Another "Does This Require a Commercial Pilot?" Thread

JoseCuervo said:
We only harvest fresh turnips for turnip soup in a 2 hour window, once a year.


(might be a good idea, but then I am guessing there is some unseen "next shoe".)
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I'm guessing that a thorough understanding of 119.1 would make the "other shoe" visible.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Let's pretend like I have a field of turnips, and there is a high end-restaurant 150 miles away that makes the world's greatest Turnip Soup with the first turnips of the season.

But, the turnips need to be in the soup within 2 hours of being picked to be worthy of this recipe, and to justify the long lines of turnip soup connoisseurs. And it is only good with the first turnips of the season. After that, the opportunity is lost.

Can I contract with them to sell them the 25#s of turnips, and fly them in my personal plane to deliver them for the $3 per pound I charge for turnips? And let the chef know when I am 30 minutes out so he can start boiling the broth.

Can I charge them a thermos full of soup for my delivery fee?

Is all this flying just "incidental" to my turnip growing enterprises?
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This is an incidental business flight. The product being transported is your own, and you could have delivered it over the road. That you could create added benefit to your business through the use of GA is why we have the rules written the way we do.
 
Ron Levy said:
He's still receiving compensation (in the form of free flying time if nothing else), and in that case, you can't be carrying passengers or cargo without a CP ticket. See the Mangiamele letter.
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He's not receiving free flying time, he's paying for every dollar of it. That he make make those dollars from the sale of the turnips is irrelevant, as you pointed out, that is permissible. The FAA makes no mention of where you may earn the money to pay for your flight time. This is a straight up business flight for which all that is required is a PP.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Can I contract with them to sell them the 25#s of turnips, and fly them in my personal plane to deliver them for the $3 per pound I charge for turnips?
...

Can I charge them a thermos full of soup for my delivery fee?

Is all this flying just "incidental" to my turnip growing enterprises?
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Yes, but rutabagas would be more "incidental".

dtuuri
 
JoseCuervo said:
Let's pretend like I have a field of turnips, and there is a high end-restaurant 150 miles away that makes the world's greatest Turnip Soup with the first turnips of the season.

But, the turnips need to be in the soup within 2 hours of being picked to be worthy of this recipe, and to justify the long lines of turnip soup connoisseurs. And it is only good with the first turnips of the season. After that, the opportunity is lost.

Can I contract with them to sell them the 25#s of turnips, and fly them in my personal plane to deliver them for the $3 per pound I charge for turnips? And let the chef know when I am 30 minutes out so he can start boiling the broth.

Can I charge them a thermos full of soup for my delivery fee?

Is all this flying just "incidental" to my turnip growing enterprises?
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Beets me!.

Lettuce see what others think.
 
JoseCuervo said:
We only harvest fresh turnips for turnip soup in a 2 hour window, once a year.


(might be a good idea, but then I am guessing there is some unseen "next shoe".)
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Still very much a planned part of the business and not incidental.

Bigger picture, it's really not that hard to convince a pilot with a commercial rating to go do this... it may only take a thermos of soup.
 
Henning said:
This is an incidental business flight. The product being transported is your own, and you could have delivered it over the road. That you could create added benefit to your business through the use of GA is why we have the rules written the way we do.
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Except the Chief Counsel doesn't agree with Henning's thinking. Transporting product to market isn't "incidental" to the business, it's a "foreseeable and normal part of the business." And whatever Henning or anyone else thinks about the possibility of an Inspector discovering and then caring about it, it's not legal without a CP or ATP, and that is the answer to the question the OP asked.

So if you can't stand the answer, next time...

...don't ask the bloody question.
 
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I have a much better example.

You have a YouTube channel. On that you decide to film yourself doing a flight test and used airplane review of your Cessna 120. You edit it and post it to YouTube. You may or may not receive YouTube compensation from sold ads, depending on how many watch it.

You have not carried cargo, you have not carried people. Is it legal? And if it's not - would it be legal with a CPL but only a 3rd class medical?
 
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I don't remember the exact conversation, but during my ppl oral, the dpe asked me if it was okay, by company request, to transport a co-worker and parts to repair a computer system at another location. I stuck on the safe side and said "no". He said it would be just fine.

I'm not sure it's quite the same as the turnip example, but the pilot is being compensated to fly people and cargo to a location to complete a job.
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly.

No, that is not the same. But if that thought encourages you to upgrade to CP, so be it.

That's not the FAA's problem.

How do you figure that?
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Is there any guidance on what crosses the line in terms of property?
I understand an iPhone is common property but what about these scenarios?
If I'm a computer programmer can I bring a computer with me? Software installation CDs?
How about if I'm a mechanic, can I bring my tools?
If I'm a painter can I bring brushes?

I understand not bringing passengers (co-workers) but where do I cross the line by my self? (This is relevant to my commute by plane thread where it was mentioned a CPL may be needed.)
Thanks and much appreciated!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Ron Levy said:
Except the Chief Counsel doesn't agree with Henning's thinking. Transporting product to market isn't "incidental" to the business, it's a "foreseeable and normal part of the business." And whatever Henning or anyone else thinks about the possibility of an Inspector discovering and then caring about it, it's not legal without a CP or ATP, and that is the answer to the question the OP asked.

So if you can't stand the answer, next time...

...don't ask the bloody question.
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Being a bit pompous again aren't we Ron?.

Last I checked, this was a FORUM where individuals are free to speak on a various topics (within the T&C).

Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Nothing more. You do not represent or speak for the FAA, you have no legal background. You are just another pilot with a CFI, like many here.

lighten-up-francis-o-s_zps14ddf9c1.gif
 
woodchucker said:
I don't remember the exact conversation, but during my ppl oral, the dpe asked me if it was okay, by company request, to transport a co-worker and parts to repair a computer system at another location. I stuck on the safe side and said "no". He said it would be just fine.

I'm not sure it's quite the same as the turnip example, but the pilot is being compensated to fly people and cargo to a location to complete a job.
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Your DPE was clearly wrong.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Being a bit pompous again aren't we Ron?.

Last I checked, this was a FORUM where individuals are free to speak on a various topics (within the T&C).
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True, but I understand where Ron is coming from, since I had the same thought.

Individual comes on the forum to ask a question, phrased as if he does not already know the answer and sincerely wishes to be enlightened.

When some answers don't please him, he immediately begins defending and arguing for a position on the topic. You can see Jose doing this on the first page.

Certainly his right, and a springboard for discussion, but it does bring the motive for asking in the first place into doubt.

But carry on.
 
If I own an airplane and choose to fill it with my own stuff and fly it from point a to point b, how does this require a CPL? I don't see my own stuff as cargo. It would be cargo if someone else owned it. I'm not a lawyer but ppl's could never even transport sales samples in their luggage if everything became cargo by virtue of being put in an airplane.
 
FastEddieB said:
True, but I understand where Ron is coming from, since I had the same thought.

Individual comes on the forum to ask a question, phrased as if he does not already know the answer and sincerely wishes to be enlightened.

When some answers don't please him, he immediately begins defending and arguing for a position on the topic. You can see Jose doing this on the first page.

Certainly his right, and a springboard for discussion, but it does bring the motive for asking in the first place into doubt.

But carry on.
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It's a trolling question to start a debate, nothing more. My God, this topic gets beat to death over these forums. Give it time, another thread will be started on the same topic. :rolleyes2:

As far as Ron, he's not the moderator, merely just another poster. While he may have an over inflated opinion of himself, he's just yet another individual with a personal opinion in the matter, nothing more. :dunno:
 
stratobee said:
I have a much better example.

You have a YouTube channel. On that you decide to film yourself doing a flight test and used airplane review of your Cessna 120. You edit it and post it to YouTube. You may or may not receive YouTube compensation from sold ads, depending on how many watch it.

You have not carried cargo, you have not carried people. Is it legal? And if it's not - would it be legal with a CPL but only a 3rd class medical?
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My guess based on several FAA interpretations (go to their site and search on "incidental") is that they would say that was within PP privileges as long as you're solo when you do it. However, if they did say a CP was necessary, you could not do that with a Third Class medical because if a CP is necessary, you'd be exercising Commercial privileges, and by 61.23, that makes a Second Class medical a requirement in an Airplane.
 
WesternSkyz said:
Is there any guidance on what crosses the line in terms of property?
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No.

I understand an iPhone is common property but what about these scenarios?
If I'm a computer programmer can I bring a computer with me? Software installation CDs?
How about if I'm a mechanic, can I bring my tools?
If I'm a painter can I bring brushes?
I understand not bringing passengers (co-workers) but where do I cross the line by my self?
Click to expand...
My personal guess is that you can take anything you need that is incidental to doing your job, but not anything that won't be going home with you. So, I think all the things you mentioned would be legal. But then again, until the Mangiamele letter came out, I thought you could bring co-workers with you, too.
 
I can't believe JC got as much mileage out of this thread as he did. Bravo!
 
RotorAndWing said:
It's a trolling question to start a debate, nothing more.
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Thank you for recognizing that even if you don't recognize why I gave my suggestion not to ask questions when you can't stand the answer.

If you really want to do something like this, but intend to argue if told it's not legal or assume that you'll never get caught or that you won't get in any significant trouble, then it doesn't really help you to ask if it's legal or not -- ask Mr. Mangiamele about that. For decades people had been doing what he asked about, and nobody in the field cared that it was happening. Then he asks the question, and all of a sudden what folks had been doing all along is known by all to be illegal. OTOH, if nobody had asked the FAA, we'd all still be happily doing it, and no FSDO Inspector would have batted an eyelash over it.

If you want to try to expand the FAA's view of what's legal (e.g., my letters to them about instrument instructors logging approaches flown by their trainees for currency, or instructor practical tests counting for flight reviews), go right ahead. But it behooves none of us to ask the FAA whether what apparently legal things folks are doing and nobody in the FAA seems interested in are actually illegal.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Hauling turnips doesn't fall under the "incidental" exception because the aircraft is carrying property.
Quote:
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
​
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I don't read it that way. Paragraph (2) seems to distinquish what the "aircraft" may be doing, say on behalf of a third party, from the private pilot's relationship with his own business or employment. If the aircraft is not engaged in a flight for hire, the passengers and property are "incidental" under paragraph (1).

dtuuri
 
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hook_dupin said:
Still very much a planned part of the business and not incidental.
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I don't see why similar flights can't have different answers. A flight for one's own business could be incidental, but the same flight as an employee for your neighbor's turnip farm would not.

dtuuri
 
The way I read it, is that you are carrying your own property in your own airplane and nobody is paying you to fly.
You sell your turnips when you get there.
If you worked, as a turnip digger employee of the farm, and the farm wanted you to fly their turnips, then you would need the CPC.
 
I'm going to guess that in the Venn diagram showing the sets 'professional turnip diggers' and 'commercial pilot certificate holders' the area of intersection is quite small. Nobody with the skills to dig turnips would waste their time on a dead-end job like 'pilot'.
 
Ron Levy said:
Except the Chief Counsel doesn't agree with Henning's thinking. Transporting product to market isn't "incidental" to the business, it's a "foreseeable and normal part of the business." And whatever Henning or anyone else thinks about the possibility of an Inspector discovering and then caring about it, it's not legal without a CP or ATP, and that is the answer to the question the OP asked.

So if you can't stand the answer, next time...

...don't ask the bloody question.
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You're contradicting yourself. If the flying transporting of the turnips was not 'incidental', then it would require a 135 certificate which you yourself claim it does not.
 
FastEddieB said:
True, but I understand where Ron is coming from, since I had the same thought.



Individual comes on the forum to ask a question, phrased as if he does not already know the answer and sincerely wishes to be enlightened.



When some answers don't please him, he immediately begins defending and arguing for a position on the topic. You can see Jose doing this on the first page.



Certainly his right, and a springboard for discussion, but it does bring the motive for asking in the first place into doubt.



But carry on.
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Not sure what "displeases" me, but thank you for your long distance insight into my emotional state.....

Based upon some of the answers, it appears that NOTHING can be done by a PPL that has anything to do with their job.

The eye opener is that I can't fly across the state to pickup a part for my broken down turnip harvester that is stuck in the field.

I can't go to the Turnip Growers Association meeting, because that meeting is clearly foreseeable part of my business. And, I can't use my iTurnip with ForeFlight installed, as the iTurnip is paid for by my Turnip Checking Account and has all my contacts of Turnip seed dealers.

I am long resigned to not being able to haul my fresh turnips to be made into turnip soup, but, now appears there is NO flight that can be accomplished .
 
Ron Levy said:
No.

My personal guess is that you can take anything you need that is incidental to doing your job, but not anything that won't be going home with you. So, I think all the things you mentioned would be legal. But then again, until the Mangiamele letter came out, I thought you could bring co-workers with you, too.
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Can you provide any possible scenario that a turnip farmer could use his own airplane in the furtherance of his turnip farm?

It looks like there is zero acceptable uses of a plane for a turnip farmer other than weekend travel to hamburgers.
 
Henning said:
You're contradicting yourself. If the flying transporting of the turnips was not 'incidental', then it would require a 135 certificate which you yourself claim it does not.
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By your interpretation, Amalgamated Widget would need a 135 to haul its executives around in its own planes, and we know that's not true. However, by Mangiamele, Amalgamated's pilots do need CP tickets. Go back and do some research on "incidental" versus ""foreseeable and normal part of the business."
 
JoseCuervo said:
Based upon some of the answers, it appears that NOTHING can be done by a PPL that has anything to do with their job.
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That's not true. Read Mangiamele -- you can certainly fly yourself around to get to places you need to be for the job. But that's about it.

The eye opener is that I can't fly across the state to pickup a part for my broken down turnip harvester that is stuck in the field.
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True.

I can't go to the Turnip Growers Association meeting, because that meeting is clearly foreseeable part of my business.
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Not true. The travel to the meeting is incidental to attending the meeting. However, you can't take anyone with you.

And, I can't use my iTurnip with ForeFlight installed, as the iTurnip is paid for by my Turnip Checking Account and has all my contacts of Turnip seed dealers.
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Now you're just being silly.

I am long resigned to not being able to haul my fresh turnips to be made into turnip soup, but, now appears there is NO flight that can be accomplished .
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Only if you insist on being obtuse.
 
Ron Levy said:
No.

My personal guess is that you can take anything you need that is incidental to doing your job, but not anything that won't be going home with you. So, I think all the things you mentioned would be legal. But then again, until the Mangiamele letter came out, I thought you could bring co-workers with you, too.
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This guy's computer, paint brushes, and toolbox are acceptable, but I can't go fetch a part for a turnip harvester?
 
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