Another Opinion Thread - Car Related

[mscard88]

The point is primarily brakes and suspension. The Avalanche, as an example, did poorly in the departments of accelerating, stopping, and turning.

That truck is really a 1/2 ton Sierra with all that plastic crap on it isn't it?

 

[Ted]

That truck is really a 1/2 ton Sierra with all that plastic crap on it isn't it?

Yes. The Avalanche is a particularly bad tow vehicle. Coil rear springs, etc. But I've also towed with other 1/2-ton pickups, and been consistently unimpressed.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That truck is really a 1/2 ton Sierra with all that plastic crap on it isn't it?

It's actually built on the suburban frame, not the truck frame. They had a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton version, but most are the 1/2 ton. As Ted mentioned, the coil springs made them particularly bad at towing heavier weights. The faded grey plastic cladding on 50% of the truck didn't help win them many fans, either.

 

[Grum.Man]

All you need are some load leveling springs or airbags. Most trailers have good brakes now a days so with a good brake controller stopping should be of little concern.

 

[SoonerAviator]

All you need are some load leveling springs or airbags. Most trailers have good brakes now a days so with a good brake controller stopping should be of little concern.

Shouldn't have needed them to tow factory-approved weights, it was just a poor design choice.

 

[Grum.Man]

Shouldn't have needed them to tow factory-approved weights, it was just a poor design choice.

What exactly made them bad, just because they squat?? Just about any truck loaded to their max is going to have considerable squat. All of Dodge's 1/2 ton trucks have coil sprung rear suspensions. In fact, a 3 or 4 linked coil spring suspension should handle the weight better as it will have less lateral movement.

 

[Ted]

All you need are some load leveling springs or airbags. Most trailers have good brakes now a days so with a good brake controller stopping should be of little concern.

Nope. Put on airbags. Still towed like crap. Also upgraded the anti-roll bars.

 

[Skip Miller]

I've observed that most boat owners either go overboard (diesel dually to tow a 4,000 lb boat) ....

Those are the guys with the matching boat/trailer/tow vehicle paint jobs? -Skip

 

[cowman]

Agreed, which is why I ruled out the Explorer and others for him if he truly intends to get a boat that large. A 21' runabout w/trailer will be every bit of 4-5Klbs depending on engine option and manufacturer (Cobalt/Formula are heavier than Stingray/Yamaha, etc). If the Explorer has a 5K tow rating even the most optimistic boat GVWR will be over 80% of the rated capacity. Find an SUV rated to tow 7K lbs, and he'll be in the sweet spot.



Only if you're talking about bass boats. I would say the average weight of a 21' runabout is 3500lbs, plus 1000 lbs for a tandem axle trailer. Add another 3-500lbs for fuel, batteries, anchor, cooler, etc, larger engine option (most boat weight specs are done with the smallest engine option). You'll be at or close to the 5Klbs mark, which isn't where I'd want to be when the max tow is at 5K. Also, it hasn't been really discussed yet, but looking at the GCWR is another eye-opener. Although the Explorer, Pilot (or any other vehicle) may be able to tow 5K lbs, it usually assumes only a driver in the vehicle while doing so. You add 400-500lbs worth of people and gear in the SUV, and you're now only able to tow 4500lbs.

Ok, I had no idea what a boat weighs.

So a data point for the OP. I frequently tow a horse trailer that weighs around 3500-5000# depending on what horses are in it and what else is loaded. I pull it with an F-150 with a 5.0 and 3.73 rear end. Tow rating on that truck is a bit over 9000#. So I'm well under the rated towing capacity..... but with thousands of miles of experience with this setup I will tell you this is the lightest truck I'd want to tow that trailer with for any distance. If I was going to start pulling a larger heavier trailer on a regular basis I'd go right up to a 3/4 ton truck.

Would I tow my 5000# horse trailer with an explorer? In a pinch.... over a short distance if the tow ratings said I could and the explorer had the trailer braking setup I suppose I'd do it but it's not something I'd want to do if I had another choice. As has been said here a few other times it's not the power of the engine it's the braking ability, suspension, and weight of the tow vehicle that matter.

 

[Ted]

Those are the guys with the matching boat/trailer/tow vehicle paint jobs? -Skip

Yeah, I remember some guy with a lifted, chrome-wheeled, 6" exhaust quad cab 2500 Duramax. He was towing a pretty small MasterCraft ski boat. Both were painted to match. I think the girls he brought with him even had matching bikinis.

 

[weilke]

Yeah, I remember some guy with a lifted, chrome-wheeled, 6" exhaust quad cab 2500 Duramax. He was towing a pretty small MasterCraft ski boat. Both were painted to match. I think the girls he brought with him even had matching bikinis.

That suggests that the matching paintjob thing works.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Ok, I had no idea what a boat weighs.

So a data point for the OP. I frequently tow a horse trailer that weighs around 3500-5000# depending on what horses are in it and what else is loaded. I pull it with an F-150 with a 5.0 and 3.73 rear end. Tow rating on that truck is a bit over 9000#. So I'm well under the rated towing capacity..... but with thousands of miles of experience with this setup I will tell you this is the lightest truck I'd want to tow that trailer with for any distance. If I was going to start pulling a larger heavier trailer on a regular basis I'd go right up to a 3/4 ton truck.

Would I tow my 5000# horse trailer with an explorer? In a pinch.... over a short distance if the tow ratings said I could and the explorer had the trailer braking setup I suppose I'd do it but it's not something I'd want to do if I had another choice. As has been said here a few other times it's not the power of the engine it's the braking ability, suspension, and weight of the tow vehicle that matter.

Absolutely agree. If I'm towing 6-7K lbs once a month for a few hundred miles, the 1/2 ton is fine. If I'm doing it several times a month, or traveling longer distances with steep grades, the 3/4 ton or better truck is the best option just due to having larger brakes, longer wheelbase, and sheer mass working on your side.


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[denverpilot]

All you need are some load leveling springs or airbags. Most trailers have good brakes now a days so with a good brake controller stopping should be of little concern.

You know @gkainz and I see people in another RV forum we frequent, say that all the time when they realize they bought something WAY above the yellow door sticker numbers and they're towing it with a half ton over gross. (Some states are getting really cranky about this. State Trooper catches it during a stop and it's a BIG dollar ticket now.)

Then a year later or so, once they've thought about it a bit and especially if they live in one of the high enforcement states, and decide they don't want a ticket that big...

They go get an HD truck.

And then the post comes to the forum...

"OMG! We upgraded our TV [tow vehicle in RV forum slang] and holy cow. It tracks better, stops better, takes off from a stop better, and feels like nothing is back there! This is amazing!"

And the assembled crowd always says the same thing...

"Told ya so! Congrats on the new TV..."

Shouldn't have needed them to tow factory-approved weights, it was just a poor design choice.

It's definitely about the weight. And the manufacturers hide the weight penalty that the up-trim packages knock off of the "max" towing weights you see on their websites. There's currently over 25 combinations that will lead to different legal and safe tow weights on Dodges, alone, between the engines, transmission options, and camper sway bar packages BESIDES what the interior stuff weighs. The ONLY way to know for certain you're in weight is by the door frame sticker or VERY careful special ordering or shopping.

An example is the difference between the Aisin transmission and the non-Aisin in the top end Dodge's with the Cummins. It's almost a 4000 lb penalty to not upgrade to the Aisin.

What exactly made them bad, just because they squat?? Just about any truck loaded to their max is going to have considerable squat. All of Dodge's 1/2 ton trucks have coil sprung rear suspensions. In fact, a 3 or 4 linked coil spring suspension should handle the weight better as it will have less lateral movement.

The majority of the time I see RVers at campsites with air bags and a half ton, if I can get them into a conversation over a beer, I'll ask to look at the door sticker. They're almost always way overweight. Not at their "max". Considerably over it. Thousands of pounds. It's very hard to keep a half ton inside the truck's published limitations with the modern camper trailers the RV dealers push. And the dealers don't care if you wreck the rig or need to add air bags just to keep the thing level. They tell people every day that they can pull a 35' fifth wheel behind their half ton "just fine" to make the sale.

Ok, I had no idea what a boat weighs.

So a data point for the OP. I frequently tow a horse trailer that weighs around 3500-5000# depending on what horses are in it and what else is loaded. I pull it with an F-150 with a 5.0 and 3.73 rear end. Tow rating on that truck is a bit over 9000#. So I'm well under the rated towing capacity..... but with thousands of miles of experience with this setup I will tell you this is the lightest truck I'd want to tow that trailer with for any distance. If I was going to start pulling a larger heavier trailer on a regular basis I'd go right up to a 3/4 ton truck.

Would I tow my 5000# horse trailer with an explorer? In a pinch.... over a short distance if the tow ratings said I could and the explorer had the trailer braking setup I suppose I'd do it but it's not something I'd want to do if I had another choice. As has been said here a few other times it's not the power of the engine it's the braking ability, suspension, and weight of the tow vehicle that matter.

Agreed. That Coyote motor setup on the right F-150 is one of the highest tow ratings on a half ton out there and it does really well for what it is. I have a friend who knows these weight limits and does it correctly who purchased a "featherweight" fifth wheel and even carefully selected his slider hitch to get a light but strong enough one, and he pulls about 9,000 of trailer plus water with it, and it does exceedingly well for a half ton.

He can't outrun me even with another 3,000 lbs of trailer behind my Cummins, but he can often keep up or just barely fall back in the mountains. And if the grade is long enough, I can start getting into EGT time limits that he doesn't have because he doesn't have a turbo to worry about. It's one strong truck for a half ton.

There's a lot of totally overloaded half tons out there on the open road though. I just shake my head and stay far away when I see some doof with a 40' fifth wheel toy hauler on three axles, pulling it behind a half ton. Definitely don't want to be in front of him if he needs to stop it in a hurry. Those people are insane.

There has been rumor in the RV forums for some time now that insurers are going to start subrogating against owners who tow way over their truck's limits, if they place claims for accidents, but nobody has shown any actual court cases where it's happened for certain yet. Wouldn't surprise me if they start, though.

Personally I won't tow over the truck's numbers and I weigh the rig at a nearby Cat scale fully loaded with water and provisions whenever anything changes significantly in weight. Only takes a few minutes. Hardest part is pushing the call button way up there where a big rig cab would be from standing on the pickup's running boards! Haha.

 

[denverpilot]

At the moment we have 2 gas engine GMCs and one diesel Ford pickup in the family. One of the GMCs is past 300,000 miles and is still a daily driver. The two others are past 200,000 miles. Comfortable, durable, reliable. I live in the Rockies, but more remote than you are in Denver. Those are the things that count. I haven't owned an American pickup yet that hasn't made it past 10 years and 300,000 miles. Sometimes new technology isn't beneficial.

I have to ask since we aren't there yet on any of ours... original transmissions in all three at 300,000? And what model years? Some of the older GMC stuff was built like tanks. I would have kept dad's old '97 3/4 ton Suburban with the huge engine but I just couldn't justify even as an occasional driver to haul stuff, a truck that consistently got 8 MPG loaded or unloaded. Hahaha. Sure was a beast though.

I'm pretty sure the '04 Yukon won't make it much past 150,000 without losing the transmission, and that's pretty common as the major failure in most modern and semi modern half tons at that mileage. Especially if they've been used to do real work. Nobody in any forum anywhere I've seen, hasn't reported a transmission loss around 150,000on the early 2000's vintage truck's. And I'm ther now, mileage-wise. And once in a while it does odd things when shifting on hills. It's slipping a little I can tell.

It likes being in tow/haul mode (torque converter locked and higher RPM shift points) on rolling hills. It's sloppy picking up and delivering torque after a long downhill in cruise... it'll mess around in high gear, and then as the accelerator goes to the floor slowly it'll rev and grab third at high rpm and then behave in fourth and OD once back in the flat.

I figure it'll break sometime in the next two years. It'll be a budgeted thing to slam a rebuilt transmission in it. Or I'll see what @AggieMike88 has around. Depending on how long we plan to drive it.

My brother tows an equipment trailer loaded to 4600lbs all over europe using an E-class benz with a 204hp diesel. I have driven the little rig at times and yes, you know its there but with the inertia brakes, it doesn't even push the car when you have to slow down. I am mildly amused when I see folks here in the US excited about towing a 5000lb trailer with anything less than a 3/4 ton pickup.

5000 lb is well within a modern half ton's capability. My 10,000 lb (rated but rarely that full) dual axle cargo trailer when not fully loaded is also easily in half ton territory, until you load it full. It's enclosed and the wind resistance from the wide flat front is massive on top of all the weight. Even lightly loaded it's a lot of drag on anything pulling it. In a headwind, might as well use the fuel gauge as a second hand on a clock. Haha.

 

[AggieMike88]

Gonna burst your bubble a bit Nate on GM longevity ... we retired a 2001 Silverado 1/2-ton truck a few years ago that had 552k miles on it. Original engine and only two transmissions.

Set a frequent preventative maintenance schedule and stick with it.

 

[Grum.Man]

My 1/2 ton Chevrolet has 260k miles on original engine and transmission. Like @AggieMike88 said, preventative maintenance and driving properly will make them last.

 

[SoonerAviator]

My 1/2 ton Chevrolet has 260k miles on original engine and transmission. Like @AggieMike88 said, preventative maintenance and driving properly will make them last.

I've never had a truck transmission fail/give problems, and I'm bad about fluid changes. Usually once every 75-100K miles. Fluid always comes out looking pretty clean. I've had 2 Fords, the wife is on her 3rd GM. All but the current Ford/GM we own have gone 175K+ before we sold them, and never had any failure on the engines or tranny, the current ones have been solid but are closer to 120K right now with no signs of problems. My GM sedan has had the tranny replaced once at 90K, and I doubt it makes it to 150K just due to the poor reputation they have for failure on this model.

 

[GRG55]

Gonna burst your bubble a bit Nate on GM longevity ... we retired a 2001 Silverado 1/2-ton truck a few years ago that had 552k miles on it. Original engine and only two transmissions.

Set a frequent preventative maintenance schedule and stick with it.

Similar experience here.
2003 Sierra, 2nd transmission, only major component to be changed, haven't even had the heads off of it. 2010 Sierra and 2006 Ford F-350 Powerstroke still running on the originals. The Ford is used to tow my wife's 3-horse angle haul horse trailer and our 32ft 5th wheel holiday trailer...and we live in serious hill country.

Second the frequent maintenance comment. I change out the fluids in the transmission and differentials every 2 years on all my vehicles.

 

[Ted]

@denverpilot we sold Laurie's Avalanche with 167k on it or so. Original engine and transmission. Honestly I wasn't expecting the transmission to handle towing the boat well, but it didn't blow up (or even start acting up), even after the 600ish mile drive from Cincinnati to Kansas when we moved here. Towed like crap, tracked poorly, didn't stop... even broken down cars on the side of the road passed me. But, it didn't blow up. Most people I talk to with that generation GM say that 300k miles is easy to get out of them.

So back to the OP, you'll be happier towing with more capability. Doesn't necessarily need to be a diesel - our Excursion is a V10 gasser and it still tows great. I can do 70 MPH easily with the cruise control set on a level road. It'll suck fuel like it's going out of style, but it can do it fine. Plus it has the brakes and suspension to control that load. Sure, I miss my diesels (and I'll buy another one at some point), but it's not a requirement.

 

[dell30rb]

Not an appropriate truck for the OP but if anyone needs something to drive every day and tow, the 3.5 ecoboost F150's are great. I have a 2011. It will pull my 8000lb boat at 70mph on cruise control at 1900 rpm all day long on 87 octane gas. Gets about 10mpg with the boat and 20mpg unloaded.

 

[Flying_Nun]

I actually own a truck - 1995 Ram 1500 V8 Magnum. It was left to me by my father-in-law and hasn't run in 2 years. Except that one time I got it to start in October. I've replaced the fluids, plugs, battery, ignition coil, etc. I think the fuel pump might be going bad but that is a PIA to change. Need to lift the bed or drop the tank to get to it. I might also be a little scared to drive it after it has sat for so long. It also needs a hitch if I can get it going.

A truck is nice as a 3rd vehicle but doesn't fit my 80% mission. Drove an Explorer yesterday and was pleasantly surprised. Noticed a odd noise like one window was down. Have heard that is an issue with Tahoes as well. Going to check out the Durango. It's rated at 6,200 lbs with the V6.

 

[denverpilot]

Gonna burst your bubble a bit Nate on GM longevity ... we retired a 2001 Silverado 1/2-ton truck a few years ago that had 552k miles on it. Original engine and only two transmissions.

@denverpilot we sold Laurie's Avalanche with 167k on it or so. Original engine and transmission.

Oh no worries, I certainly wouldn't mind having that particular bubble burst... I don't *really* want to buy the truck a new transmission, after all!

It just definitely doesn't shift like it did at 40K when I bought it. And yes, it's on a maintenance schedule... haha...

I should take a photo of the whiteboard in the garage... keeping up with fluid changes on four vehicles (used to be five, but we sent the '84 Ford Van TV truck with 40' pneumatic mast to New Mexico this year since the local radio group has enough TV vans now!), a tractor, and two trailers, plus lawn tractor and two generators... is a part-time job! LOL. There's a column for oil, tires, brakes, transfer cases/transmissions, trailer bearings, and I forget what else. Mileages and dates. Or hours of operation for the gensets and tractor...

I found that I would forget to update a spreadsheet, but a whiteboard right next to the door going inside is easy to remember. Yep. Nerd. I know.

Speaking of the old '84 van... what a beast. After towing her to NM, the group there fixed the failed fuel pump and she fired right up, original engine and drivetrain... I figured with our ethanol corn juice they'd have to pull the carb after it sat for a year or so, but nope... it's alive! Be interesting to see the photos once they install all the gear.

A buddy lost a clutch in his 2010 Subaru manual trans this week... which sounds like no big deal right? (This is what we were talking to @AggieMike88 about...) Yeah, I'd never looked at that design before... the clutch parts coming apart blasted a hole in the *transmission* case... what a dumb design... he's having a bad week for sure.

Someone else is doing the work on it, but we looked up how to get the thing out of there... ugh! That looks like a serious cuss-fest, either pulling the trans or pulling the engine, or both, to get at it all. 10 lbs of "stuff" in a 5 lb bag, under that hood. Ick.

 

[N747JB]

I actually own a truck - 1995 Ram 1500 V8 Magnum. It was left to me by my father-in-law and hasn't run in 2 years. Except that one time I got it to start in October. I've replaced the fluids, plugs, battery, ignition coil, etc. I think the fuel pump might be going bad but that is a PIA to change. Need to lift the bed or drop the tank to get to it. I might also be a little scared to drive it after it has sat for so long. It also needs a hitch if I can get it going.

A truck is nice as a 3rd vehicle but doesn't fit my 80% mission. Drove an Explorer yesterday and was pleasantly surprised. Noticed a odd noise like one window was down. Have heard that is an issue with Tahoes as well. Going to check out the Durango. It's rated at 6,200 lbs with the V6.

If the noise was with one of the rear windows down, that's pretty common in a lot of vehicles, even F-series. If the dog wants the back window down, I either crack my window a bit or open the rear sliding window. I have noticed in a lot of different cars different makes and models.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I've been all over the respective forums, YouTube, compared specs, etc. But I'd like to hear from you opinionated bastards. I plan to do some towing so if you have direct experience with that I want the low down.

Vehicles under consideration:

- 2016/17 VW Touareg Lux/Wolfsburg
- 2016/17 Honda Pilot Elite
- 2016/17 Ford Explorer Limited AWD V6

TIA

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Your towing a light boat or a small trailer? I'm amazed no one said Toyota . I owned a 2007 Toyota truck, bought it new.it was just great! it was four passenger Tacoma , automatic! towed a u haul full of furniture over the penna. mountains. No problem,. Just a Great truck. Good ground clearance for snow, ( which the ford lacks) better drive one. Nice ride, easy driver, comfortable. I used it in snow lot in western New York State, worked great.( I've owned two porches, a 2007 911 and a 2014 Cayman. They are overpriced and the service cost is absurd at the dealer! the mac an is the same, way overpriced. Drove one, I passed.

 

[AggieMike88]

If the noise was with one of the rear windows down, that's pretty common in a lot of vehicles, even F-series. If the dog wants the back window down, I either crack my window a bit or open the rear sliding window. I have noticed in a lot of different cars different makes and models.

It happens in my 2004 SRX... excellent demonstration of how slight air pressure changes create noise.

 

[Flying_Nun]

If the noise was with one of the rear windows down, that's pretty common in a lot of vehicles, even F-series.

All windows closed. It was raining pretty good. Going to try another one to see if I can replicate the noise.


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[Flying_Nun]

Your towing a light boat or a small trailer? I'm amazed no one said Toyota . I owned a 2007 Toyota truck, bought it new.it was just great! it was four passenger Tacoma , automatic! towed a u haul full of furniture over the penna. mountains. No problem,. Just a Great truck.

Not interested in a truck. If I was the Tacoma seems a bit small for growing children.


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[SoonerAviator]

It happens in my 2004 SRX... excellent demonstration of how slight air pressure changes create noise.

Yup, most just refer to it as wind "buffeting". I actually have a fantastic solution in my F-150: crack open the back window glass. I have a power back-glass slider and a moonroof, so with the moonroof vented and the back glass open, it brings a nice cool breeze on the back of my neck. I can control the flow with the amount the back glass is opened. If I want the flow to reverse, I change the moonroof from vented position to open (or open the side windows) and the air is forced out through the back glass. It's a feature about my truck that I absolutely love, but didn't know about until after I had played with it a bit after purchase.

 

[SoonerAviator]

A truck is nice as a 3rd vehicle but doesn't fit my 80% mission. Drove an Explorer yesterday and was pleasantly surprised. Noticed a odd noise like one window was down. Have heard that is an issue with Tahoes as well. Going to check out the Durango. It's rated at 6,200 lbs with the V6.

My wife had a '99 and '01 Chevy truck, and her current '07 GMC truck do that, with all windows closed. The issue in her truck(s) is actually the door seal not working as it should. I could usually grab a hold of the door frame or window coping and pull it tight which would seal the rubber to the door until you let go. That being said, some windshields/wipers/etc are simply noisier than others when it comes to the air being spoiled.

 

[mscard88]

.( I've owned two porches They are overpriced and the service cost is absurd at the dealer!

Yeah but, it's like 75* today, and a porch is very pleasant on a day like today. More nice temps this weekend too. I'll be out relaxing with a PBR and a good book myself. Never really had them serviced though. What's that about?

I kid I kid!

 

[SoonerAviator]

Yeah but, it's like 75* today, and a porch is very pleasant on a day like today. More nice temps this weekend too. I'll be out relaxing with a PBR and a good book myself. Never really had them serviced though. What's that about?

Lol, I almost made a comment about it, but I refrained. Glad you had a little less tolerance for misspellings than me!


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[painless]

Got the wife a Pilot Elite this past June. She drives the 1000 mile round trip to St Louis to babysit grandkids often (it's what she lives for) so we have over 10,000 miles on it already. No issues to speak of. Regarding the tranny, the only time I have noticed it being doggy is if I leave the eco button on. Then the thing is terrible off the line.

Ride is comfortable and quiet. Gadgets that warn you are close to something get a bit annoying at times. Interface with the entertainment system is awkward at times.

We had a 2010 Acura MDX prior to this vehicle. Loved it. 300 ponies made it get up and go. Down side was that it required premium fuel. The Pilot has 10 less hp but runs on regular. Was important to the wife.... The Pilot feels like a much larger vehicle than the MDX. Had a chance to drive it in deeper snow lately and it felt sure footed in the "snow" mode.

Overall happy with it. If you plan to tow up to 5000 lbs, you should be ok.

 

[denverpilot]

Not interested in a truck. If I was the Tacoma seems a bit small for growing children.

If you stop feeding them, they quit growing and then child protective services takes them away, and the small truck problem is solved!

That's me, a problem solver.

Regarding the tranny, the only time I have noticed it being doggy is if I leave the eco button on. Then the thing is terrible off the line.

Snicker... eco button? People use those?

I thought they were just there to make the poor vehicle limp like a dog with a broken leg to meet CAFE standards, and as long as they're installed, the gub'mint winks and nods and pretends people use them for their "fleet MPG numbers" and the new driving tests.

Then normal people get in and turn that crap off, the second they start the car. Didn't buy this engine not to use it...

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

It happens in my 2004 SRX... excellent demonstration of how slight air pressure changes create noise.

Yep, turns the whole interior into a giant Helmholtz resonator. You can see smaller resonators of this type on the intake tract of almost any car/truck...strange little bumps sticking out from the main tube. IIRC, these are mainly to tune intake sound, but there might be some flow benefits to them as well.

 

[Flying_Nun]

If anyone is interested, I ended up with a 2017 Explorer. The 5,000 lb tow rating seems a bit of BS though - GCVWR 10,150 lbs, GVWR 6,100-ish lbs. Oh well, it will serve its purpose.