Angle, or Vx/Vy on takeoff?

Tools said:
The flight director CALCULATES a pitch… it changes based on “things”.

Or it may pitch to this or that then adjust for “things”.
Click to expand...
Joining the chorus of "not in TOGA on anything I've ever flown". TOGA goes to a pitch angle that varies depending on the aircraft type. I've seen it in the range from 5º to 12.5º nose up.

Now, if you're switching to a different pitch mode, yeah it'll calculate. It's not based on "things" it's based on the pitch mode you're setting.

As far as the OP, 10º may be a good starting point, but you should definitely transition to Vx, Vy, or cruise climb as appropriate. Sometimes you'll even use all three.
 
Boom! said:
Cessna 152. I don't remember what speed 10° gives, but I have a flight tomorrow and will make a note of it.
Click to expand...
I’d absolutely fly an airspeed, but that’s me. 10 degrees may well work as an approximation, but especially in something with a lawnmower engine I wouldn’t make it my rule.
 
Dana said:
In defense of the instructor, she may be saying not so much to pitch to exactly 10°, but to get your eyes outside of the cockpit when close to the ground and establish a pitch attitude that looks right, rather than staring at the instruments and chasing an airspeed number before the airplane has accelerated and climbed out of ground effect. You need to know what a proper climb attitude looks like, without looking at an instrument that may fail. I'm not saying you shouldn't be glancing at the instruments to crosscheck, but it shouldn't be the main way you hold the climb angle. A pitch deviation is immediately obvious if you're looking outside, but an airspeed change is slower to respond.
Click to expand...
I was just thinking, I could completely understand her point if the guy has 4 hours. There’s a lot the brain can’t compute early on in flight training and she may well transition her advice as he gets his sea legs, as it were.
 
dans2992 said:
Perhaps there’s something missing in translation here.
Click to expand...
There always is. While there is a chance that there are CFIs out there teaching students that Vx and Vy don’t matter and they should climb by reference to the attitude indicator alone, there is a much greater chance that the CFI said something smart that the low-time student pilot misunderstood, either on its own or in relation to other lessons. It’s like the game of Telephone except that the last person before us in the chain is repeating words that he just heard for the first time.

For those who think the CFI is an idiot and should be fired immediately, how do you transition from Vr to Vy? Is there something fundamentally stupid about giving a student a starting pitch angle to use for that transition?
 
iamtheari said:
For those who think the CFI is an idiot and should be fired immediately, how do you transition from Vr to Vy? Is there something fundamentally stupid about giving a student a starting pitch angle to use for that transition?
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting that. I was beginning to feel like I was the only one who learned to use a sight picture as gouge, to follow up with instrument reference as required.

Nauga,
setting the nose
 
BillTIZ said:
The DPE will expect Vx or Vy airspeeds, not pitch control.
Heaven forbid you ever fly an airplane with no attitude indicator. There are a lot of airplanes out there with no attitude, or pitch indication.
Click to expand...
This is my driving force behind creating this thread. I don't want to develop habits that are counter to best practices.
 
Again, the best practice is to follow the POH. It's helpful to learn what approximate pitch attitude gives you the desired speed so that you can put the nose there while things stabilize, but on the climb, you will want to adjust that to hold the published speed. This is THE right way and what the DPE and everybody else down the line will want to see.
 
These threads make me feel like a bad / lazy pilot. I just rotate at 80, pitch up and make sure the plane keeps going up.
I don't think I ever pitch for Vanythingspecific. I glance at the ASI to make sure I don't get slow on climb out but that's about it.

At work obviously I follow the numbers and they are commanded by the FD but in Comanche world I wonder if I should be targeting a specific speed.

Maybe I am a lazy GA pilot or maybe its a non issue because I have really good climb performance and don't really fly in places where I have to do math to avoid hitting obstacles.
^^ That wasn't intended to sound snarky. I'm thinking out loud.
 
I learned to fly more than 50 years ago. I lived in a city in the mountains of BC, and the airport was in the bottom of the valley. There was no nice straight "horizon" until one climbed up to well above the surrounding peaks, and that required climbing from the 1100'ASL airport up to seven or eight thousand, which we never did for primary training. So "putting the nose on the horizon" meant nothing; it was airspeed control. Some of the trainers didn't have attitude indicators, either. "Artificial horizon" is what that thing was called then. Things changed much later, with everything becoming an "indicator" of some sort, and speeds labelled Vx and Vy and Vfe and Vg and Va and so on, all of this terminology dragged in from the transport world. Yes, the old POHs call for "best climb" and "best angle" and "flap extension" and "best glide" and "maneuvering speed," but applying V-speed terms to them changes nothing. They are still airspeeds for reference.

Many, maybe most, pilots live in much flatter areas where the horizon is a useful reference. Not so where I lived at the time, and so I flew by the POH and textbooks. One of my instructors insisted that I recover from turns using rudder only, leading to serious slip in the rollout to level. I don't know where he got that, but I think he was afraid of stalling the inside wing with aileron and spinning or something. I had a hard time unlearning it. Primacy is a real thing.

Cessna builds and tests their airplanes in Kansas. Nice and flat, perfect horizons. But they still publish V-speeds in their AFMs, with no reference to pitch attitude. That should tell us something. They would be aware of the danger of deceptively rising terrain, usually in or near the mountains, that leads to some horizon-fixated pilots increasing pitch right up to the stall in an effort to keep clear of the ground. They can't figure out why the airplane seems reluctant to climb.

From https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2021/a21a0024/a21a0024.html

Inexperienced pilots often fall into the common trap of using a ridgeline as the horizon and unintentionally altering the aircraft attitude, climbing the aircraft with a corresponding decrease in airspeed, and not making a timely decision to reverse course. The horizon goes through the base of the mountains, not the ridges. This illusion may also be exacerbated by the blending of ridgelines in the distance, due to a lack of contrast.

Optic flow is used to estimate height above ground and speed, especially when positional cues are reduced or absent. Closer objects move more rapidly in the optic flow field compared to the relatively slow angular velocities of more distant objects and terrain. Increased optic flow can provide an indication of increasing speed or decreasing altitude.

An upslope illusion occurs when flying towards rising terrain. As the slope ascends, the dense vegetation on the hills can disguise the sloping terrain, resulting in the pilot estimating the aircraft’s height as being higher than it really is.

The relative velocity of the images moving across the retina is also used to determine one’s speed. When a pilot is flying over rising terrain, the objects directly in front of the cockpit are closer than they are when the pilot is flying over flat terrain. Because objects that are close are perceived as moving faster than more distant objects, a pilot flying above rising terrain may perceive the speed of the aircraft as being higher than it actually is. This illusion of higher speed in relation to the ground gets compounded when the aircraft is in a tailwind condition.
 
Recovery from engine problems is difficult at low level Vx, so I reserve that for necessity only.

My favorite flying book is Contact Flying. The author talks about getting up to cruise climb speed in ground effect before climbing. Many of us do that in gusty weather, so why not exercise the same in normal flying, assuming the runway length supports it? For normal ops I retract flaps in ground effect, then turn down my RPM to limit noise, then climb. When you don’t have altitude, speed is the best safety tool you have.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Joining the chorus of "not in TOGA on anything I've ever flown". TOGA goes to a pitch angle that varies depending on the aircraft type. I've seen it in the range from 5º to 12.5º nose up.
Click to expand...
And in some airplanes it’s only GA, totally inappropriate for TO. If you want to see your life flash before your eyes, try fighting on the controls with someone who doesn’t understand that when you’re in the clouds at 75 feet and 220 knots. :eek:

Bottom line, make sure you understand your equipment and operational goals, and evaluate what you’re told about how to operate it based on that knowledge.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I learned to fly more than 50 years ago. I lived in a city in the mountains of BC, and the airport was in the bottom of the valley. There was no nice straight "horizon" until one climbed up to well above the surrounding peaks...
Click to expand...
What do/did you do between rotation speed and climb speed?

Nauga,
whose attitude depends on where he is
 
nauga said:
What do/did you do between rotation speed and climb speed?

Nauga,
whose attitude depends on where he is
Click to expand...
We didn't "rotate" in those days. The airplane lifted off when it was ready, and we held that attitude until climb speed was reached, then increased the pitch to hold it there. Rotation was another technique brought from the transport world into the little-airplane world.

When I was doing taildragger instruction, I told the student to go to full throttle, keep the nose straight, and when the tail rose a bit, start pulling back to maintain that attitude, tailwheel off maybe six inches. The airplane lifted off and rapidly accelerated toward climb speed. More pitch, then, but if the trim was properly set for the load, the nose rose of its own accord as the airspeed over the tail increased and climb speed was right there. One just relaxed the back pressure as the speed increased.
 
Boom! said:
This is my driving force behind creating this thread. I don't want to develop habits that are counter to best practices.
Click to expand...
Hello Boom!

Wow--your simple inquiry received quite a variety of responses. I'm surprised that you're not totally confused after reading all of the replies to your OP. I mean, flight directors?! Come on, PoA, you're better than that.

Seriously though, it's unfair to pass judgement on your CFI without knowing her side of this story, and while some of the responses you've received are sound, others are dubious.

Ask your CFI for a thorough pre or post-flight briefing, during which you can ask questions in an effort to understand just what she is teaching and why. And remember, you can always fly with a different instructor. Well, almost always.
 
I do not believe I've ever noted my initial pitch angle in either the C152 I trained in or the Warrior II I've flown for 25 years. Plane lifts off and I monitor airspeed and climb visually. At my home drome (2700'), once I clear the power lines (if on runway 15), I continue to monitor my airspeed and make my noise abatement turn careful of an accelerated stall.

I've taken off from runways in canyons--either real rock canyons or canyons formed from 200' evergreens. I think in some cases a 10* climb pitch would've killed me, but I can't verify that since I've never checked.

As others have said, adjust your climb pitch to match conditions and talk it over with your instructor.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
These threads make me feel like a bad / lazy pilot. I just rotate at 80, pitch up and make sure the plane keeps going up.
I don't think I ever pitch for Vanythingspecific. I glance at the ASI to make sure I don't get slow on climb out but that's about it.
Click to expand...
Ah, but you have a High Performance Comanche! ;)

I rarely stop at Vx, Vy, or even the published cruise climb speed - I fly "Vz" which is theoretically the most efficient climb speed for the flight, and that's 18 knots faster than cruise climb and 33 knots over Vy.

In a 108hp Citabria, I used Vy if I wanted to climb at all. :rofl:

Stewartb said:
My favorite flying book is Contact Flying. The author talks about getting up to cruise climb speed in ground effect before climbing. Many of us do that in gusty weather, so why not exercise the same in normal flying, assuming the runway length supports it? For normal ops I retract flaps in ground effect, then turn down my RPM to limit noise, then climb. When you don’t have altitude, speed is the best safety tool you have.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't stay in ground effect THAT long. That's going to put you unnecessarily close to the ground in the engine failure after liftoff scenario. There's a balance to be struck between speed and climb rate.

MauleSkinner said:
And in some airplanes it’s only GA, totally inappropriate for TO. If you want to see your life flash before your eyes, try fighting on the controls with someone who doesn’t understand that when you’re in the clouds at 75 feet and 220 knots. :eek:
Click to expand...
Oddly enough, at work it's labeled GA both on the yoke buttons and on the scoreboard, but we use it for takeoff too. :dunno:

What plane would go 220 knots on GA after a takeoff???

MauleSkinner said:
Bottom line, make sure you understand your equipment and operational goals, and evaluate what you’re told about how to operate it based on that knowledge.
Click to expand...
Yep. I'd also like to know what the certification requirements are for autopilots with flight directors. That TOGA pitch angle isn't based on a guess, there's performance involved.
 
Boom! said:
I'm a low hour student pilot. During ground school both Vx and Vy, and their uses, were drilled into us. Now that I'm flying with an instructor, she has told me to add full power, rotate at Vr, and then pitch for 10° after liftoff. I asked her why I shouldn't simply fly Vx or Vy, and she said she has found the aircraft seems to fly better at a 10° pitch. I can easily do what she says, but I don't want to get any bad habits started.
Click to expand...
Good for you for asking.

Dan Thomas said:
Another instructor making up their own rules. There is a long history of that, and it sometimes results in accidents. Try that 10° pitch in a 150 at gross on a high, hot day and see what happens.
...
The stuff in the textbooks has ALL been learned the hard way, with blood and bent metal. You don't have to learn the stuff the hard way. You won't live long enough to learn it all.
Click to expand...
I agree with @Dan Thomas here.

The correct procedure for a normal takeoff is to apply full power (lean if at high DA) and pitch for the indicated airspeed you need. That's usually Vy but it can be faster or slower depending on the situation. At high DA, your actual airspeed will be faster than indicated but that doesn't matter - fly the indicated airspeed because it represents how the wing responds to the air. Another fact to keep in mind is that at high DA, Vy is a bit slower than the POH, and Vx is a bit faster. They meet at the airplane's ceiling, and Vx increases a bit more than Vy decreases, so the airspeed where they meet is a bit faster than the point half-way between.

Given that you're climbing at full power and pitching to maintain a specific airspeed, the angle of climb depends on conditions. It could be 15* on a cold winter day at sea level or less than 5* on a hot summer day at high altitude. You don't pitch for angle, you pitch for airspeed; the resulting angle may vary and is whatever you get.

PS: if runway, terrain, airspace, etc. permit, then climbing at a faster airspeed than Vy is often better. The shallower angle improves visibility, and combined with the higher airspeed improves engine cooling.

PPS: if you're ever in a situation where you need to climb at Vx on takeoff in order to clear obstacles, think twice and ask yourself why you're doing that. You're putting yourself into a high risk situation. As a general rule, never fly toward an obstacle unless you're already higher than it - don't fly toward it relying on the airplane's climb angle to get you over it.
 
Last edited:
If you pitch to 10 degrees, what airspeed do you get? I'd be willing to bet 10 degrees gets you pretty dang close to Vx and then 7 degrees or so gets you about Vy. It's not absolute, it's thereabout. and 10 degrees is just what works on that airplane. A lot of flying is what is commonly called "gouge". By telling you to pitch to 10 degrees, she's giving you the "gouge" rather than having you get tunnel vision chasing an airspeed during a critical phase of flight. As you progress through the syllabus, you'll learn much more gouge. Just remember, whats good gouge on one airplane (or even one flight) is not always good gouge on another.
 
Last edited:
wilkersk said:
If you pitch to 10 degrees, what airspeed do you get? I'd be willing to bet 10 degrees gets you Vx and then 7 degrees or so gets you Vy. ...
Click to expand...
At what altitude? Temperature? Aircraft loading?
The pitch angle varies too much with these factors, which is why pitching to an angle instead of an airspeed is improper technique that can get pilots killed.

New pilot with fresh ink on his certificate rents a 172 and flies several friends for the first time. Taking off for the first time at gross weight on a hot summer day, he pitches for 10* just like his instructor taught him to do (when the airplane was 700 pounds lighter). Mushes, stalls, ... sadly, we've all read about this accident before.
 
MRC01 said:
At what altitude? Temperature? Aircraft loading?
The pitch angle varies too much with these factors, which is why pitching to an angle instead of an airspeed is improper technique that can get pilots killed.

New pilot with fresh ink on his certificate rents a 172 and flies several friends for the first time. Taking off for the first time at gross weight on a hot summer day, he pitches for 10* just like his instructor taught him to do (when the airplane was 700 pounds lighter). Mushes, stalls, ... sadly, we've all read about this accident before.
Click to expand...
Training wheels first, then the Phd.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Joining the chorus of "not in TOGA on anything I've ever flown". TOGA goes to a pitch angle that varies depending on the aircraft type. I've seen it in the range from 5º to 12.5º nose up.
Click to expand...
Some aircraft do calculate it, and in some, at least the one I flew, it's useless if an engine fails. You go back to pitching for airspeed (V2). Minimum performance requirements are based on an engine inoperative anyway.
 
Boom! said:
Is this a big deal, or should I just pitch for 10° and go on?
Click to expand...
When I was low time flying a Cessna 150 and was introduced to short field takeoffs, it was darn alarming trying to climb out at Vx without stalling the plane, especially while staring at the airspeed indicator. So, your instructor doesn't want you anywhere near that steep of an attitude as a newbie. That makes her 10° advice spot on. Now, about that "rotate" business. As others have said, it makes a beautiful transition into the air if you simply lighten the nose gear with elevator and let the plane lift off when it's ready. There's your own personal screw or rivet or dry marker spot out there on the cowl that you can keep on or near the horizon that will give you your target climb speed. Think ballpark close, not scientific precision. And if your horizon is obscured by a mountain ridge or tall trees (it's hard for me to get these next words out) look at the instruments instead.
 
dmspilot said:
Some aircraft do calculate it, and in some, at least the one I flew, it's useless if an engine fails. You go back to pitching for airspeed (V2). Minimum performance requirements are based on an engine inoperative anyway.
Click to expand...
Now I want to know even more what the certification requirements are. I'd bet in the jet I fly that the TOGA pitch would be roughly V2 with OEI, as it'll continue to accelerate at that pitch to at least V2+100 (not a typo). I mean, most of the time we're at V2 before we even get to that pitch so maybe if the engine failed on the runway at V1... Dunno, maybe I'll have to play with that next time I get in the sim.

I've seen manual adjustments called for in at least one plane - TBM with Type IV deice on it does a no-flap takeoff with Vr raised and takeoff pitch reduced by 2.5º. Never seen automatic ones. What is the calculation based on? Configuration, or are other variables taken into account as well?
 
Boom! said:
I'm a low hour student pilot. During ground school both Vx and Vy, and their uses, were drilled into us. Now that I'm flying with an instructor, she has told me to add full power, rotate at Vr, and then pitch for 10° after liftoff. I asked her why I shouldn't simply fly Vx or Vy, and she said she has found the aircraft seems to fly better at a 10° pitch. I can easily do what she says, but I don't want to get any bad habits started.

Is this a big deal, or should I just pitch for 10° and go on?
Click to expand...

I feel for you buddy. Your instructor may or may not appreciate that the "10 degrees" is just gouge. If she does, she's probably telling you this because she doesn't want you thinking about things like density altitude and takeoff weight right now in your training. She probably wants you to 'feel' what a normal takeoff is in order to help you develop that all important seat-of-the-pants muscle memory.

You will have to demonstrate your knowledge of how density altitude and aircraft weight affect aircraft performance. But maybe not right now? I dunno the experts here are correct. But methinks perhaps we're all overthinking this. Either learn from your CFI, or find another one.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What plane would go 220 knots on GA after a takeoff???
Click to expand...
Beechjet 400. Sounds like the Hawker would do it, too, based on your post. It’s been 15 years since I flew those, so I don’t remember.
flyingcheesehead said:
I'd bet in the jet I fly that the TOGA pitch would be roughly V2 with OEI, as it'll continue to accelerate at that pitch to at least V2+100 (not a typo).
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
Yep. I'd also like to know what the certification requirements are for autopilots with flight directors. That TOGA pitch angle isn't based on a guess, there's performance involved.
Click to expand...
Good question…the 7.5 degrees pitch for GA in the 400 is a carryover from the Diamond, which had 400 lbs less thrust per side. In the 400A with the same engines as the 400, they bumped GA up to 10 degrees, which gives you Vac on one engine with flaps 10 and gear up.

For comparisons, the memory items in the 400A for engine failure on takeoff after V1 include 13-15 degrees pitch for V2.
 
Last edited:
MRC01 said:
At what altitude? Temperature? Aircraft loading?
The pitch angle varies too much with these factors, which is why pitching to an angle instead of an airspeed is improper technique that can get pilots killed.

New pilot with fresh ink on his certificate rents a 172 and flies several friends for the first time. Taking off for the first time at gross weight on a hot summer day, he pitches for 10* just like his instructor taught him to do (when the airplane was 700 pounds lighter). Mushes, stalls, ... sadly, we've all read about this accident before.
Click to expand...

This goes back to what I stated earlier, that it is more important to develop the feel for the controls during take off rather than hit some precise number. On a heavier airplane, on a hot day, you will immediately feel the difference, and that is far more useful than knowing what Vy is.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That TOGA pitch angle isn't based on a guess, there's performance involved.
Click to expand...

THAT is precisely what I was talking about. It’s CALCULATED.

I’ve flown so many of these flight director autopilot combos I can hardly keep them straight…

I’m practically certain in the hand flown arena we are taught a set pitch for the go. If after all is said and done (flaps less, two rates, gear…) if you are less than v2, pitch down for it; if v2 to v2 plus 10, maintain; if greater than v2 plus 10, pitch up for v2 plus 10.

Kinda thought the a330 did that automatically as we were initially trained to do it ONLY on auto pilot/auto throttles.

Even if it blindly went to whatever pitch, if it recognized a stall oncoming, it adjusted AUTOMATICALLY (which means the flight director would do it if hand flown). Early planes(ish, not THAT old) might could let ya get into trouble, but procedure (if done correctly and PAINSTAKINGLY detailed) would prevent that. And it’s based on calculated speeds for prevailing conditions.

NONE of this is relevant to single engine fixed gear trainers. If you aren’t pitching for a speed (an AOA would be better), basically hand flying IAS mode, you’re asking for problems in the startle response venue later.

In carrier aviation, EVERYTHING is AOA based. Problem solved.
 
sarangan said:
This goes back to what I stated earlier, that it is more important to develop the feel for the controls during take off rather than hit some precise number. On a heavier airplane, on a hot day, you will immediately feel the difference, and that is far more useful than knowing what Vy is.
Click to expand...
A newbie student has not developed the "feel" for the airplane, and won't for some time. Airspeed is safety, and the numbers do not lie. If I was to climb into some sort of airplane I have never flown before, I would want to know Vs, Vx and Vy, at a minimum. The "feel" would do me no good at all. Might get me killed.
 
Dan Thomas said:
AirSPEED is safety
Click to expand...

I notice you didn’t say angle. I agree COMPLETELY.

Pay attention to what that control check feels like in the chocks. When you get SLOW, you’ll recognize that.
 
wilkersk said:
Training wheels first, then the Phd.
Click to expand...
That's a good analogy because training wheels teach the wrong method for riding a bicycle, by reversing the way steering and balance work.

Pitching to airspeed isn't any harder than pitching for angle, so one might as well learn to do it the right way, the first time. Get the law of primacy in your favor and avoid confusion.
 
MRC01 said:
...Pitching to airspeed isn't any harder than pitching for angle, so one might as well learn to do it the right way, the first time. Get the law of primacy in your favor and avoid confusion.
Click to expand...

I disagree. pitch attitude is displayed nearly instantaneously, whereas airspeed is quite a bit more nebulous, and more prone to hunt and peck method. I'd be willing to bet for most new student pilots flying the gouge to start with will get them heads up faster and less prone to tunnel vision.
 
If you took “pitch for airspeed” literally, you’d rotate at Vy.

The transition between Vr and Vy has to be managed somehow. Yeah, you can usually just pitch to some value until Vy rolls around, but at least a target angle gives some structure.
 
dans2992 said:
If you took “pitch for airspeed” literally, you’d rotate at Vy.
Click to expand...
No, that would be pitching AT Vy, which would result in accelerating beyond Vy. And most people that I see do this end up pitching too high, slowing below the target speed, then pitching too low, accelerating beyond the target speed, ultimately chasing a speed and never stabilizing.
 
The thing about this airspeed lags and such (vsi accused of the same thing), is that if you train to that, you seem to learn to pitch to what’s right over time. You intuitively know it’s hot, or cold heavy or light. You learn to FEEL your aircraft.

This even comes with BIG planes. I could feel during the rotation (which is rather lengthy comparatively) if the plane was heavy or light.

Nothing about anything is really hard… hard is simply what you have not yet mastered. Agreed, it will take more time, but I believe it’s a little better way to learn.
 
nauga said:
I was beginning to feel like I was the only one who learned to use a sight picture as gouge, to follow up with instrument reference as required.
Click to expand...

Same here. But I think I learned to fly by the numbers first, and gradually learned what my plane looks like, sounds like, and feels like in various situations. I have taken off with a plugged or covered pitot tube several times, and did not notice it until I leveled off at pattern altitude.

Do CFI's ever cover the ASI and have student pilots take off and land without it? If not, they should.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Do CFI's ever cover the ASI and have student pilots take off and land without it? If not, they should.
Click to expand...
My first flight ever in a Bonanza was one of those…and I guessed correctly on a target power setting to get configured for landing, and was within 10 knots of the final approach speed I wanted. Apparently the things that work in a Lance also work in a Bonanza.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top