Am I being unreasonable?

In the PC-12 we retract flaps on roll out to increase braking. We go into some short runways. You also have to operate the thrust lever (beta) and move the condition lever to ground idle, all while still rolling down the runway. You would have to be a complete dumb a** to get the gear lever in that mix.

I take it none of you "don't touch that" folks do touch and goes?

As for the OP's instructor, I was done with the guy when he "demonstrated" an approach. As an instructor, the only time I fly is if the student* is struggling with a maneuver that we briefed on the ground.

There was a syllabus, right? Where the pilot-not-learning briefed which items were going to be flown in order to stay on track?

*Get off my lawn
 
If you're giving him another go, I'd lay down the law on expectations. Yet, I wouldn't have expectations that he will change long term.
Unfortunately, those types of people do exist.


(just like Zombie attacks)
 
I understand the argument against resetting the airplane after landing until clear of the runway but do none of you do touch and goes?

My IFR training was full of touch and goes. The only full stops I did were to use the restroom or final landing of the day. Aircraft rental is simply too high to waste money taxiing back to the end of the runway. I was lucky to have one of the best instructors I have ever met. He is a retired USAF pilot. I started my IFR training with ~3,000 hours.
 
While I understand the points made about the taxi calls and flap retraction, I still feel uneasy about continuing with this person. I will give it one more lesson for him to redeem himself in my eyes. There were many other things I did not mention that occurred like him insulting other students in my presence. As well as other instructors interrupting my lessons to talk to him and him saying its okay for that to happen. I have flown with a lot of people all over the country, and have never felt like this about someone.

if you don’t feel comfortable for whatever reason, move on. Not every student and CFI mesh. Don’t waste money trying to gut it out and don‘t feel bad about moving on to another CFI or another school altogether.
 
Keep doing the taxi calls, might save your life someday. Will definitely help you with other ground traffic you can't see. How could it save your life?? Announcing you are about to cross a runway is a traffic call, some runways are hard to see if an airplane is beginning its roll.
 
You are kind to take another lesson from him, but I think you’ve seen his habits. Even if goes a little better, he won’t suddenly change for good. The insulting of other students in your presence shows he has some personal issues. It’s not OK to be interrupted during a lesson unless it’s real important.

Find another instructor and enjoy learning without all of the baggage and noise this CFI is providing. You deserve better.
 
Keep doing the taxi calls, might save your life someday. Will definitely help you with other ground traffic you can't see. How could it save your life?? Announcing you are about to cross a runway is a traffic call, some runways are hard to see if an airplane is beginning its roll.
You are right. Crossing a runway is definitely a "traffic" call. As is "clear of Runway 35." Or "backtaxi runway 15."

But I wouldn't consider "taxiing from the hangars to the self-serve" and other ramp calls to be in the same category.
 
Why are people focusing on the taxi call and flaps and not the fact that he flew the airplane for her? Did people stop reading her post halfway through?
 
I have flown with a lot of people all over the country, and have never felt like this about someone.
Trust your intuition. Differences in technique are OK, as long as people have reasons for them, but there's no excuse for being arrogant, and he sounds very much like he is.
 
While I understand the points made about the taxi calls and flap retraction, I still feel uneasy about continuing with this person. I will give it one more lesson for him to redeem himself in my eyes. There were many other things I did not mention that occurred like him insulting other students in my presence. As well as other instructors interrupting my lessons to talk to him and him saying its okay for that to happen. I have flown with a lot of people all over the country, and have never felt like this about someone.
This gives me the cfi that killed his student vibes. I'd walk. Quickly.
 
While I understand the points made about the taxi calls and flap retraction, I still feel uneasy about continuing with this person. I will give it one more lesson for him to redeem himself in my eyes. There were many other things I did not mention that occurred like him insulting other students in my presence. As well as other instructors interrupting my lessons to talk to him and him saying its okay for that to happen. I have flown with a lot of people all over the country, and have never felt like this about someone.
If you are not comfortable with this instructor, you should absolutely get a new one. Does not matter who is right or wrong on the issues. The two of you need to have trust and rapport for the learning process to succeed.
 
So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. He wanted to do the pre-flight even though I am a PPL. Was explaining to me how to do a pre flight which I felt insulted my intelligence, but fine whatever. Teach me how you want it done. He did not do the final walk around, and just got in the plane.[ So I took it upon myself to do it. Then we got in the plane and I thought it was odd that he did not want to make a taxi call on CTAF because a better use of time was needed for pilots to make traffic pattern calls instead. Then he proceeded to taxi and do the run-up. Then during the run-up he paused and asked if I wanted to look at a T-6 that was landing. I said "We are doing the run-up." Then he finished and proceeded to takeoff. Then on the climb out had me put on the foggles and I did a hold. Then he set up a LOC approach back into the airport and did the whole thing himself! Only at the very end did he say "your controls." Then I landed and after a smooth landing I retracted the flaps. Then he said "Don't do that!" I said why, I have always done that. Then he said once you are in a multi-engine plane you could accidentally retract the landing gear. Then I thought to myself "Okay whatever I have always done it like that." Then on the way back to taxi to the ramp, there was a person crossing in front of us maybe 30ft ahead, and he said "10 points if you can hit him." Now tell me how in the hell am I supposed to learn from someone like this?! Am I being unreasonable, or should I expect my first IFR lesson in the plane to be like this. He also found it surprising that I asked him to clear the airspace before I proceeded to turn 360 degrees like he asked.
Princesspilot206,

Point-by-point, here are some thoughts (since you asked). If you choose to read the following, please consider that I wasn't present and only have the information contained in your post (your side of the story) to go on.

Taxi call: As others have pointed-out, making such calls is often entirely unnecessary and serves only to clutter the frequency. At certain airports, and under certain circumstances, such calls can be meaningful to other traffic and serve to increase safety. It should not be a standard procedure at every uncontrolled airport, but carefully considered on a case-by-case basis.

T-6: Good for you. You were focused on accomplishing a safety-critical task and chose to maintain that focus despite the distraction. Well done.

LOC approach: It's unclear why the CFI chose to fly the approach. This makes no sense to me, unless he has an interview coming up and wanted to use the opportunity to sharpen his skills--and if that were the case, it was entirely inappropriate and unprofessional.

Flaps: There are circumstances in which retracting the flaps during rollout may help reduce ground roll. Some AFH/POH procedures recommend it, but even then, the difference in actual ground roll is relatively small. On the other hand, there have been THOUSANDS of incidents in which pilots have inadvertantly retracted the landing gear while rolling-out after landing. This represents a very real threat, and especially so when flying certain aircraft such as Bonanzas and Barons. In many cases, it seems likely that pilots were taught, or adopted, this technique as a SOP to be used on every landing, and it became a matter of unthinking habit--a habit which had no adverse consequences, until one day... You were wise in the case of the T-6 distraction, and the same philosophy applies to this matter. There is rarely any pressing reason to touch any controls other than the yoke, pedals, and throttle, until the airplane is clear of the runway. Take a moment to consider the potential benefit vs. the potential consequences of making a mistake. I suggest that, as a matter of SOP, pilots should not operate the flaps until clear of the runway and able to focus on moving the flap lever. In exceptional situations when maximum braking effectiveness may be required (short runway, wet grass, standing water, snow/slush/ice, etc.) and when retracting the flaps after touchdown may make a meaningful difference in braking performance, the landing should be carefully planned, briefed, and mentally rehearsed, before entering the pattern.

10 points if you can hit him: An oblique reference to the 1975 movie Death Race 2000 probably made with humorous intent. The humor, such as there may have been, is lost if you didn't see the movie.

Airspace: I assume you were wearing the Foggles during the maneuver, in which case clearing the airspace woud be solely his responsibility, 100% of the time. More context is needed.

Having said all that, here are a couple more thoughts:

Preflight: In this first sentence, you tipped your hand. Without having been in the room when the CFI discussed the preflight inspection, it's difficult to understand how such a discussion might have "insulted" your intelligence. How, exactly, was your intelligence insulted? Was the CFI condescending? May I suggest that many instructors (including yours truly) have had experiences in which a student did not perform an adequate preflight and missed something important. Perhaps your instructor has had a similar experience and learned not to take the matter for granted.

But what is most curious to me is your decision to seek validation from the Internet, in high dudgeon, instead of sitting-down with the CFI and discussing your concerns directly with him--a conversation that could go something like, "I really liked it when you [A, B, C]; but I found it frustrating when you {D, E, F}, and I didn't understand why we {X, Y, Z]." I suggest that such a discussion would benefit both of you much more than any of the replies to a forum post.

Good luck.
 
Everyone keeps saying he’s right about not retracting flaps on the runway. While I agree, that’s not what the OP said at all.
When I first read the OP that’s what I thought as well, but when I reread it I saw otherwise.
He mentions nothing about being on the runway, but rather simply states it’s the instructor wants to be the one to retract flaps.
 
Everyone keeps saying he’s right about not retracting flaps on the runway. While I agree, that’s not what the OP said at all.
When I first read the OP that’s what I thought as well, but when I reread it I saw otherwise.
He mentions nothing about being on the runway, but rather simply states it’s the instructor wants to be the one to retract flaps.
That's not what I heard.

And why would any instructor insist on teaching a student that the flaps need to be operated by the instructor??? (That's especially true after a verbal handoff of, "Your controls".)
 
Everyone keeps saying he’s right about not retracting flaps on the runway. While I agree, that’s not what the OP said at all.
When I first read the OP that’s what I thought as well, but when I reread it I saw otherwise.
He mentions nothing about being on the runway, but rather simply states it’s the instructor wants to be the one to retract flaps.
That’s not the way I’m reading it…but one run-on paragraph is kind of difficult to decipher clearly.
 
He did not want to be the one to retract the flaps, but was questioning why I did upon landing. Which was something I was taught to do by a sharp, seasoned, and respected CFI many moons ago. Never had anyone question me about that before.
 
...instead of sitting-down with the CFI and discussing your concerns directly with him--a conversation that could go something like, "I really liked it when you [A, B, C]; but I found it frustrating when you {D, E, F}, and I didn't understand why we {X, Y, Z]."
I have bounced this situation off of multiple respected aviators, because this is a novel situation for me. I want to know how best to approach it. You are assuming this conversation would be easy to have, but from what I am gathering he is immature.
 
I have bounced this situation off of multiple respected aviators, because this is a novel situation for me. I want to know how best to approach it. You are assuming this conversation would be easy to have, but from what I am gathering he is immature.
You’ve got to be assertive when necessary, but that doesn’t mean the conversation has to adversarial. The same is true when flying and dealing with ATC or other crew members. Otherwise you might end up a statistic one day. At the end of the day, a CFI works for you, not the other way around. IMO this thread has run its course.
 
You're wasting your time. An instrument instructor who does his own taxi, takeoff, and approach is not worth a dime.
 
So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. He wanted to do the pre-flight even though I am a PPL. Was explaining to me how to do a pre flight which I felt insulted my intelligence, but fine whatever. Teach me how you want it done. He did not do the final walk around, and just got in the plane. So I took it upon myself to do it. Then we got in the plane and I thought it was odd that he did not want to make a taxi call on CTAF because a better use of time was needed for pilots to make traffic pattern calls instead. Then he proceeded to taxi and do the run-up. Then during the run-up he paused and asked if I wanted to look at a T-6 that was landing. I said "We are doing the run-up." Then he finished and proceeded to takeoff. Then on the climb out had me put on the foggles and I did a hold. Then he set up a LOC approach back into the airport and did the whole thing himself! Only at the very end did he say "your controls." Then I landed and after a smooth landing I retracted the flaps. Then he said "Don't do that!" I said why, I have always done that. Then he said once you are in a multi-engine plane you could accidentally retract the landing gear. Then I thought to myself "Okay whatever I have always done it like that." Then on the way back to taxi to the ramp, there was a person crossing in front of us maybe 30ft ahead, and he said "10 points if you can hit him." Now tell me how in the hell am I supposed to learn from someone like this?! Am I being unreasonable, or should I expect my first IFR lesson in the plane to be like this. He also found it surprising that I asked him to clear the airspace before I proceeded to turn 360 degrees like he asked.
I've had my first 3 IFR lessons in the plane in the last week. We're following the Cessna IFR lesson plan. So far we've combined some of the lessons, so I'm finished with step 5 after 3.

For what its worth, he told me to not retract flaps on the runway, too. Said wait until after the hold bar, stop, then run through after-landing checklist. He told me to get in the habit of it, because I might not always be familiar with the plane I'm flying, and the DPE will expect it anyways.

Day 1:
IFR preflight
Instr. Scan
Straight & Level
Standard rate Turns
Climbing Turn
Pitch/Power settings
Constant rate turns climb/descent
Square pattern tracking
Pattern B 1x

Day 2:
Full IFR flight approx 95nm away
Filed flight plan
Flew flight plan
RNAV approach
Turned around, did it again on the way back.
Compass turns
Partial panel loss (HSI)

Day 3:
Unusual attitudes
2 min closed eyes flying off body "feel"...
Square pattern
VOR tracking
Partial panel RNAV approach

Several times my CFII has handled the radio, especially during heavy approach sequences. But the only times he's handled controls was to show me how far off a distance looked from CL on approach, trying to get me to vomit, and a few times to give me a short rest (or if there was something really cool outside he wanted me to see).

Some of the times he's handled the radio tuning, but most times I've done it. He's teaching me to do it incrementally so I don't screw up the attitude/heading. Plus, he's teaching me tips/tricks to the GPS and panels to help me better manage the flow of information/loading frequencies/etc He's been awesome so far!!

Sounds like your instructor wants to make himself $$, and not really train you. I'd find another.
 
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I have bounced this situation off of multiple respected aviators, because this is a novel situation for me. I want to know how best to approach it. You are assuming this conversation would be easy to have, but from what I am gathering he is immature.
Damn, just dump him already, you owe him nothing.
 
So I am 7 lessons into my IFR rating, and so far I have only been in the sim up until this point. Today I "flew" with the instructor, and what I mean by "flew" is he did the majority of the piloting. He wanted to do the pre-flight even though I am a PPL. Was explaining to me how to do a pre flight which I felt insulted my intelligence, but fine whatever. Teach me how you want it done. He did not do the final walk around, and just got in the plane. So I took it upon myself to do it. Then we got in the plane and I thought it was odd that he did not want to make a taxi call on CTAF because a better use of time was needed for pilots to make traffic pattern calls instead. Then he proceeded to taxi and do the run-up. Then during the run-up he paused and asked if I wanted to look at a T-6 that was landing. I said "We are doing the run-up." Then he finished and proceeded to takeoff. Then on the climb out had me put on the foggles and I did a hold. Then he set up a LOC approach back into the airport and did the whole thing himself! Only at the very end did he say "your controls." Then I landed and after a smooth landing I retracted the flaps. Then he said "Don't do that!" I said why, I have always done that. Then he said once you are in a multi-engine plane you could accidentally retract the landing gear. Then I thought to myself "Okay whatever I have always done it like that." Then on the way back to taxi to the ramp, there was a person crossing in front of us maybe 30ft ahead, and he said "10 points if you can hit him." Now tell me how in the hell am I supposed to learn from someone like this?! Am I being unreasonable, or should I expect my first IFR lesson in the plane to be like this. He also found it surprising that I asked him to clear the airspace before I proceeded to turn 360 degrees like he asked.
Move on. Get another CFI your already unhappy with this one.
 
That's not what I heard.

And why would any instructor insist on teaching a student that the flaps need to be operated by the instructor??? (That's especially true after a verbal handoff of, "Your controls".)
Beats me, but that’s what he wrote.
 
When it comes to touching stuff on the rollout I try to always do what’s appropriate for the situation. I gather good intel when someone tells me to never touch anything on rollout because _________.
 
He did not want to be the one to retract the flaps, but was questioning why I did upon landing. Which was something I was taught to do by a sharp, seasoned, and respected CFI many moons ago. Never had anyone question me about that before.
Okay… well that clears that up.
 
...end of conversation. Thanks!
Actually, a bunch of pilot people here want to know about your new instructor, and the improvements he or she makes in your progress. Consider it payment for all the free advice. :biggrin:
 
I can’t imagine doing any of that on a first IFR lesson (unless there was something wrong with the pilot) except perhaps recommending waiting to get off the runway before cleaning the airplane for taxi, but even that could have waited until the debrief.

OTOH, there are IFR basics that, from the OP’s account, were not even touched on. IFR taxi checks, the airwork to begin converting the limited emergency scan of the VFR pilot into the sustainable scan of the instrument pilot, working on pitch-power-configuration targets for the phases of flight…

I’m not quite ready for “get rid of him,” but I would be asking why.
I guess I should have emphasized the “might” more. True that would not be a typical 1st IFR flight. But then I rarely have access to a Sim for IFR training so we are usually starting at Hour #1 not Hour #7 or more and I sort of assumed the OP didn’t post about things that happened that he might have expected, like the IFR preflight checks. But then this might have been covered during the sim training.

Also typically if I am flying the Approach in part for my currency, which this instructor may or may not have been doing, I will discount the lesson.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I have bounced this situation off of multiple respected aviators, because this is a novel situation for me. I want to know how best to approach it. You are assuming this conversation would be easy to have, but from what I am gathering he is immature.
Well, I am no "respected aviator" by any stretch of the imagination. Nonetheless, I maintain that the best way to "approach it" is to have a conversation with the CFI. Every brief/debrief should be a two-way discussion. If the lesson was conducted as you described in your original post, it presents a much-needed opportunity for the CFI to learn and improve from the feedback you provide. Would such a conversation be easy to have? It depends upon the parties involved, and how they choose to communicate with each other. I make no assumptions whatsoever.

It's also possible to read your OP differently. You admitted that you felt that your intelligence was insulted, and subsequently reeled-off a litany of complaints about the CFI, some of which seemed rather peculiar. A reader might be forgiven for wondering whether there may be more to the story.

But all of that is moot, now, isn't it? You got the validation that you wanted--end of conversation.
 
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