Another IFR departure procedure question

skidoo

skidoo

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skidoo
This question relates to those DP's typically with high terrain nearby and using 8S1 as the example. The departure procedure is Angil One, and requires climbing northbound and then climbing in a hold for 10,000 msl before heading on course. Departure field is about 3,000 ft.


So here is the scenerio for the question. Say, the entire valley area has a ceiling of 1600 ft, and all other weather information available indicates that it is only 500 to 1500 ft thick. It is clear and sunny virtually everywhere else, including on course and destination. In this area, ATC can not be reached by radio until at least 7500 ft, and there is no assurance of that until 10 to 13Kft. So, an IFR clearance can not be obtained in the air before reaching any imc.

Assuming ATC provides a clearance on the ground something like as follows:

Cleared to destination as filed via Angil one DP, climb and maintain 14,000. The on course heading is South.

Now, If I were to take off RWY 36 and follow the Angil One DP heading northbound, I enter IMC a couple minutes after take off, and break out on top at 5500 ft, but before reaching TEPSE. I can see there are no more clouds above and bright sunshine and 100 mile visibility on top.

My questions are:

1) Do I have to continue with the DP and fly north to the hold pattern until reaching 10000, or can I abandon the DP and turn south in VFR conditions while climbing until I can contact ATC?


2) With the clearance given, if I have to continue with the DP until in contact with ATC, is there a way to request the clearance that would allow such abandoning the DP after reaching VFR conditions and prior to being able to contact ATC?
 
AFAIK the answer to 1 is if you are cleared for that DP and you accept it. you have to follow the procedure. even if you can see to the next state, the procedure still requiires you to climb to 10000 before heading on course. im not sure about the answer to your 2nd question
 
skidoo said:
So here is the scenerio for the question. Say, the entire valley area has a ceiling of 1600 ft, and all other weather information available indicates that it is only 500 to 1500 ft thick. It is clear and sunny virtually everywhere else, including on course and destination. In this area, ATC can not be reached by radio until at least 7500 ft, and there is no assurance of that until 10 to 13Kft. So, an IFR clearance can not be obtained in the air before reaching any imc.
Click to expand...

Have you tried going through the Lakeside RCO?

Assuming ATC provides a clearance on the ground something like as follows:

Cleared to destination as filed via Angil one DP, climb and maintain 14,000. The on course heading is South.

Now, If I were to take off RWY 36 and follow the Angil One DP heading northbound, I enter IMC a couple minutes after take off, and break out on top at 5500 ft, but before reaching TEPSE. I can see there are no more clouds above and bright sunshine and 100 mile visibility on top.

My questions are:

1) Do I have to continue with the DP and fly north to the hold pattern until reaching 10000, or can I abandon the DP and turn south in VFR conditions while climbing until I can contact ATC?


2) With the clearance given, if I have to continue with the DP until in contact with ATC, is there a way to request the clearance that would allow such abandoning the DP after reaching VFR conditions and prior to being able to contact ATC?
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You have to comply with your clearance unless you have good reason not to, such as an emergency or adverse weather. "Clear and sunny virtually everywhere" doesn't qualify.
 
1. You have to continue with the DP in your departure clearance. They're expecting to pick you up at the holding fix at 10,000, not miles away because the pilot chose to go off on their own.

2. Only if ATC modifies your clearance with radar contact and a vector off the DP.
 
skidoo said:
This question relates to those DP's typically with high terrain nearby and using 8S1 as the example. The departure procedure is Angil One, and requires climbing northbound and then climbing in a hold for 10,000 msl before heading on course. Departure field is about 3,000 ft.


So here is the scenerio for the question. Say, the entire valley area has a ceiling of 1600 ft, and all other weather information available indicates that it is only 500 to 1500 ft thick. It is clear and sunny virtually everywhere else, including on course and destination. In this area, ATC can not be reached by radio until at least 7500 ft, and there is no assurance of that until 10 to 13Kft. So, an IFR clearance can not be obtained in the air before reaching any imc.

Assuming ATC provides a clearance on the ground something like as follows:

Cleared to destination as filed via Angil one DP, climb and maintain 14,000. The on course heading is South.

Now, If I were to take off RWY 36 and follow the Angil One DP heading northbound, I enter IMC a couple minutes after take off, and break out on top at 5500 ft, but before reaching TEPSE. I can see there are no more clouds above and bright sunshine and 100 mile visibility on top.

My questions are:

1) Do I have to continue with the DP and fly north to the hold pattern until reaching 10000, or can I abandon the DP and turn south in VFR conditions while climbing until I can contact ATC?


2) With the clearance given, if I have to continue with the DP until in contact with ATC, is there a way to request the clearance that would allow such abandoning the DP after reaching VFR conditions and prior to being able to contact ATC?
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Angil One is an ODP. Do they usually include it in a clearance out of 8S1?

Some locations ODPs are part of the clearance. Most places not. When it's not part of your clearance and you are not Part 135 it's your choice to fly the ODP or roll your own terrain clearance (with due caution, of course).
 
A terrific question! I think any ODP given is for traffic, so you're stuck (Q #1). If you simply file via an airway or direct to your first checkpoint, and are cleared so, you can do as much of the ODP as you please (Q #2).

dtuuri
 
I agree with Wally and the others who said that if it's in your clearance, you must fly it. Only if they do not include it in the clearance is it optional, although ATC is still separate all other traffic from it on the chance you will fly it.
 
aterpster said:
Angil One is an ODP. Do they usually include it in a clearance out of 8S1?

Some locations ODPs are part of the clearance. Most places not. When it's not part of your clearance and you are not Part 135 it's your choice to fly the ODP or roll your own terrain clearance (with due caution, of course).
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I don't know if it is commonly included. I have only got a clearance on the ground once before, and it did not include the odp. So, it sounds like if it is included in the clearance, I must fly it, and if not, it is my choice.

I was just wondering in such a scenario, what my options were. Great answers. Thanks!
 
roncachamp said:
Have you tried going through the Lakeside RCO?
Click to expand...

No... I suppose that is something I should verify ability to use... If that could get me ATC coms down low, that could come in handy sometime...
 
I have a related question and my apologies to skidoo if it is seen as hijacking.
Departing my home airport (0A9) the Appalachian mountain ridges run just South of the airport. I am in contact with ATC on climbout. Typically ATC clears on course by about 3,500 msl. When on course heading is South, my planes performance requires a climb runway heading (West) through at least 6,000 msl before turning South for terrain clearance.
From experience, ATC does not seem to like when I insert an intersection to facilitate the climb runway heading through 6,000. Also, ATC sounds like I am making an unnecessary request when after cleared on course I "request runway heading through 6 vector for climb".
Of note, the departure procedure only mandates a climb through 3,300 before proceeding on course. Also, in the case of my plane, I can typically maintain 1,000 fpm climb through requested enroute altitude.
What is the best or proper manner to convey my intent to climb runway heading through 6 on departure? Put it in the comments section and forget about it? I have not tried that yet.
 
I agree with the advice given above. A separate issue involves if the aircraft is equipped to fly this RNAV ODP. For example, a KLN94 would not qualify. A related set of questions are when can ATC issue the ODP, and what type of flightplan (ICAO or US) must used, and what the pilot must have filed in their flightplan to qualify for this clearance.
 
If you want to fly IFR then you need to fly the clearance or get it amended. If you want to fly VFR then you need the visibility required.

In your example just take the clearance and when you pop out and want to fly visually just cancel. You can always cancel. Change the squak code to 1200 works just fine. Of course I would try to do it on the radio, but if unable 1200 gets you out of the system too.
 
Captain said:
In your example just take the clearance and when you pop out and want to fly visually just cancel. You can always cancel. Change the squak code to 1200 works just fine. Of course I would try to do it on the radio, but if unable 1200 gets you out of the system too.
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In the Twilight Zone, perhaps.
 
Captain said:
If you want to fly IFR then you need to fly the clearance or get it amended. If you want to fly VFR then you need the visibility required.

In your example just take the clearance and when you pop out and want to fly visually just cancel. You can always cancel. Change the squak code to 1200 works just fine. Of course I would try to do it on the radio, but if unable 1200 gets you out of the system too.
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Never really thought about this, but can you change your transponder code from a descrete assigned number given to you by ATC, to 1200 without informing or getting ATC permission?
 
It's a second option. My first method to cancel would be the radio. But if that's not an option then squaking 1200 works.

Example.

I was flying to APF from Jamacia. Letting down into APF there was a lot of weather just North of the field and inland but over the gulf was clear. I had the FO request vectors over the gulf. ATC said unable and turn to 030 (right into the soup) for vectors behind 4 or 5 other planes. Then she got busy with other planes and we couldn't get a word in. We were closing the clouds and we needed a turn now to stay VFR if that's what we were going to do.

So, unable to get my cancelation in over the radio I had the FO squak 1200 and we turned out over the water. We stayed on freq and eventually ATC got a break and she came to us to confirm we canceled. We said, "yes" and she said "good day".

The turn over the water worked great as it put us on a perfect downwind and tower cleared us to land in front of all those IFR planes getting vectored. Saved 15 minutes of flight and more importantly kept us out of the crap.

I could give more examples, but the point is, if the radio isn't an option for some reason squaking 1200 IS a way to cancel IFR. Of course you need to be in appropriate airspace and have the visibility.
 
Captain said:
It's a second option. My first method to cancel would be the radio. But if that's not an option then squaking 1200 works.
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The question I have is, since ATC assigned you that code, could it be a possible pilot deviation?
 
ChrisK said:
The question I have is, since ATC assigned you that code, could it be a possible pilot deviation?
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Well at the very least they're going to be ticked off because they're still closing the airspace awaiting the aircraft's departure. Not to mention if you cancel without getting a hold ATC, 30 mins after your void time they'll be initiating SAR procedures.
 
douglas393 said:
Never really thought about this, but can you change your transponder code from a descrete assigned number given to you by ATC, to 1200 without informing or getting ATC permission?
Click to expand...

Only if you didn't maintain your transponder IAW FAR 91.413, but then you'd have violated that regulation by operating the transponder.

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
 
roncachamp said:
Only if you didn't maintain your transponder IAW FAR 91.413, but then you'd have violated that regulation by operating the transponder.

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
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Not sure this answers my question. Captain suggests that it is okay to change your transponder to 1200 from an assigned code without informing or being told by ATC to do this.
If you want to fly IFR then you need to fly the clearance or get it amended. If you want to fly VFR then you need the visibility required.

In your example just take the clearance and when you pop out and want to fly visually just cancel. You can always cancel. Change the squak code to 1200 works just fine. Of course I would try to do it on the radio, but if unable 1200 gets you out of the system too.
Click to expand...
It's a second option. My first method to cancel would be the radio. But if that's not an option then squaking 1200 works.

Example.

I was flying to APF from Jamacia. Letting down into APF there was a lot of weather just North of the field and inland but over the gulf was clear. I had the FO request vectors over the gulf. ATC said unable and turn to 030 (right into the soup) for vectors behind 4 or 5 other planes. Then she got busy with other planes and we couldn't get a word in. We were closing the clouds and we needed a turn now to stay VFR if that's what we were going to do.

So, unable to get my cancelation in over the radio I had the FO squak 1200 and we turned out over the water. We stayed on freq and eventually ATC got a break and she came to us to confirm we canceled. We said, "yes" and she said "good day".

The turn over the water worked great as it put us on a perfect downwind and tower cleared us to land in front of all those IFR planes getting vectored. Saved 15 minutes of flight and more importantly kept us out of the crap.

I could give more examples, but the point is, if the radio isn't an option for some reason squaking 1200 IS a way to cancel IFR. Of course you need to be in appropriate airspace and have the visibility.
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Certainly in controlled space where a discrete code is mandatory this should not be done. However, how about in uncontrolled airspace, or in controlled airspace not requiring an assigned code?
 
douglas393 said:
Not sure this answers my question. Captain suggests that it is okay to change your transponder to 1200 from an assigned code without informing or being told by ATC to do this.
Click to expand...

He's wrong.

Certainly in controlled space where a discrete code is mandatory this should not be done. However, how about in uncontrolled airspace, or in controlled airspace not requiring an assigned code?
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In uncontrolled airspace you won't interact with ATC.

FAR 91.215(c) applies in all controlled airspace. Unless you file an equipment suffix that indicates no transponder you'll be assigned a beacon code by ATC as part of your clearance.
 
roncachamp said:
In uncontrolled airspace you won't interact with ATC.
Click to expand...

Ya might want to check that. I frequently talk to ATC in uncontrolled airspace. Last time I checked, talking is a form of interaction...

Of course you're correct about the transponder - "Captain" is mistaking a communication failure for something else.
 
FORANE said:
I have a related question and my apologies to skidoo if it is seen as hijacking.
Departing my home airport (0A9) the Appalachian mountain ridges run just South of the airport. I am in contact with ATC on climbout. Typically ATC clears on course by about 3,500 msl. When on course heading is South, my planes performance requires a climb runway heading (West) through at least 6,000 msl before turning South for terrain clearance.
From experience, ATC does not seem to like when I insert an intersection to facilitate the climb runway heading through 6,000. Also, ATC sounds like I am making an unnecessary request when after cleared on course I "request runway heading through 6 vector for climb".
Of note, the departure procedure only mandates a climb through 3,300 before proceeding on course. Also, in the case of my plane, I can typically maintain 1,000 fpm climb through requested enroute altitude.
What is the best or proper manner to convey my intent to climb runway heading through 6 on departure? Put it in the comments section and forget about it? I have not tried that yet.
Click to expand...
So we're all on the same page, here's the ODP from 0A9:

ELIZABETHTON, TN​
ELIZABETHTON MUNI (0A9)
ORIG 07186 (FAA)​
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS:​
​
Rwy 6, NA-obstacles. Rwy 24,​

600-2 w/ min. climb of 380' per NM to 7000 or 3500-3 for
climb in visual conditions.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:​
​
Rwy 24, climb heading
244° to 3300 before proceeding on course. For climb in
visual conditions cross Elizabethton Muni Airport at or​

above 4900 before proceeding on course.
Click to expand...
So, you take off on 24, start your climb, and at 3500 ATC says "turn south". Since you've passed 3300 MSL, per the ODP you are no longer restricted to heading 244, and you can comply with the turn, but per the takeoff minimums, you must maintain a climb gradient of 380 ft/nm to 7000 in order to assure obstruction clearance. While you can ask to maintain runway heading to 6000 for whatever reason you have, I see no requirement based on the ODP/takeoff mins to do that. If you cannot maintain 380 ft/nm all the way to 7000 MSL, you should not be climbing on runway heading initially, but rather be climbing visually over the airport to 4900 MSL before proceeding away from the airport.
 
Clark1961 said:
Ya might want to check that. I frequently talk to ATC in uncontrolled airspace. Last time I checked, talking is a form of interaction...

Of course you're correct about the transponder - "Captain" is mistaking a communication failure for something else.
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Thanks, that what I thought was the case, but Captain's remarks got me thinking maybe I was once again missing something. I also speak to ATC on occassion in uncontrolled air space.
 
douglas393 said:
Never really thought about this, but can you change your transponder code from a descrete assigned number given to you by ATC, to 1200 without informing or getting ATC permission?
Click to expand...
Easy -- you push the VFR button on your Garmin. :D

Seriously, I would not do that without coordinating that with ATC unless I was unable to talk to them (frequency congestion, loss of signal, whatever) and was using that squawk change to convey my message of "Cancel IFR/flight following" to ATC.
 
roncachamp said:
Only if you didn't maintain your transponder IAW FAR 91.413, but then you'd have violated that regulation by operating the transponder.

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
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As it says in red -- if you're cancelling IFR or flight following, then 1200 is now the appropriate code.

In any event, I've never heard of a controller getting upset with someone for doing this as a means of communicating intent of cancellation when voice comm was unavailing.
 
Ron Levy said:
As it says in red -- if you're cancelling IFR or flight following, then 1200 is now the appropriate code.

In any event, I've never heard of a controller getting upset with someone for doing this as a means of communicating intent of cancellation when voice comm was unavailing.
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This is interesting. I'm going to talk to my CFI-I about this. Thanks!
roncachamp said:
What do you talk about? Sports? Politics?
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I've heard controllers offer tips on where to eat. Maybe it was that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Easy -- you push the VFR button on your Garmin. :D

Seriously, I would not do that without coordinating that with ATC unless I was unable to talk to them (frequency congestion, loss of signal, whatever) and was using that squawk change to convey my message of "Cancel IFR/flight following" to ATC.
Click to expand...

That message is not conveyed by using that squawk change. If it was, a pilot that accidentally pushed the VFR button on his Garmin while in IMC would be in violation of FAR 91.155.
 
Pretty sure I was upfront that just changing my code to 1200 was a last resort...comm failure / congestion.

In my example it was congestion. What's the alternative? I'm REQUIRED to fly into crap weather even though I'm now VFR and in class E? Of course not, as PIC I can cancel at any time it's legal (cloud clearance, airspace, OpSpec).

There is no loss of separation because once I'm VFR then ATC has washed their hands of providing separation. Again, the preferred method is the radio, but I'm not flying into crap Wx when a simple change to VFR will fix the issue.

Besides, the method of canceling IFR is sort of a side issue. The OP wanted to know if he had to fly the whole DP even though he's above the clouds. My answer is yes, unless you ammend the clearance or cancel IFR. Maybe another thread could be devoted to how to cancel.
 
Ron Levy said:
As it says in red -- if you're cancelling IFR or flight following, then 1200 is now the appropriate code.
Click to expand...

Yes, once you've cancelled.

In any event, I've never heard of a controller getting upset with someone for doing this as a means of communicating intent of cancellation when voice comm was unavailing.
Click to expand...

Changing to 1200 does not by itself cancel an IFR clearance.
 
roncachamp said:
That message is not conveyed by using that squawk change. If it was, a pilot that accidentally pushed the VFR button on his Garmin while in IMC would be in violation of FAR 91.155.
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Agreed, but my experience tells me the average controller is smart enough to figure out which you're trying to tell them, and query you ASAP if it doesn't look right. Also, pilots generally are aware they hit the wrong button when aiming for IDENT and hitting VFR, and immediately hit it again to return to the original code. In any event, as I said, I've never heard of a controller making an issue of this when that button was hit accidentally (other than inside the DC SFRA, where the USAF Air Defense Sector's alarms go off when it happens).
 
Ron Levy said:
Dunno 'bout Clark, but I'm usually talking to them about things like cancelling IFR, or going missed approach, or getting a clearance, but sometimes just giving them a weather report.
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Sounds like you were in controlled airspace.
 
Captain said:
Pretty sure I was upfront that just changing my code to 1200 was a last resort...comm failure / congestion.

In my example it was congestion. What's the alternative? I'm REQUIRED to fly into crap weather even though I'm now VFR and in class E? Of course not, as PIC I can cancel at any time it's legal (cloud clearance, airspace, OpSpec).

There is no loss of separation because once I'm VFR then ATC has washed their hands of providing separation. Again, the preferred method is the radio, but I'm not flying into crap Wx when a simple change to VFR will fix the issue.

Besides, the method of canceling IFR is sort of a side issue. The OP wanted to know if he had to fly the whole DP even though he's above the clouds. My answer is yes, unless you ammend the clearance or cancel IFR. Maybe another thread could be devoted to how to cancel.
Click to expand...

Just changing the code to 1200 does not cancel an IFR clearance under any conditions.
 
roncachamp said:
Just changing the code to 1200 does not cancel an IFR clearance under any conditions.
Click to expand...
It is a good point, though, that it is a way of conveying meaning and intentions though should not be used as a convenience to the pilot. It should probably be reserved when there is no other option and - as in Captain's example - maintaining IFR would actually be detrimental.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but my experience tells me the average controller is smart enough to figure out which you're trying to tell them, and query you ASAP if it doesn't look right.
Click to expand...

And in response to that query the pilot will likely say he's cancelling IFR.

Also, pilots generally are aware they hit the wrong button when aiming for IDENT and hitting VFR, and immediately hit it again to return to the original code.
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Not all accidental hits are preceded by an instruction to IDENT. I've had pilots completely unaware they were squawking VFR until I told them so.
 
Squaking 1200 to cancel an IFR clearance is a poor practice. It assumes the the contoller recieved the squak change and there is no way to confirm receipt of the cancellation.
 
I think a distinction should be made between arriving and departing IFR.

If you're arriving and already been cleared for the approach but haven't relayed cancelation yet, yeah sqk VFR but you're still gonna need to relay it verbally at some point. If I was on position and saw 1200 I still wouldn't treat it as a confirmation of canceling because it didn't come from the pilot. Could be an accident button push on the pilot or some anomaly showing a VFR code. In that case keep the airport close to other IFRs until you get confirmation on the ground by other FSS, ATC, other pilots, FBO etc. In that situation it's not a big deal.

Departing can be big deal. If you depart and can't get a hold of ATC there's no confirmation of where you are. They may or may not see your VFR code once you switch over your sqk. If you just cruise on with an inop radio or anticipating getting a hold of ATC but can't, the airport is still closed and now they're going to start looking for you 30 mins after void. Best just to continue with your assigned DP until contact with ATC then cancel if you wish. If you can't contact them, stick with lost commo procedures. If VFR, go back and land to sort your commo problem out.
 
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roncachamp said:
What do you talk about? Sports? Politics?
Click to expand...

Usually it's a frequency change and then maybe airport in sight, cancel flight following, sometimes it's request flight following, aircraft type, destination, beacon code...things of that nature...once or twice we even talked about the weather...

Lot's of class G airspace out this way and those nice folks with ATC will still talk to me when I'm in it. Most truly amazing.
 
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