Annual log book entry

brien23

brien23

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91.409 document the annual inspection in each of the respective logbooks for the aircraft, engine, and propeller, while other persons believe the anannual inspection should only be in the maintenance records for the aircraft. A maintenance record entry documenting the completion of an annual inspection is only required for the aircraft logbook. If nothing else the letter has a phone number you can call the FAA and start the ball rolling on anything you need a legal interpretation of 202) 267-3073. FAA Office of the Chief Counsel.
 

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brien23 said:
... while other persons believe the annual inspection should only be in the maintenance records for the aircraft...
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Perhaps change the word "should" to "need" because I don't think anyone believes there is anything wrong with documenting the inspection in engine and/or propeller logbooks just that it is not required. Most people do make entries in all of the books in order to satisfy those who falsely believe that it is required to do so. It's easier that way.
 
Silvaire said:
Perhaps change the word "should" to "need" because I don't think anyone believes there is anything wrong with documenting the inspection in engine and/or propeller logbooks just that it is not required. Most people do make entries in all of the books in order to satisfy those who falsely believe that it is required to do so. It's easier that way.
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Agreed, but....

As far as I can tell, there's no regulatory need to have "logbooks" at all, merely "maintenance records." Those records could be individual sheets of paper in a file cabinet and be perfectly legal, as long as you can produce them when required.
 
"14 CFR 43.11
Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and §§ 135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.

(a) Maintenance record entries.
The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, § 135.411(a)(1), or § 135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment..."

A log entry is required for each record for airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance.
 
NordicDave said:
A log entry is required for each record for airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance.
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FAA Legal says otherwise:

Based on the fact that annual inspections apply​
only to the aircraft under§§ 91.409(a), 43.lS(c) and appendix D to part 43, a person approving​
or disapproving for return to service an aircraft after an annual inspection performed in​
accordance with§ 91.409(a) must make an entry in the maintenance record of "that equipment,"​
i.e. that aircraft, in accordance with 43.1 l(a). Accordingly, only an aircraft is required to receive​
a maintenance record entry documenting the completion of an annual inspection.​
 
The key word is "That equipment". The specific inspection criteria is defined in 43.11 and maintenance in 43.9. Re-read 43.11a which directs A&P's for 100 inspections and IA's for annual inspections. This is way your IA provides 3 logbook stickers for prop, engine, and airframe. Each has its own TCDS.
 
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NordicDave said:
The key word is "That equipment". The specific inspection criteria is defined in 43.11 and maintenance in 43.9. Re-read 43.11a which directs A&P's for 100 inspections and IA's for annual inspections. This is way your IA provides 3 logbook stickers for prop, engine, and airframe.
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The key is how FAA Legal has already interpreted “that equipment.”
 
I've seen "annual inspection" properly recorded in the aircraft log, with the engine log showing a "100 hour" inspection on the same date.

When the aircraft, engine, and tach all have different numbers, having them all totaled and recorded at the same time can make it a lot easier to go back and find an error ("the numbers argeed on this date, so the error is later...").
 
Half Fast said:
FAA Legal says otherwise:

Based on the fact that annual inspections apply​
only to the aircraft under§§ 91.409(a), 43.lS(c) and appendix D to part 43, a person approving​
or disapproving for return to service an aircraft after an annual inspection performed in​
accordance with§ 91.409(a) must make an entry in the maintenance record of "that equipment,"​
i.e. that aircraft, in accordance with 43.1 l(a). Accordingly, only an aircraft is required to receive​
a maintenance record entry documenting the completion of an annual inspection.​
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Interesting thread. During my checkride, my DPE asked how could I determine that the aircraft we would fly that day was airworthy. I pulled out the school's maintenance log for the aircraft and had each annual inspection and 100hr, (and other required items) flagged. The school places the annual in each section: airframe, engine, propeller, and AD's. The DPE was satisfied but he made a mention that the annual inspection only needed to be in the airframe section. That was the first time I heard that and it stuck with me. Thanks for providing the reg.
 
Tai said:
The DPE was satisfied but he made a mention that the annual inspection only needed to be in the airframe section.
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While many (Part 91) aircraft owners have an "airframe log", "engine log", etc., those are arbitrary designations and have no meaning to the FAA. The regs only refer to "maintenance records", which could be written on torn up sheets of paper grocery sacks and kept in a burlap bag if you wanted to...though when it comes time to sell, you will probably find potential buyers won't be impressed by that choice.

Having well-organized maintenance records just makes sense, which is why you typically find them that way. It's not because the FAA specifies that you must keep an "airframe log" separate from an "engine log", or that the regs specify what information goes into each.

Per AC 43-9C:
1745593760141.png
 
If you work on some really old airplanes you will often find that the original single logbook covered not only airframe, engine and propeller but also every flight made.
 
bottom line is there is only a requirement for a record of an annual inspection be kept. there is no regulation of how that record is to be kept. I am only required to make a record. i will put it in any form the owner wants. thats all my certificate requires.
 
This wasn't anything new ten years ago when it was written and even less so now.
There's no requirement that there be separate engine or prop logbooks, but it is often done for convenience.
While you must track specific work done on props and engines, there's no requirement they be separate.
Overall airworthiness including annual inspections apply to the aircraft in total.
 
I fly experimental and have logs for airframe, engine & prop. I realize this is not required but makes it more convenient if I change/sell/replace the prop or engine as to being able to provide logs for them to future users.
 
I have separate airframe and engine logs but no propeller log, it would be kind of silly for a fixed pitch prop of unknown origin on an experimental.
 
I have two Propeller log books for the one propeller because I had a couple of idiot mechanics who didn't realize that the Hartzell Propeller Manual *IS* the freaking logbook (it has pages for such in the back). Some helpful guy started a "new" one for me.
 
flyingron said:
I have two Propeller log books for the one propeller because I had a couple of idiot mechanics who didn't realize that the Hartzell Propeller Manual *IS* the freaking logbook (it has pages for such in the back). Some helpful guy started a "new" one for me.
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Actually, it falls to the owner which specific medium is used to record the mx entry and not the mechanic. So if you wanted it in a specific “logbook” then you should have made that known. The overarching rule is 91.405(b) but there have been several FAA legal LOIs clarifying the owner determines where the mechanic put their logbook entries. As the saying goes, anytime you point a finger at something, there's always 3 fingers pointing back at you.
 
I'd have moved things over to the book, but it was just a "yeah this thing is airworthy for another year" sticker so I decided I didn't need to worry once we got to the next year's inspection.
 
Bell206 said:
Actually, it falls to the owner which specific medium is used to record the mx entry and not the mechanic. So if you wanted it in a specific “logbook” then you should have made that known. The overarching rule is 91.405(b) but there have been several FAA legal LOIs clarifying the owner determines where the mechanic put their logbook entries. As the saying goes, anytime you point a finger at something, there's always 3 fingers pointing back at you.
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So far, I haven’t had an A&P mind signing a sticker and leaving it up to me to put it in the logbook. A couple are even good with me typing up the entries.
 
ateamer said:
So far, I haven’t had an A&P mind signing a sticker and leaving it up to me to put it in the logbook. A couple are even good with me typing up the entries.
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I've known a number of owners who do not realized they control the mx records and will accept whatever a mechanic tells or gives them. Whenever there is an issue its usually because the owner does know this fact but the mechanic does not or will not accept what the owner wants. One of the LOIs addresses this fact head on and basically explains to the requesting mechanic the owner is the Big Kahuna when it comes to the aircraft records.
 
ateamer said:
So far, I haven’t had an A&P mind signing a sticker and leaving it up to me to put it in the logbook. A couple are even good with me typing up the entries.
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In addition, I do NOT give my log books to any A&P or IA. I do supply a PDF of the logs.
 
Half Fast said:
:yeahthat:
With rare exceptions, my logbooks don't leave my house. I provide photocopies or scans when needed.
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We have a few A&P/IA around here that will work with the owners like that, takes them about an hour to complete a annual on a Cessna 310 for $300.
 
brien23 said:
We have a few A&P/IA around here that will work with the owners like that, takes them about an hour to complete a annual on a Cessna 310 for $300.
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Huh. Our A&P/IA signed the stickers that I wrote and printed, and he took two full days or more to do the condition inspection (aka annual) on my RV, and that was with extensive owner-assist.
 
brien23 said:
We have a few A&P/IA around here that will work with the owners like that, takes them about an hour to complete a annual on a Cessna 310 for $300.
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The two things do not relate.

My IA takes a minimum of 34 hours to do the Annual in my Mooney in accordance with the factory Annual/100-hour checklist.

But he is fine with PDF of the logs and provides a sticker for me to put in my records.
 
Pinecone said:
The two things do not relate.

My IA takes a minimum of 34 hours to do the Annual in my Mooney in accordance with the factory Annual/100-hour checklist.

But he is fine with PDF of the logs and provides a sticker for me to put in my records.
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Similar here, though my annual is much quicker since (1) my plane is fixed gear and fixed prop and (2) I do the airplane opening and closing, the oil change, the air filter, spark plugs, etc., as part of owner assist and preventive maintenance.
 
34 hours? Is that every year? Mine might have spent that much the first time, but once he's done all the AD checking all he has to do is make sure I've not added new equipment subsequent.
The actual "inspecting" (laying eyes on the aircraft) on the Navion takes less than 8 hours.
 
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flyingron said:
34 hours? Is that every year? Mine might have spent that much the first time, but once he's done all the AD checking all he has to do is make sure I've not added new equipment subsequent.
The actual "inspecting" (laying eyes on the aircraft) on the Navion takes less than 8 hours.
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Do they check the gear rigging? Controls? Actually clean and lube every location that requires it?

That 34 hours is for the factory Annual/100 hour checklist. Six pages.

Quick, cheap annuals, are IMO the reason that so many first annuals by a new owner at a new shop find so many things wrong and needing to be fixed. But think about it, the previous owner was flying the airplane will all those things wrong.

I have talked to A&P/IA that have done annuals on planes that were painted several years ago and many of the inspection plates have never been removed since then.
 

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Pinecone said:
Do they check the gear rigging? Controls? Actually clean and lube every location that requires it?

That 34 hours is for the factory Annual/100 hour checklist. Six pages.

Quick, cheap annuals, are IMO the reason that so many first annuals by a new owner at a new shop find so many things wrong and needing to be fixed. But think about it, the previous owner was flying the airplane will all those things wrong.

I have talked to A&P/IA that have done annuals on planes that were painted several years ago and many of the inspection plates have never been removed since then.
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The gear rigging takes may 30 minutes. Do not confuse maintenance deferred to the annual with the inspection itself.
Yes the first annual (or the first one with a new mechanic) also finds things, but we're talking about the inspection NOT fixing the defects.
Even your checklist doesn't have much lubing going on, just the cowl flaps, the turbo (if you have one), and some part I presume is part of the gear extension system.
 
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YMMV:

The factory Piper J-2 through PA-16, 25 hour / 100 hour / annual checklist only runs three pages and not every item is checked on each type at each inspection. The factory Schweitzer 1-26 100 hour / annual checklist also runs three pages. But has instructions, notes, lots of white space, and a much larger font. A conscientious IA could perform the first in under 8 hours and the second in two, exclusive of removing and replacing inspection covers and barring the unforeseen.

Nobody, other than the aircraft owner, "needs" to have possession of the original maintenance logbook(s).
 
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Pinecone said:
In addition, I do NOT give my log books to any A&P or IA. I do supply a PDF of the logs.
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Then i would not do your annual. i do not expect to keep them, but i expect to look at the originals to do a log book and AD inspections. if you want to sit there while i do it and take them back after im done, great, but i will not sign my name unless i have seen the originals in the order that they are. its to easy to omit things with a pdf.
 
unsafervguy said:
Then i would not do your annual. i do not expect to keep them, but i expect to look at the originals to do a log book and AD inspections. if you want to sit there while i do it and take them back after im done, great, but i will not sign my name unless i have seen the originals in the order that they are. its to easy to omit things with a pdf.
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Then you would have to stop by my house and I'd show them to you. Otherwise, you're correct - you won't do my annual.
 
Many owners do not realize that they are responsible for the mx on

their aircraft. There are different types of “Annual Inspections” and the

Owner should determine just what they are contracting for.

The Annual Inspection must be done by an IA or a Repair Station.

Servicing and repairs are often done by an A&P or even the owner.

Do not assume it is part of the Annual.


“Routine servicing is NOT a part of the Annual Inspection. The inspection
itself is essentially a visual evaluation of the condition of the aircraft
and its component and certain operational checks. Services are not
considered to be a part of the inspection itself”.


Above is from FAA-G-8082-19, Inspection Authorization information Guide.

So when you deal with an IA you are “ renting his eyes”. Verify what you are

paying for.

Anyone ever hear of “Famous Frank”?
 
Magman said:
Many owners do not realize that they are responsible for the mx on

their aircraft. There are different types of “Annual Inspections” and the

Owner should determine just what they are contracting for.
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Indeed. Much like a "prebuy," there's a universe of possible actions that the mechanic can perform. The regulatory guidance is fairly specific, but an owner does himself a huge disservice by simply saying "My plane needs an annual inspection."
 
And there are the quick and cheap annuals. And then there are annuals that are actually in depth.

Many aircraft have a factory annual or 100 hour inspection form. I have my annuals follow that form.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That’s nice if the plane actually has one of those. Many (Most?) don’t.
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I would check the type's service (or service and erection) manuals. I haven't flown that many types. But every single one that I have has a factory 100-hour inspection checklist. (How else would an IA perform the inspection?)
 
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