Another "how do I log this" question

G-Man

G-Man

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Did a wonderful cross-country practice flight yesterday and want to confirm how to log this. It can all be logged as cross-country time, but distance doesn't exceed the leg length? Circular flight to tag a bunch of airports in North East Colorado. Absolutely gorgeous day and flight.

All legs are straight-line. I did not count detouring around Bravo, or a side trip to 'go look at something' but not touching down.

Flight legs were:
1. 95nm, full stop and fuel.
2. 48nm.
3. 24nm.
4. 28nm, full stop and fuel.
5. 22nm.
6. 41nm, full stop, no fuel.
7. 74nm.

Total Hobbs time 5.1 hours (Cessna 152). Non-full stops were land and taxi back.

So, 5.1 hours cross-country time with two legs of more than 50nm? Thanks!
 
G-Man said:
Did a wonderful cross-country practice flight yesterday and want to confirm how to log this. It can all be logged as cross-country time, but distance doesn't exceed the leg length? Circular flight to tag a bunch of airports in North East Colorado. Absolutely gorgeous day and flight.

All legs are straight-line. I did not count detouring around Bravo, or a side trip to 'go look at something' but not touching down.

Flight legs were:
1. 95nm, full stop and fuel.
2. 48nm.
3. 24nm.
4. 28nm, full stop and fuel.
5. 22nm.
6. 41nm, full stop, no fuel.
7. 74nm.

Total Hobbs time 5.1 hours (Cessna 152). Non-full stops were land and taxi back.

So, 5.1 hours cross-country time with two legs of more than 50nm? Thanks!
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Why are you concerned about leg length? Is there some special requirement you are trying to meet that requires certain length legs?
 
Hi Mark,
Legs only matter if I can't log the aggregate time, and can only log the legs with 50-plus nm straight-line distance.
Hi Jordane93,
I'm not actively working towards anything right now, but plan to get my IFR and Commercial. So, aware of those requirements.
Thanks!
 
G-Man said:
Hi Mark,
Legs only matter if I can't log the aggregate time, and can only log the legs with 50-plus nm straight-line distance.
Hi Jordane93,
I'm not actively working towards anything right now, but plan to get my IFR and Commercial. So, aware of those requirements.
Thanks!
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You could log the whole thing as XC but if you plan on getting those ratings, you'll have to subtract the time on the legs that were less than 50 miles. Personally I don't log the flight as XC unless it's 50 miles. Just makes it easier if you ever want to get a new rating.
 
Would 5.1 hours encompass the entire flight time from the first airport until the last one?

How long did you stop for?

Be sure to subtract out the time you weren't actually flying. 5.1 hours is a long time in the plane.

If you stopped and fueled up and spent a total of an hour fueling up (2 stops) plus time using the facilities, chatting, etc (aka NOT flying) you're actual flight time might be less.
 
Caramon13 said:
Would 5.1 hours encompass the entire flight time from the first airport until the last one?

How long did you stop for?

Be sure to subtract out the time you weren't actually flying. 5.1 hours is a long time in the plane.

If you stopped and fueled up and spent a total of an hour fueling up (2 stops) plus time using the facilities, chatting, etc (aka NOT flying) you're actual flight time might be less.
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:confused: I don't know anyone who would count the time the engine isn't running as flight time
 
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5.1 hours is the time on the Hobbs meter. Tach time was 4.X. Total elapsed time was 6.3 hours. Stops were short - fuel, bathroom, check weather, blast off. All but originating airport are rural and I only encountered one other plane the whole time, so zero ground delays.

Here's the route during flight planning the day before. Originating airport is KBJC Rocky Mountain Metro/Jeffco in Colorado. The doglegs north at the start/finish are to avoid Bravo. I counted only straight-line measurements.
 

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G-Man said:
5.1 hours is the time on the Hobbs meter. Tach time was 4.X. Total elapsed time was 6.3 hours. Stops were short - fuel, bathroom, check weather, blast off. All but originating airport are rural and I only encountered one other plane the whole time, so zero ground delays.

Here's the route during flight planning the day before. Originating airport is KBJC Rocky Mountain Metro/Jeffco in Colorado. The doglegs north at the start/finish are to avoid Bravo. I counted only straight-line measurements.
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Nice! Just log the whole thing 5.1 ASEL (assuming this was single engine), 5.1 PIC, 5.1 XC, 5.1 Total time, 4 landings all on one line. Why break it up?

Only time I break up legs when I log them is if I'm out of the plane for more than an hour.
 
14 CFR Part 61, section 1.b.3 (3) " Cross-country time means--"

ii "For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--

Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."



Your flight included a point of landing that was more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure. The entire flight is a "long" cross-country flight for this reason.

The purpose of this requirement is to get you out of your comfort zone as you seek more advanced ratings. And clearly, that's what you did.
 
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Cross-country time requires a point of landing that is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure to be logged. Doesn't say that the legs have to be over 50 to count toward that time.

If its is for a rating, then certain other things have to be meet. For example for private pilot solo:
it must be over 150 nm in length
one segment must be over 50 nm from T/O to Landing

In my book it would have the 5.1 hours cross country and a list of what airports I landed at. Unless you left the master on while refueling the time spent fueling shouldn't matter.
 
jordane93 said:
You could log the whole thing as XC but if you plan on getting those ratings, you'll have to subtract the time on the legs that were less than 50 miles. Personally I don't log the flight as XC unless it's 50 miles. Just makes it easier if you ever want to get a new rating.
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Say what?!

Please explain the need to subtract the legs <50nm
 
Plain and simple. You only log XC time if it was over 50nm straight line.
So the 95nm leg and the 74nm legs are the only ones that can be logged as XC time. So if it was 5.1 total you can log 2.0 for example under the XC heading for how long those legs were total.
 
Islandhopper said:
Plain and simple. You only log XC time if it was over 50nm straight line.
So the 95nm leg and the 74nm legs are the only ones that can be logged as XC time. So if it was 5.1 total you can log 2.0 for example under the XC heading for how long those legs were total.
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What?!

Cross-country time requires a point of landing that is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure to be logged. Doesn't matter how many places you land at before and after and how far away they are as long as one point is over 50 miles from the origin and its all part of one flight. Now he could break it up into 2 flights because of the fuel stop, but they would still be 2 cross country flights; unless his legs aren't straight lines.
 
Islandhopper said:
Plain and simple. You only log XC time if it was over 50nm straight line.
So the 95nm leg and the 74nm legs are the only ones that can be logged as XC time. So if it was 5.1 total you can log 2.0 for example under the XC heading for how long those legs were total.
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Incorrect.

Refer to the CFR that I posted above.
 
One of these General Counsel rulings should apply; read all three.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...l_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/in terps/2009/Hilliard.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2009/Van Zanen.pdf

In short:
1) Unless the aircraft requires more than one pilot for the ENTIRE flight then only one pilot can log cross country time and only if he or she is the sole manipulator for the ENTIRE flight.
2) A repositioning flight is acceptable to allow the pilot to setup a subsequent flight as a cross country flight.

Bob Gardner
 
Islandhopper said:
Plain and simple. You only log XC time if it was over 50nm straight line.
So the 95nm leg and the 74nm legs are the only ones that can be logged as XC time. So if it was 5.1 total you can log 2.0 for example under the XC heading for how long those legs were total.
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You are dumb.

Stop giving advice.
 
On the bright side, I think Islandhopper has a LOT more time cross country to put in their logbook then they probably think they do :)
 
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I'd log all of them as XC time. You can put them all on one line or split them up.

The spirit of the rule is to get you experience outside of your local comfort zone. Talking to different controllers, finding new landmarks, more comprehensive weather planning, etc etc. It's reasonable to see you did just that.
 
JoeSelch said:
Say what?!

Please explain the need to subtract the legs <50nm
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In furtherance of a rating. You would have to fly more than 50 miles to log is as a cross country. Could you legally log it as a cross country? Sure. If he is looking to build PIC X country time towards the IR or commercial the legs have to be at least 50 miles.
 
G-Man said:
Hi Mark,
Legs only matter if I can't log the aggregate time, and can only log the legs with 50-plus nm straight-line distance.
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Yeah, but where is there a rule that says you can only log legs with 50-plus nm straight-line distance?

(Hint- there isn't one)
 
jordane93 said:
In furtherance of a rating. You would have to fly more than 50 miles to log is as a cross country. Could you legally log it as a cross country? Sure. If he is looking to build PIC X country time towards the IR or commercial the legs have to be at least 50 miles.
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They do not.

Read the regs. See what it says, not what you think it says.

The closest what you think it says are the "long" solo cross countries for the private and commercial certificate. For example, the 91.109 long solo cross country requires "one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations." IOW, on the long cross country, there needs to be one 50+ NM leg. The rest can be 1 NM if he could find airports that close to each other.

Even for that purpose, the OP's whole 5.1 hours would qualify.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
They do not.

Read the regs. See what it says, not what you think it says.

The closest what you think it says are the "long" solo cross countries for the private and commercial certificate. For example, the 91.109 long solo cross country requires "one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations." IOW, on the long cross country, there needs to be one 50+ NM leg. The rest can be 1 NM if he could find airports that close to each other.

Even for that purpose, the OP's whole 5.1 hours would qualify.
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To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft and powered parachute category rating) for a private certificate, a commercial certificate, instrument rating, or for the purposes of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under 61.101(c), cross-country time requires a point of landing that is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)

I'm not really understanding this.
 
Islandhopper said:
Plain and simple. You only log XC time if it was over 50nm straight line.
So the 95nm leg and the 74nm legs are the only ones that can be logged as XC time. So if it was 5.1 total you can log 2.0 for example under the XC heading for how long those legs were total.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Well that is not true.
 
jordane93 said:
To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft and powered parachute category rating) for a private certificate, a commercial certificate, instrument rating, or for the purposes of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under 61.101(c), cross-country time requires a point of landing that is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)

I'm not really understanding this.
Click to expand...

The key word here is "original". You can make as many legs as you want in any length you want as lon as one of the airports is more than 50 miles from the airport you started the day at. And it doesn't even have to be on the same day as long as it is part of the same trip.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Nick. Knock that crap off.
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Greg - keep in mind, regurgitating "fact" because a CFI told you it was "fact" is not only dangerous, but it leads to proliferation of said "fact."

Was my post harsh? Yes. Was it necessary? Probably, if it will make even one person actually think before spewing out things like "hurr, I heard dat you can get certificut action take against ya fer enterin' an MOA when its hot!"

There are interpretations, and there are regurgitations. Dollars to donuts this idiot was once told that is the case, and is here trying to influence young minds to follow his CFI's guidance.

Or worse, he's a CFI himself.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
The key word here is "original". You can make as many legs as you want in any length you want as lon as one of the airports is more than 50 miles from the airport you started the day at. And it doesn't even have to be on the same day as long as it is part of the same trip.
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That makes sense now. Thanks!
 
Thanks, all! Appreciate the info and discussion, and glad to see my beliefs validated. If I put together pix and video, I'll post a link. It was a wonderful flight, but not too much to see.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
The key word here is "original". You can make as many legs as you want in any length you want as lon as one of the airports is more than 50 miles from the airport you started the day at. And it doesn't even have to be on the same day as long as it is part of the same trip.
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Not exactly. ;)
 

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MikeELP said:
Not exactly. ;)
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True. But potentially confusing.

The key language is

To meet the requirements (except rotorcraft and powered parachute category rating) for a private certificate, a commercial certificate, instrument rating, or for the purposes of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under 61.101(c), cross-country time requires a point of landing that is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)

One point of landing more than 50 NM from the original point of departure.

What it tells us is that so long as there is at least one landing more than 50 NM from the original departure point, the entire flight may be considered one cross country flight. To use the original scenario, once the flight landed 93 NM from where the flight started, the entire flight became a loggable cross country. In fact, if that location was in the middle of the flight and all the other legs were 1 NM long, it would still be a loggable cross country.

What Mike is referring to is the "original point of departure" language.

On a flight to a distant airport for a three day weekend, your home base is the "original point of departure outbound" and the distant airport typically the original point of departure for the flight home. On the typical round robin cross country, it's usually your home base. But it doesn't have to be.

The FAA is on record saying that what a pilot decides to consider to be a single "flight" for cross country purposes and what is the "original point of departure" is (within reason anyway) up to the pilot.

For example, to use Colorado, a flight from Boulder to Greeley would not be considered a loggable cross country toward a certificate or rating (less than 50 NM). But, go to Centennial first, treat the KBDU-KAPA flight as a separate ("repositioning" to use the FAA's term) flight, treat KAPA as the "original point of departure" for a new flight, and the KAPA-KGXY-KBDU flight (without the KBDU-KAPA leg) is a loggable cross country.
 
SkyHog said:
Greg - keep in mind, regurgitating "fact" because a CFI told you it was "fact" is not only dangerous, but it leads to proliferation of said "fact."

Was my post harsh? Yes. Was it necessary? Probably, if it will make even one person actually think before spewing out things like "hurr, I heard dat you can get certificut action take against ya fer enterin' an MOA when its hot!"

There are interpretations, and there are regurgitations. Dollars to donuts this idiot was once told that is the case, and is here trying to influence young minds to follow his CFI's guidance.

Or worse, he's a CFI himself.
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Nick, it wasn't the idea behind your post that Greg was taking about, it was your delivery. You wrote...
SkyHog said:
You are dumb.

Stop giving advice.
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"You are dumb" is considered to be a personal attack around here. If you had written, "your idea is dumb" it would not have been. You have done it again in this post, by calling the poster an idiot...

I am posting this publicly so that maybe other participants will get the idea of what the MC considers acceptable and what we do not.
 
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SkyHog said:
You are dumb.

Stop giving advice.
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No need to be rude or harsh. I simply was saying if his only two legs that were over 50nm had a stop at each those were the only XC flights. Sorry if I didn't read OPs flights clear enough. I used the "2.0" as an example. I didn't actually calculate what 95nm and 74 are in a C150..

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a flight is not over 50nm straight line with a landing at the end then it ISN't XC time. What you want to log and what is real XC times are probably two different things though.
 
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Islandhopper said:
No need to be rude or harsh. I simply was saying if his only two legs that were over 50nm had a stop at each those were the only XC flights. Sorry if I didn't read OPs original post clear enough. I used the "2.0" as an example. I didn't actually calculate what 95nm and 74 are in a C150..

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a flight is not over 50nm straight line with a landing at the end then it ISN't XC time.
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You are wrong.

So I'll be nice here instead: If you depart an airport, fly 5nm to another, then 10nm to another, then 53nm to the third, then 8nm to the 4th, and 6nm back home, the entire 5 leg flight is cross country. No where does 14CFR require that each leg be independently validated against the cross country requirements, only that a leg of your flight must qualify.

My "You are dumb" comment was simply to keep one of two bad things from happening:

1. Someone reads what you wrote, believes it, and then goes out and convinces others that it is true, thereby spreading misinformation (a la "No slips with full flaps in a Cessna!!"
2. Someone decides they want to write a letter to the FAA for clarification, and suddenly what is a pretty clear read becomes reinterpreted by the idiots at the FAA (I can call them idiots, right?) who decide that Cross Country time can only be logged if you flew with your right hand on the throttle, and your left hand on your knee.

In other words - if you're not sure that you're right, you should preface your post with "I might be wrong, but..." otherwise, you're part of the problem, and you should stop giving advice.
 
SkyHog said:
You are wrong.

So I'll be nice here instead: If you depart an airport, fly 5nm to another, then 10nm to another, then 53nm to the third, then 8nm to the 4th, and 6nm back home, the entire 5 leg flight is cross country. No where does 14CFR require that each leg be independently validated against the cross country requirements, only that a leg of your flight must qualify.

My "You are dumb" comment was simply to keep one of two bad things from happening:

1. Someone reads what you wrote, believes it, and then goes out and convinces others that it is true, thereby spreading misinformation (a la "No slips with full flaps in a Cessna!!"
2. Someone decides they want to write a letter to the FAA for clarification, and suddenly what is a pretty clear read becomes reinterpreted by the idiots at the FAA (I can call them idiots, right?) who decide that Cross Country time can only be logged if you flew with your right hand on the throttle, and your left hand on your knee.

In other words - if you're not sure that you're right, you should preface your post with "I might be wrong, but..." otherwise, you're part of the problem, and you should stop giving advice.
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OK I guess every CFI I've talked to is wrong as well! I guess it just seems stupid to log XC time just because it is far away from your home airport. Do the touch and goes miraculously make it one continuous flight? Apparently I don't do round robin flights all around with one 51nm leg thrown in there enough! :lol:
 
Islandhopper said:
OK I guess every CFI I've talked to is wrong as well!
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That response solidifies what I said earlier. CFIs are not gods, and get an awful lot wrong. They are humans, and as such, are likely regurgitating something they heard from their CFI. Those CFIs then touch hundreds of students, passing along bad information to each, some of which become CFIs who touch hundreds of students....so on.

That is why it is so important to read the regs before interpreting them, rather than relying on something you were told.

The reg in question - 61.1(b)(3)(ii): (emphasis below mine)

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

I guess it just seems stupid to log XC time just because it is far away from your home airport. Do the touch and goes miraculously make it one continuous flight? Apparently I don't do round robin flights all around with one 51nm leg thrown in there enough! :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, if you fly 51nm to another airport, and do 30 T&Gs, then return home, the entire flight, including the T&Gs are cross country.
 
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