always too high on final....how to fix

midcap

midcap

Pattern Altitude
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midcap
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
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or maybe not soon enough......although I don't fly those high wingy thingies.
 
Start your descent at the end of your downwind. Less throttle might help. Of course, I can't honestly see any harm at all in a slip to final, so long as you can put the aircraft where you want it.
 
steingar said:
I can't honestly see any harm at all in a slip to final
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I would agree with you if it wasn't all the time. Occasionally needing to slip does no harm, but if he is always high he needs to change something. I don't know anything about OP's ratings, but it will not work out so well if he has to slip on every instrument approach.

Get down to the approach speed for your airplane and try to keep a constant angle. Look for the "circle of action" in your windscreen. That will be the point on the runway that seems to be staying still. That is where the airplane will hit if you change nothing. Use this as a flight path vector and place that spot about 1-2 centerline stripes before your intended point of touchdown. When you flare and the airplane stops flying you should be where you wanted the wheels to hit.
 
Not sure what you're doing now, but this is how I was taught* (assuming no gusts or major crosswinds):

At midpoint downwind, come back to about 2000RPM. (This is to slow to full flap operating range)
Abeam the numbers on downwind, come back to about 1700RPM, flaps 20* and start a 500fpm descent (maintain 75kts indicated)
Turn base (maintain 75kts indicated)
Turn final and ONCE ESTABLISHED slow to 65kts indicated. If high, go to flaps 30* and slow to 60kts indicated.

* I'm not an instructor, so take this with a grain of salt. I just figured for not having a documented procedure, you may want to try this one (with an instructor on board)
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
How about descending earlier?
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
I seemed to have this problem on my long xc a couple weeks ago. I attributed it to rust and not flying the whole pattern. When ATC gives you a straight in or join on base it makes it tricky to figure out where you are in the descent phase. If you're flying a pattern and still having tihs problem maybe you're not being patient enough and turning base too soon. My advice, just go do an hour of pattern work and iron it out.
 
Fly your downwind a little longer. It sounds like you're just turning base a little early. Then make sure you're on speed and consistent.

For straight ins, once you're on a stable approach and still far out, look at your aiming point relative to some bug guts on your windshield. If the aiming point is moving downward, back off the throttle a little. If the aiming point is going up, you're short so tap the throttle in a little.
 
midcap said:
Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
What does your CFI have to say?
No, this is not a snarky response. I am serious. If you don't know, don't beat yourself up, we weren't born flying. We learn it over time. If you need more time, ask your CFI what he is observing. (that's what he's for! :) )
And if your CFI doesn't know, you're in trouble. LOL
Nah, just discuss it and have him analyze the situation in the air and see what he/she has to say.

Now don't sweat it and go fly!!
 
steingar said:
Start your descent at the end of your downwind. Less throttle might help. Of course, I can't honestly see any harm at all in a slip to final, so long as you can put the aircraft where you want it.
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More specifically, in no wind, keep your descent rate at 500 FPM throughout. 1500 RPM, full flap, and 500 FPM will get you pretty damn close to 60 knots in a 172. Use higher RPM on final in a wind, to hit your aim point still at 60 KIAS.
 
I'm having the same issue after just recently getting back into flying. I figured out my problem was flying too wide of pattern. I'm used to flying high performance airplanes & flying a wide pattern. I realized in my 182 if I flew a closer downwind but extended it a bit before turning base my altitude on final was much better.

That said, I am old school & like a steep final approach with full flaps. Unless it's gusty of course. It seems that the newer generation flies a much flatter approach with less flaps.
 
The key is, figure out what works, and then consistently do it. I had a terrible problem of being high on final. I figured out that I wasn't slowing enough (pitch up) after I cut power abeam. Once i figured that out my approaches are pretty consistent.

ETA, i was still turning base at 45' but I was too high. Now when I cut power, I pitch up to slow to 80 rather than letting the plane slow naturally. If I waited till 80 to turn, I wound up being too low.
 
Fly the numbers and trim the airplane. My guess is you aren't getting enough throttle out soon enough. Fly your base at 5 mph higher than your approach speed and get your final flap setting in. Turn final and trim up to loose the 5 mph then use your throttle to adjust your decent rate.

The other issue you might have is if there are obstacles under the approach you may be trying to avoid them by too much. If that's the case choose a spot further down the runway to aim for if you have enough runway to stop. Once you master your approach to that spot start backing it up towards the threshhold.
 
Put down the bong prior to base leg????

:rimshot:
 
When I had this problem, I stopped worrying about rpm settings and concentrated on maintaining a constant rate of descent at all air speeds. It led to my "feeling" my way down, as opposed to trying to adhere to some generic set of numbers that tend to be taught as "gospel" rather than as general guidelines. Once you get the runway numbers to stay in one spot in your window, (not moving up or down), then you've got the feel.

Oh, and spend a lot of time in slow flight. Nothing like practicing controlling the aircraft with the stall horn chirping at you.
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...

I just (as in Tuesday) worked through this myself. My problems were: flying downwind a bit too fast, not pulling enough power abeam the numbers, and before dropping the first notch of flaps (SR20), and too much back pressure during the downwind-to-base and base-to-final turns, killing my descent. If I'm turning final at about 500 AGL, I can pitch for 78kts or so and manage my slope with power.
 
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Good landings are slow landings...that's rule #1. The rest is energy management...you want to have a minimum total energy as you pass over the threshold, and you have three kinds of energy at your disposal. Potential energy is the energy of position and can be compared to altitude. Kinetic energy is the energy of motion: airspeed squared time mass (use aircraft weight). Less airspeed means much less energy (not much you can do about weight on final). The last source of energy is in the fuel tank, and you have the answer to that question in your hand. You don't want to lose potential energy by diving at the runway because that means an alarming increase in kinetic energy at a time when you want less energy. You do want to decrease kinetic energy, and you do that by slowing down and hanging out drag items like flaps (oversimplification, folks, give me a break).

My quick and easy method if I am high turning final is to reduce power, You have been running less than cruise power for several minutes and should not be reluctant to pull the throttle all the way back to idle momentarily to scrub off some altitude. Let's say that your normal speed on final is 80 with 1400 rpm. Pull the throttle to idle.\and maintain 80 with the yoke. About 50 feet above your target altitude return the throttle to 1400. You are ow where you want to be at your desired speed but no longer "too high."

Bob Gardner.
 
Come in low and use power to get to the runway will work, although it takes some skill to do it. Don't get too slow...
 
For a typical pattern, I try to lose 400' from the abeam to the start of the base turn. Then 200' from the base turn to final. Then, end up at about 400' agl when I roll out on final at about 3/4 mile from touchdown. The goal is to roll out on glide slope per the PAPI/VASI. This means a 3 degree glide slope is going to require about 300 fpm descent on final at 60 kts ground speed.

172s don't want to come down right away when you haul the throttle off abeam the numbers. get that throttle back to 1500 and get that first notch of flaps in right away. And, keep from climbing! This means you're gonna most likely need a little nose down, not up. This was my mistake. I'd haul the nose back and climb a couple hundred feet before I slowed down enough for gravity to take over.

Don't forget, the throttle is not on/off switch. Keep using throttle to adjust your sink rate as you vary pitch to control airspeed.
 
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midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
I would hire some one like fast Eddie or Bob gardner to fly with me and get straightened out. You have drifted into bad habits. Or possibly , you did not get good instructor to begin with. Someone with lots of instruction hours rather than a Time builder with not many hours more than you. The cessna your flying is very easily landed and flown, very docile. You Should certainly not have to slip it a s it has nice big flaps unles you just like to. 65 over the fence should be plenty on a 2000 foot runway.
 
BigBadLou said:
What does your CFI have to say?
No, this is not a snarky response. I am serious. If you don't know, don't beat yourself up, we weren't born flying. We learn it over time. If you need more time, ask your CFI what he is observing. (that's what he's for! :) )
And if your CFI doesn't know, you're in trouble. LOL
Nah, just discuss it and have him analyze the situation in the air and see what he/she has to say.

Now don't sweat it and go fly!!
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Last three times he said, "need to bleed off some of this energy"

So I really think I'm coming in way too hot.

The runway is like 6500 feet so i guess subconsciously I'm trying to land further down the runway that I should.
 
Grum.Man said:
Fly the numbers and trim the airplane. My guess is you aren't getting enough throttle out soon enough. Fly your base at 5 mph higher than your approach speed and get your final flap setting in. Turn final and trim up to loose the 5 mph then use your throttle to adjust your decent rate.

The other issue you might have is if there are obstacles under the approach you may be trying to avoid them by too much. If that's the case choose a spot further down the runway to aim for if you have enough runway to stop. Once you master your approach to that spot start backing it up towards the threshhold.
Click to expand...

It's so flat down here, the tallest thing on final is the fence.
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
When you know the problem, you know the fix.
 
Apparently not very well. A big part of knowing how to fly is knowing how to stop flying.
 
Pitch for Airspeed
Power for Altitude.

1. Downwind configure the ac for approach speed. 1.3 x Vref (GUMPS)
2. Abeam the numbers add 1 or 2 notches of flaps, reduce power and pitch for AIRSPEED
3. On base add 2nd notch of flaps if not already done (continue PITCHING for AIRSPEED) using power for ALT.
4. On final add remaining flaps (once runway is assured) and PITCH FOR 1.3 x Vso
5. Over touchdown zone apply gentle back pressure on yoke, gentle application of power for ALT if needed. (i.e. Add or remove)

PJ
 
midcap said:
so..it seems like every final albeit from the pattern or on a straight in I am too high and I end up having to slip the 172 in.
Coming in too fast certainly isn't helping things either.

Am I just not taking out enough throttle? Any tips or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...

High and fast most common cause would be too much power. A less common cause would be an overly tight traffic pattern.

What kind of 172 are you flying?
 
saddletramp said:
That said, I am old school & like a steep final approach with full flaps. Unless it's gusty of course. It seems that the newer generation flies a much flatter approach with less flaps.
Click to expand...

Me too, I like lots of altitude in case something goes south.

Rykymus said:
Oh, and spend a lot of time in slow flight. Nothing like practicing controlling the aircraft with the stall horn chirping at you.
Click to expand...

If you've got the stall horn yammering at you anywhere in the pattern save touchdown you're doing something wrong.

coloradobluesky said:
Come in low and use power to get to the runway will work, although it takes some skill to do it. Don't get too slow...
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Yeah, this works, but if the mill quits you're in for an excursion.
 
steingar said:
Start your descent at the end of your downwind. Less throttle might help. Of course, I can't honestly see any harm at all in a slip to final, so long as you can put the aircraft where you want it.
Click to expand...

Your descent should start at the midpoint of your downwind. Take your pattern altitude and divide by three. Shoot for losing 1/3 of it before base, another third before turning final. So at a 900' field elevation with a 1,000' pattern (my home field) shoot for 1,600' MSL before base, 1,300' MSL turning to final. From that point monitor your aim point (I use the numbers), pitching for the speed I want and adjusting power to keep the aim point steady in your windscreen. If aim point slides up, add a touch of power, if it slides downward, pull out a bit of power.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I would hire some one like fast Eddie or Bob gardner to fly with me and get straightened out. You have drifted into bad habits. Or possibly , you did not get good instructor to begin with. Someone with lots of instruction hours rather than a Time builder with not many hours more than you. The cessna your flying is very easily landed and flown, very docile. You Should certainly not have to slip it a s it has nice big flaps unles you just like to. 65 over the fence should be plenty on a 2000 foot runway.
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I thin
dmspilot said:
High and fast most common cause would be too much power. A less common cause would be an overly tight traffic pattern.

What kind of 172 are you flying?
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I believe it's an M
 
midcap said:
Last three times he said, "need to bleed off some of this energy"
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Frankly, you should not be asking a lot of strangers who are not instructors and your own CFI should be able to correct you or give you hints.
But I agree with others that you need to feel the plane yourself, not worry too much about memorizing RPMs etc (they are for initial guidance only).

SToL said:
Pitch for Airspeed
Power for Altitude.
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^^^^ THAT
Once you establish correct speed (with trim), just fly the plane toward the rwy and use your hand on the power knob to moderate your descent so that you land somewhere at the beginning of the rwy.

Again, talk to your CFI, have him demonstrate, oversee, analyze and correct. That's why you're paying him the big bucks.

And as usual: don't sweat it and ENJOY your lessons, they should be fun. :) (I know I miss mine)
 
Don't sweat it.... Just keep practicing and listening to your instructor. There are lots of variables and ways to skin the cat. My usual way to end up higher than intended on final is to get impatient and turn base too soon. I was taught to look over my shoulder and eyeball a 45 degree angle to the numbers. I combine that with an altitude target, like LDJones suggested. If you do find yourself high, idle power and 40 degrees of flaps will cover a multitude of pattern flying ?sins?. I'm not sure I'd even label being a little high on final a problem. It puts you in a better position to make the field if the engine dies.
 
noobJohn said:
I'm not sure I'd even label being a little high on final a problem. It puts you in a better position to make the field if the engine dies.
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LOTS of people say that, and I can only conclude from it that such people only land on 6000 foot runways.

MANY more accidents occur from forcing the aircraft down when too hot than from the engine quitting on base or final. It's not 1930 anymore.

Not meeting your target altitude and airspeed is a problem. You should be able to control the airplane better than that. The OP has his concerns in the right place.
 
The popular technique for STOL landings is high and steep. Slow high AOA approaches are MUCH safer when flown steep because you can lower the nose to manage airspeed. The notion that a steep approach requires a long runway is incorrect.
 
Stewartb said:
The popular technique for STOL landings is high and steep. Slow high AOA approaches are MUCH safer when flown steep because you can lower the nose to manage airspeed. The notion that a steep approach requires a long runway is incorrect.
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This is a student pilot on a paved runway missing his altitude and airspeed marks, not a STOL pilot in the Alaska backcountry modifying the technique intentionally.

And, do you do those STOL landings at idle? The really short ones seem to use a lot of power.
 
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