always too high on final....how to fix

ircphoenix said:
...Like I know when I'm downwind at SBD, I want to time my base turn so I'm pointed at the In N Out, and then turning final basically over In N Out...
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Oh crap, I don't have an In N Out. I have a big green-roofed building. I've been doing it wrong. :(

;)
 
Exactly. At the home drome I turn right before I get to Hawthorne Blvd for noise abatement. I continue my right turn passing by the hospital. I establish downwind over the tank farm, aiming at the left side of Machado Lake. I turn downwind when I look over my shoulder and the runway is disappearing in the window. If I've gone past McDonalds, I'm going to be low on final, so I increase power while I'm aiming at the old quarry. If I'm short of McDonald's, I'm going to be high, so I make sure to pull a couple hundred RPM.

Guess how many airports those landmarks work for.
 
ircphoenix said:
Exactly. At the home drome I turn right before I get to Hawthorne Blvd for noise abatement. I continue my right turn passing by the hospital. I establish downwind over the tank farm, aiming at the left side of Machado Lake. I turn downwind when I look over my shoulder and the runway is disappearing in the window. If I've gone past McDonalds, I'm going to be low on final, so I increase power while I'm aiming at the old quarry. If I'm short of McDonald's, I'm going to be high, so I make sure to pull a couple hundred RPM.

Guess how many airports those landmarks work for.
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I thought you were supposed to turn right before Hawthorne Blvd. to avoid crashing into the ice cream parlor.

Damn I'm old. That shop has been gone for decades.
 
ircphoenix said:
Exactly. At the home drome I turn right before I get to Hawthorne Blvd for noise abatement. I continue my right turn passing by the hospital. I establish downwind over the tank farm, aiming at the left side of Machado Lake. I turn downwind when I look over my shoulder and the runway is disappearing in the window. If I've gone past McDonalds, I'm going to be low on final, so I increase power while I'm aiming at the old quarry. If I'm short of McDonald's, I'm going to be high, so I make sure to pull a couple hundred RPM.

Guess how many airports those landmarks work for.
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Works for 29R at TOA.
 
MAKG1 said:
I thought you were supposed to turn right before Hawthorne Blvd. to avoid crashing into the ice cream parlor.

Damn I'm old. That shop has been gone for decades.
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Marcy's? I remember that place. Closed when I was in my teens I think.
 
ircphoenix said:
Marcy's? I remember that place. Closed when I was in my teens I think.
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Farrell's. I had many an elementary school band concert there.... It was on the west side of Hawthorne near the Chevy dealership.

And there was a stall-spin accident right in front of it at one point. In the early 80s, I think.
 
MAKG1 said:
Farrell's. I had many an elementary school band concert there.... It was on the west side of Hawthorne near the Chevy dealership.

And there was a stall-spin accident right in front of it at one point. In the early 80s, I think.
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Ah. El Pollo Inka now. Pretty good Peruvian food.
 
I always use the gravel pit since there always seems to be one near any airport ;)
 
What are you doing up already? I have to catch a plane to New York so I have an excuse.
 
As a student, I have been a little confused by all the debate and disagreement on landings, too high, too low, how to, rules of thumb, tips, all of which end up being (sometimes very aggressively) disputed.

I am a lowly student, but I wonder in all of this...I would ALMOST bet that many that are attacking each other, would both be able to watch each other make a landing and say "nice landing".

I get the feeling this acrimony stems from maybe that you all picked up different ways to accomplish the same thing and the fight is actually about how to pass that on to us beginners. Good intentions, but that give us students the feeling that nobody (or only one, but which one?) knows how to land or pass on the right tips.

Further, I get the feeling that landings and the landing pattern are so diverse with many variables that there is no one way to do it, but still a limited number of correct ways.

Last Monday I was mostly controlling the landing for the first time. Up until now I had just followed along with the controls as the CFI landed, but he is pushing (I'm not even yet in the section of my training where I am learning landings officially and being graded on them) me to take over as he is ready to step in if needed. There was so much going on in the pattern and the final that I was not able to really take it all in but I did get that "feel" and especially loved feeling how the stick comes back and back more slowly and deliberately until we landed. It was amazing for me. I still picture it.

I don't know, when I continue to start to get how to land if it might be ok at this stage to be learning only how to land at my base airport. I can see where it might be an advantage just in the beginning...because the are so many aspects to take into account. I definitely need and will learn to land at other airports, to be able to judge speed, glide, angles, and maybe most important, adjustments according to conditions at airports where the runway is different, maybe wider, less wide, longer (that's not so hard) or shorter than what I am "used to".

I can see that one can, consciously or subconsciously, pick up markers that are specific to my airport which will not be there or be different (even misleading) at another airport. But there is so muc to learn and if one needs or used those things just to be able to handle it, with intention later on to drop it, and start learning to gauge things universally...ok.

I don't know if the OP is having his problems at the SAME airport or just in general.

I do thank you all for the tips. I'm respectful and trying to decide which tips might be helpful for me but I will first and foremost listen to my CFI and maybe ask him.

I'm pretty sure in a lot of cases both sides have valid points...but it's apparent that it is a very internal thing to learn how to adjust for landings and land well yet I bet both sides make great landings.

I liked the tips about "how far out" and 3:1, but then realized I would have to know how far out I am....I'm definitely not there yet, I cannot judge distances yet from above. Made me wonder if you guys can or you study the map at the target airport and know then how far out you are on base and final?
 
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I just landed and I was STUPIDLY high since I totally misjudged my approach on a straight in. I slipped the plane. Hard. And I touched down just past the numbers. For VFR flying, it isn't always about a stabilized approach. I think few of us will ever reach perfection. A lot of it is how to FIX it and reacting immediately when you notice any of the thousand little things that need to be tended to on approach.
 
ircphoenix said:
I just landed and I was STUPIDLY high since I totally misjudged my approach on a straight in. I slipped the plane. Hard. And I touched down just past the numbers. For VFR flying, it isn't always about a stabilized approach. I think few of us will ever reach perfection. A lot of it is how to FIX it and reacting immediately when you notice any of the thousand little things that need to be tended to on approach.
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Stabilized approach is a huge part of having a good landing. If I'm that high or off on my approach, I'm going around and trying again. I always tell my students to go into every approach like they're going to go around. Don't try to save any landing or approach.
 
Jordan is right of course. (because he's Jordan ;)) But you need to define and recognize what 'stabilized" actually means.
If you're lucky enough to be a Cirrus driver, it's all there in the Profiles, but what the spirit of the guidance states is to be on a standard distance/glideslope/rate of descent/power profile.
Rule 101 of a Single Engine pattern is -within gliding distance. Do the math. (at 1000', whats my glide ratio defined distance?) Base turn should be tight -but understand what the wind does to your groundspeed. Once you're comfortable with the basics, start using landmarks to help you know when to make turns. -Only after you get the basics because you can't move the landmarks to unfamiliar airports, and things can get busy, really quickly. -take it from a guy who flys airliners into LGA & JFK every day ;)
neilki
 
jordane93 said:
Stabilized approach is a huge part of having a good landing. If I'm that high or off on my approach, I'm going around and trying again. I always tell my students to go into every approach like they're going to go around. Don't try to save any landing or approach.
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I wanted to be assured of my landing in case of engine out. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Who cares if I came in like a wreeeeeeeeeecking baaaaaaaaaalllllllll. =D
 
ircphoenix said:
I just landed and I was STUPIDLY high since I totally misjudged my approach on a straight in. I slipped the plane. Hard. And I touched down just past the numbers. For VFR flying, it isn't always about a stabilized approach. I think few of us will ever reach perfection. A lot of it is how to FIX it and reacting immediately when you notice any of the thousand little things that need to be tended to on approach.
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I probably would have done the same thing, or with a long runway, I'll just let her float till she lands.
 
champ driver said:
I take great offense at your comment about the idiot with no radio!
I could say the same about the clown in his Belchfire 250 with the latest high tech gadgets and his nose glued to them.
Not every place is the east coast or SoCal with it's high density traffic. The vast majority of this country is relatively sparse and a radio is not needed 100% of the time.
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult everyone of us with limited electrical systems.
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No reason today to have a " limited electrical system" I've flown hundreds of hours in a Stearman, champ, t craft, Luscombe, etc. with a decent handheld and external antenna. A radio should be used at any airport , including a small airport ( in sparse area) where another airplane could be very near you, unannounced. I would appreciate it if you would read the statistics on how fatal accidents occur this way, usually in or near the pattern. This should have been taught early on. my taylorcraft, totally rebuilt , was in a fatal , in the pattern at Collins, N?Y. ( sparse territory) with a cub, neither had a radio, cub pilot died, taylorcraft made it down to land. If you feel insulted, that's your problem.
 
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LongRoadBob said:
Last Monday I was mostly controlling the landing for the first time. Up until now I had just followed along with the controls as the CFI landed, but he is pushing (I'm not even yet in the section of my training where I am learning landings officially and being graded on them) me to take over as he is ready to step in if needed.
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That's a little odd to me. I was making (poor) landings with the instructor saving it when I messed up -- on day one. Not sure why your instructor would be holding back on having you at least on the controls the entire time with them. It sounds like you have a syllabus but remember eventually you have to do all of it.

As far as figuring out the pattern, geometry doesn't lie... If you're at pattern altitude and properly spaced away from the runway (sight cues can be things like halfway up a wing strut in a Cessna for example which will put you about right for distance from the runway laterally) and then proceed to 45 degrees off of your tail or so before descending and starting a base turn, you'll be in the same place and distance if you do that at home base, or "abroad".

There's definitely more than one way to accomplish it, but hopefully your instructor is already teaching you a rule of thumb system like the above?

You mentioned there's a lot going on in the pattern. Is it a busy airport or do you mean you feel behind the airplane and the things happening on board? If the latter, I'm either concerned your instructor isn't building via simple building blocks (while the instructor handles the rest until you're ready to take on more items), or isn't taking you somewhere quieter to do some laps away from the busy airport chaos).

If you're overloaded the instructor needs to know that. Let them know. They'll figure out how to offload you a bit so you can focus on aircraft feel and control. It feels like there's a lot to do right at first but that gets better quickly for most folks. If it doesn't, the building block approach is best.

Don't be shy about it. You want to be attempting those landings. That's one of the hardest parts of the beginning of flying and you might as well get your money's worth and get those hands and feet on the controls and doing something. Let the instructor back you up. That's what they're there for. And if something isn't working for you, say something to the instructor.
 
denverpilot said:
That's a little odd to me. I was making (poor) landings with the instructor saving it when I messed up -- on day one. Not sure why your instructor would be holding back on having you at least on the controls the entire time with them. It sounds like you have a syllabus but remember eventually you have to do all of it.

As far as figuring out the pattern, geometry doesn't lie... If you're at pattern altitude and properly spaced away from the runway (sight cues can be things like halfway up a wing strut in a Cessna for example which will put you about right for distance from the runway laterally) and then proceed to 45 degrees off of your tail or so before descending and starting a base turn, you'll be in the same place and distance if you do that at home base, or "abroad".

There's definitely more than one way to accomplish it, but hopefully your instructor is already teaching you a rule of thumb system like the above?

You mentioned there's a lot going on in the pattern. Is it a busy airport or do you mean you feel behind the airplane and the things happening on board? If the latter, I'm either concerned your instructor isn't building via simple building blocks (while the instructor handles the rest until you're ready to take on more items), or isn't taking you somewhere quieter to do some laps away from the busy airport chaos).

If you're overloaded the instructor needs to know that. Let them know. They'll figure out how to offload you a bit so you can focus on aircraft feel and control. It feels like there's a lot to do right at first but that gets better quickly for most folks. If it doesn't, the building block approach is best.

Don't be shy about it. You want to be attempting those landings. That's one of the hardest parts of the beginning of flying and you might as well get your money's worth and get those hands and feet on the controls and doing something. Let the instructor back you up. That's what they're there for. And if something isn't working for you, say something to the instructor.
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Thanks for the thoughts but I'm not worried about it taking too long before landing, etc. In fact the school has a syllabus and I'm in "block A" training, which includes takeoffs but not landings until other I have been taught and can competently handle other maneuvers. So we are actually jumping the gun a little but also is is ok.

And yes, at this point I am a little behind the plane in landing patterns. For one thing, on the first 4 flights we've been going straight in for landing, not doing patterns because of time and choice of runway. The last time I flew the wind was blowing from the south and that meant going in (finally) for pattern.

Things are going fine, and progressing, it's just a different system here. Thanks though!
 
LongRoadBob said:
Thanks for the thoughts but I'm not worried about it taking too long before landing, etc. In fact the school has a syllabus and I'm in "block A" training, which includes takeoffs but not landings until other I have been taught and can competently handle other maneuvers. So we are actually jumping the gun a little but also is is ok.

And yes, at this point I am a little behind the plane in landing patterns. For one thing, on the first 4 flights we've been going straight in for landing, not doing patterns because of time and choice of runway. The last time I flew the wind was blowing from the south and that meant going in (finally) for pattern.

Things are going fine, and progressing, it's just a different system here. Thanks though!
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Sounds 141-ish. :) No worries. Have fun.
 
ircphoenix said:
I think naturally you're going to use landmarks at familiar airports over a period of time. Like I know when I'm downwind at SBD, I want to time my base turn so I'm pointed at the In N Out, and then turning final basically over In N Out
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Do you ever fly out of Torrance? I remember eating at the In N Out off of Crenshaw right by the airport there. Good times!:D
 
Ryanb said:
Do you ever fly out of Torrance? I remember eating at the In N Out off of Crenshaw right by the airport there. Good times!:D
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That is my home drome. The place where I can't ever seem to land right. Any other airport... Smooth landings, right on the centerline, stall warning light turning on just as I touch down. Torrance? Float, bounce, too much flare, oops add power to cushion, whoaaa nelly drifting off centerline...

And yeah... That In N Out is always busier than any other in the South Bay. But damned if In N Out doesn't make a fine burger. :D
 
ircphoenix said:
That is my home drome. The place where I can't ever seem to land right. Any other airport... Smooth landings, right on the centerline, stall warning light turning on just as I touch down. Torrance? Float, bounce, too much flare, oops add power to cushion, whoaaa nelly drifting off centerline...

And yeah... That In N Out is always busier than any other in the South Bay. But damned if In N Out doesn't make a fine burger. :D
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Gotcha, I was out staying in Palos Verdes Estates and went down to the In N Out there and passed by TOA, looked like a nice airport. Hopefully I'll be back in March.
 
ircphoenix said:
That is my home drome. The place where I can't ever seem to land right. Any other airport... Smooth landings, right on the centerline, stall warning light turning on just as I touch down. Torrance? Float, bounce, too much flare, oops add power to cushion, whoaaa nelly drifting off centerline...

And yeah... That In N Out is always busier than any other in the South Bay. But damned if In N Out doesn't make a fine burger. :D
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That airport is way too nice these days.

It was a DUMP when I was growing up. I have memories as a kid playing in some rotting old warbird derelict on the south side of the field. Seems to be long gone.

There has been a lot of development on the north side of the field, too. There wasn't much there but the hospital.
 
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