touareg is rated to 7,700 lbs but the V6 seems a bit small for that.

Not a fan of Toyota or Nissan.

Why doesn't anyone make a mid-size SUV with a 250 HP, 400 ft lb torque diesel that will tow 8,000 lbs?


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I think Audi makes a diesel SUV. My biz partners wife has one and they tow their ski boat with it. But they ain't cheap!

I am not a big fan of towing anything bigger than a utility trailer with a unit body vehicle. All my tow vehicles are American made pickups.
 
LOL. I have to go with @SoonerAviator on this one, and I own and drive a Yukon. Chevy hasn't updated the drivetrain or real tech in these trucks since the early 2000's. The truck is almost two decades old. There's no significant difference between my '04 and a new one. And this same truck was available in '01.

The Yukon XL only survives because Ford exited the market and killed the Expedition, which is what they should bring back, with a diesel.

Ford has made some mistakes but at least they're trying things. Chevy runs commercials showing 20 year old designs and "JD Power Initial Quality Awards". Great. It has "initial quality"... so does everything the day it drives off of the lot. How about "day two quality"? LMAO.

Chevy died when they went bankrupt. They haven't recovered. If you want a twenty year old design, they're your manufacturer! LOL!

I laughed when I saw a new Silverado tonight. Same truck, new headlights and fancy taillights. Not a single new real design change since 2001.

Boring, or tried-and-true... not sure what you'd call it, but I wouldn't put new money into a Chevy/GMC. Not until they show signs of life.

At the moment we have 2 gas engine GMCs and one diesel Ford pickup in the family. One of the GMCs is past 300,000 miles and is still a daily driver. The two others are past 200,000 miles. Comfortable, durable, reliable. I live in the Rockies, but more remote than you are in Denver. Those are the things that count. I haven't owned an American pickup yet that hasn't made it past 10 years and 300,000 miles. Sometimes new technology isn't beneficial.
 
That's funny, we have an Explorer and bought a 21' bowrider last winter. We don't tow it, it lives in a dry stack marina.

Most of the 21' bowriders are in the 3200-3500 lb range, with the trailer and some fuel aboard you could be looking at 4500-4800 lbs. Outboards are a little lighter, around 3000 empty, while blue water type fishing boats are heavier, maybe around 3700, while pontoons and fresh water fishing boats are lighter yet. We have a Yamaha 212SS, which by virtue of its Waverunner style engine and pump is both on the lighter side and also very roomy for its size.

Jet boats are what I'm interested in. I like the Scarabs but for having Rotax engines they seem to have a higher than average amount of problems. Yamaha seems to be where it's at in this segment.

They do, it's called the Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel. Mercedes and BMW make one as well

This is not a flattering review of the diesel Cherokee. Granted it is a few years old so maybe they are better. Can't imagine they've increased the payload much though. My parents have owned several Jeeps and they all had drivetrain issues. One left us, including my then 1 and 3 year old kids, stranded on the side of an interstate. So, nah. Merc/BMW are beyond what I'm willing to pay. And, yes, I realize I am hard to please.



I think Audi makes a diesel SUV. My biz partners wife has one and they tow their ski boat with it. But they ain't cheap!

I am not a big fan of towing anything bigger than a utility trailer with a unit body vehicle. All my tow vehicles are American made pickups.

Audi = VW = no diesels. Unless you go used but those seem to be hard to come by. At least in my neck of the woods.
 
Since you are not getting anywhere in your choices and want German , then just get a unimog. As ,amu doors as you need, tow anything, go anywhere, never lose it in a parking lot and all the ladies will think you are a rock star.

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Why doesn't anyone make a mid-size SUV with a 250 HP, 400 ft lb torque diesel that will tow 8,000 lbs?

Because the engine isn't the problem. Seriously. All of those SUV's you mentioned have 250+HP V6's which is more than adequate to tow a 21' boat of ANY make. The problem is suspension and transmission choices, as well as body design. Those SUV's you are looking at are all uni-body designs, which limits their towing capacity almost by default. The vehicles which will be able rated to tow 7.5K lbs will be body-on-frame designs. Regarding the engines, a diesel isn't needed in any way to tow 5K lbs. If you recall, prior to the recent HP wars, most full size trucks had 200HP or less from a V8 (and uninspiring torque as well). A modern gasser V6 will do just fine, and the EcoBoost in the Fords will flat out haul. I, personally, wouldn't be comfortable buying the VW, just because of the results I've seen from friends who've owned them, but it will meet your spec.

The Dodge Durango (or Jeep Grand Cherokee if you want to pay more for the same drivetrain in a smaller SUV) fits your size-class like the Explorer/Pilot, will tow 7,400lbs or so with the V8, 6,200lbs with the V6. 3 rows (in the Durango) and the look pretty sporty as well. I've driven a few as rentals and have no complaints, especially with the Citadel model. You might give it a look.
 
Jet boats are what I'm interested in. I like the Scarabs but for having Rotax engines they seem to have a higher than average amount of problems. Yamaha seems to be where it's at in this segment.



This is not a flattering review of the diesel Cherokee. Granted it is a few years old so maybe they are better. Can't imagine they've increased the payload much though. My parents have owned several Jeeps and they all had drivetrain issues. One left us, including my then 1 and 3 year old kids, stranded on the side of an interstate. So, nah. Merc/BMW are beyond what I'm willing to pay. And, yes, I realize I am hard to please.





Audi = VW = no diesels. Unless you go used but those seem to be hard to come by. At least in my neck of the woods.
To be clear, I wasn't recommending the GC as I know Fiat quality problems all too well. Just saying that they do exist. For what you want to do I think any v6 cross over would probably do. If not it's hard to beat a Tahoe/Yukon.
 
I've got a couple hundred thousand miles of towing behind me. We have a 23' cuddy cabin boat that weighs around 7k lbs. We towed it with our 1/2-ton Avalanche for a few seasons and it was a genuinely frightening experience. 1/2-ton trucks really don't tow anything larger than a motorcycle trailer very well, and you're listing SUVs that aren't even 1/2-ton.

Personally, I think any of those choices are going to be bad for towing. My recommendation would be to find a used Suburban or Expedition if you want an SUV. We have an Excursion and it does a great job, but it sounds like you don't want to go that old. If you can find a 3/4-ton Suburban, I would definitely go that route over the 1/2-ton. The "newer" 3/4-ton Suburbans mostly have 6.0L gassers. That's a good engine.

If a 3/4-ton crew cab pickup will work for you, that would be best.
 
Buy a Pilot, only because they're built in Alabama. Plus you're a pilot, so you'd be driving a Pilot among the earthlings when you're ground bound. Cool huh.

If this is the criteria, we need to add the Lincoln Aviator to the list. Would you rather be a pilot or an aviator?
 
If you recall, prior to the recent HP wars, most full size trucks had 200HP or less from a V8 (and uninspiring torque as well).

Boy is that the truth. My '01 F-150 Supercrew has a 5.4 V-8 that makes a MIGHTY 260hp. Almost all V-6's best that these days. That truck is rated to tow 7700#, and I've pulled 6500# thru the mountains of WV with no issues. Yeah, it downshifts and revs high, but it had no problems maintaining 65mph on I-79, US-19, and I-77. The engine isn't the issue, having beefy enough frame and brakes is.

Our boat on trailer goes 5000#, and I wouldn't want anything smaller than a half ton or full size SUV to tow it, regardless of engine and tow rating.
 
A 21 foot boat should be in the 25-3500 lb range, so a lot of vehicles will tow it easily. The question is how far, how often and over what terrain do you anticipate towing it?? Twice a week over mountains, 12 weeks per year is a lot different than from the garage 12 miles over flat ground to the lake a couple times per year. :D Of course, I am a Ford guy, but the Explorer should handle towing just about any 21 foot boat. I try not to bash other products everything has their good points, but I would not let a friend buy a VW. :rolleyes:
 
In terms of total cost of ownership, my wife's 2011 Tiguan costs more to own and operate than the combination of my 1/4 share 2007 DA-40 and my 2009 Mazda. It's an unmitigated disaster. The dealer experiences have been terrible, the depreciation considerable, and the repair bills obscene. She wanted to lease a Q-5.... I'm smarting from that decision.
 
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Misses on several levels, but an excuse to show off our setup:

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2011 Ford Flex bought used, with EcoBoost V6 and 365 hp. Towing limits are 4,500 lbs with weight distributing hitch and 450 lb tongue weight.

We exceed the latter but got the receiver reinforced and have towed about 12,000 miles to date with no issues.

The Flex has been quite reliable.
 
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My brother had a Tourag but thought it was underpowered. It was comfortable though.

I'd go Explorer or Tahoe.
 
Just a word of wisdom on towing. Figure out what the heaviest thing you'll ever tow is. Then make sure your tow vehicle can handle at a minimum 25% more than that. Preferably, especially if towing often or over a distance more like 50% more.

If you tow close to your vehicle tow rating, the engine will be lugging all the time, you'll have trouble keeping up with traffic, you'll be cringing at every stop, etc. That tow rating is a manufacturer's estimate of what the most the vehicle can do is and it's usually pretty optimistic.

From that list, I'd probably say Explorer but I hate the Explorer.... I'd be more into a Tahoe or Flex.
 
I guess I am in the minority here. I have a new body style Denali and love it. Zero issues and at 15k miles. My boss has 2 new body style Yukon, one with 50k miles and zero issues on either. My wife has a 2012 Tiguan and besides a intermittent low tire light, no issues and just oil changes.

I agree with above, its not horsepower or torque so much as suspension and brakes that you have to be concerned with.
 
Most vehicles will comfortably tow over what they are rated as the manufacturer always leaves a margin of safety. Just make sure your tires are inflated and you have a transmission cooler and decent brake pads. I routinely pull 4500 lbs with a Saturn vue that is rated for 3500 with no problems.
 
Just a word of wisdom on towing. Figure out what the heaviest thing you'll ever tow is. Then make sure your tow vehicle can handle at a minimum 25% more than that. Preferably, especially if towing often or over a distance more like 50% more.

Agreed, which is why I ruled out the Explorer and others for him if he truly intends to get a boat that large. A 21' runabout w/trailer will be every bit of 4-5Klbs depending on engine option and manufacturer (Cobalt/Formula are heavier than Stingray/Yamaha, etc). If the Explorer has a 5K tow rating even the most optimistic boat GVWR will be over 80% of the rated capacity. Find an SUV rated to tow 7K lbs, and he'll be in the sweet spot.

A 21 foot boat should be in the 25-3500 lb range, so a lot of vehicles will tow it easily. The question is how far, how often and over what terrain do you anticipate towing it?? Twice a week over mountains, 12 weeks per year is a lot different than from the garage 12 miles over flat ground to the lake a couple times per year. :D Of course, I am a Ford guy, but the Explorer should handle towing just about any 21 foot boat. I try not to bash other products everything has their good points, but I would not let a friend buy a VW. :rolleyes:

Only if you're talking about bass boats. I would say the average weight of a 21' runabout is 3500lbs, plus 1000 lbs for a tandem axle trailer. Add another 3-500lbs for fuel, batteries, anchor, cooler, etc, larger engine option (most boat weight specs are done with the smallest engine option). You'll be at or close to the 5Klbs mark, which isn't where I'd want to be when the max tow is at 5K. Also, it hasn't been really discussed yet, but looking at the GCWR is another eye-opener. Although the Explorer, Pilot (or any other vehicle) may be able to tow 5K lbs, it usually assumes only a driver in the vehicle while doing so. You add 400-500lbs worth of people and gear in the SUV, and you're now only able to tow 4500lbs.
 
Most vehicles will comfortably tow over what they are rated as the manufacturer always leaves a margin of safety. Just make sure your tires are inflated and you have a transmission cooler and decent brake pads. I routinely pull 4500 lbs with a Saturn vue that is rated for 3500 with no problems.

I think "comfortably" is questionable. I found that the Avalanche couldn't even comfortably tow what it was rated for.
 
I think "comfortably" is questionable. I found that the Avalanche couldn't even comfortably tow what it was rated for.

Maybe our definition of comfortably is just different. Some people are naturally more cautious or timid.
 
I just bought a Macan GTS and like the car plenty but I don't think it is much of a tow-vehicle. Looks like 4400 lb tow limit.

The Macan is a compact car. The Cayenne has a 7 or 8k tow rating. Gotta be able to tow your horse trailer to your estate in the Tuscan countryside after all.
 
Maybe our definition of comfortably is just different. Some people are naturally more cautious or timid.

A lot of it depends on how slow you're willing to drive. I moved my boat with a Jeep Wrangler (TJ, 4-cylinder), but it was within the driveway all under 5 MPH. I would never take it on the road. Like I said, I've got a couple hundred thousand miles of towing experience and I've towed some big and heavy loads. Plenty of those miles have been with setups that were marginal at best, so I haven't only towed with top end equipment, or even equipment that was right for the job.

For the most part it comes down to if you go slow and aren't going far, at some point anything will work well enough (hills throw in another variable though, and brakes matter).
 
I guess semi trucks can't tow comfortably since they are slow, and often drop to a crawl going up mountain passes. Towing isn't a race but I suppose that's what keeps selling these 70k diesel trucks. In the 60's there were trucks towing 18k pounds with under 200 hp 6 cylinder gas engines. Most half ton trucks now a days are rated at 12k towing.
 
My brother tows an equipment trailer loaded to 4600lbs all over europe using an E-class benz with a 204hp diesel. I have driven the little rig at times and yes, you know its there but with the inertia brakes, it doesn't even push the car when you have to slow down. I am mildly amused when I see folks here in the US excited about towing a 5000lb trailer with anything less than a 3/4 ton pickup.
 
Just for giggles... quoting new because those specs are easy to find. Looks like 19 ft is about the max for the class of vehicle under consideration.

New 21 ft Yamaha (twin engine) - dry weight w/trailer 4,224 lbs + 300 lbs for full gas = 90% rated capacity assuming 5,000 Lbs
New 19 ft Yamaha (single) - dry weight w/trailer 2,935 lbs + 180 lbs for full gas = 62% rated capacity assuming 5,000 Lbs
New 21 ft Sea Ray - dry weight w/trailer 4,403 lbs + 240 lbs for full gas = 93% rated capacity assuming 5,000 Lbs
New 19 ft Sea Ray - dry weight w/trailer 3,380 lbs + 180 lbs for full gas = 71% rated capacity assuming 5,000 Lbs
 
I guess semi trucks can't tow comfortably since they are slow, and often drop to a crawl going up mountain passes. Towing isn't a race but I suppose that's what keeps selling these 70k diesel trucks. In the 60's there were trucks towing 18k pounds with under 200 hp 6 cylinder gas engines. Most half ton trucks now a days are rated at 12k towing.

So true. It's a point of pride that these guys can maintain a decent speed up a grade. Have to slow down a little while tackling a hill with the USS Braggadocio in tow? A first-world problem to be sure!
 
I guess semi trucks can't tow comfortably since they are slow, and often drop to a crawl going up mountain passes. Towing isn't a race but I suppose that's what keeps selling these 70k diesel trucks. In the 60's there were trucks towing 18k pounds with under 200 hp 6 cylinder gas engines. Most half ton trucks now a days are rated at 12k towing.

Not what I said. Of course semis tow comfortably. They also have the suspension and brakes designed to do it, which are the big factors. How fast they go depends on the engine. Plenty of semis out there with big powerplants that will do 80+ loaded down. And yes, I've had plenty of hills where I have to slow down, even with 3/4-ton diesel trucks.

The point is primarily brakes and suspension. The Avalanche, as an example, did poorly in the departments of accelerating, stopping, and turning. Stopping and turning are where the safety aspects come in, and where smaller vehicles tend to perform poorly.

I've observed that most boat owners either go overboard (diesel dually to tow a 4,000 lb boat) or the opposite (Tahoe towing a 7,000+ lb boat). The Tahoes inevitably have the back end way down, nose way up. You see them go down the highway swaying all over. I pass them as fast as I can. And no, towing isn't a race, but if you're going longer distances you still want to be able to do it in a reasonable time frame. Same reason folks upgrade to faster planes. No matter what, you want the brakes and suspension to do it safely. I just haven't seen smaller vehicles have the brakes and suspension to actually do it well. The example of an E-class Mercedes towing a 4500 lb trailer I'd figure would work well. My E55 has a suspension and braking.
 
I'll have to go against @denverpilot on this one. I'd go for one of the fords with the ecoboost engines :D.

My neighbor just got a new Ford Expedition. Starts at $47,125 and has a towing capacity of 9,200 pounds. Pretty expensive, but a really nice car in my opinion.
You can buy a pretty decent airplane for that money. But it won't carry 9,200 lbs.
 
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