Always on ADS-B and Skybeacon/Tailbeacon

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by MarkH, Oct 1, 2019.

  1. MarkH

    MarkH Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    ATL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MarkH
    Reading about ADS-B options leads to a question about the nav light ADSB solutions.

    As I understand, if ADSB is installed it must be on, but nav lights are on a switch. How is this being handled in installations?

    Is it just placarded, is the switch being bypassed, or is there some other solution?
     
  2. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    The installation instructions tell you that the lights must be on.
     
  3. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    6,633
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Unit74
    Install a couple Whelen Chroma lights and never mess with the switch again.
     
  4. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    165
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Mr
    Just got my skybeacon install done last night. It’s just placarded. I could still shut it off with the nav switch.

    I’d like to fly with it today and test it, but there are thunderstorms around.
     
  5. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Silly to force the peasants to install surveillance equipment and allow them to turn it off, that would obviously not please the crown
     
    texasclouds and Eric Stoltz like this.
  6. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    What good does it do if turned off?
     
  7. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    It doesn’t transmit your personal data to anyone with a internet connection and smartphone.

    So I’d say safety/security.
     
  8. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    The tailbacon has an anonymous mode.
     
  9. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    I did not know that, does it also have ADSB in?

    Not shabby!
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  10. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    165
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Mr
    Mmmm, tail bacon.


    6F3DDED4-E0E7-40EE-B779-9D6433093FBD.jpeg
     
  11. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    no. Their EchoUAT does, but that's not for type certificated aircraft.
     
    James331 likes this.
  12. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,195
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Yup. EAB FTW, as always....

    That said, I'll be ordering my skybeacon here in the next couple weeks, since it looks like I'll be holding on to this certified can for a little while longer. It does have anonymous mode, which is a twofer. :D
     
  13. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    Hmmm... so not transmitting ADS-B is safer than having it on. Interesting. Lots of money being wasted. Maybe it’s safer because that black helicopter won’t get you.
     
  14. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,932
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    There is no certification requirement for ABS-B "In".
     
    RyanShort1 likes this.
  15. MarkH

    MarkH Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    ATL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MarkH
    If it is permanently installed then it is treated like any other installed avionics, if it is portable like a Stratus/Sentry/Scout then certification is not required
     
  16. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,932
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    A manufacturer can’t sell any product as an “airplane part” for installation in a certificated airplane without a PMA or TSO. To get around that they label them for experimental use only. Since ADS-B is not required for anyone a spcerificated guy can put an In device in a certificated airplane even though the manufacturer can’t sell it for a certificated airplane. Another example of government intelligence.
     
    RyanShort1 and Bell206 like this.
  17. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    You think the S in ADSB stands for safety?

    It doesn’t
     
    RyanShort1 and Eric Stoltz like this.
  18. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    The S stands for surveillance. Your position being known by others leads to safety. Not a difficult concept to grasp. If you are going to put it on and not power it up, why bother putting it on? The law will require you to turn it on.

    Sounds like a little paranoia here and there in this group. Either that or something to hide.
     
    Squirrelfury likes this.
  19. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    What’s hard to grasp is why I need to broadcast my N number hex, position and altitude for planes and XM radar, that’s cool, but sending my personal info is not needed for anything safety related. You should read up on history, it’s all mostly a rerun and I think you might have missed a few seasons lol

    But hey, please post your full name, DOB, SS, and bank account numbers, unless you have some “paranoia”
     
    PeterNSteinmetz and MuseChaser like this.
  20. southallb

    southallb Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    36
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    southallb
    I am thinking of going with the Tail Beacon, but wiring it to the rotating beacon power...dont want to run with nav lights on all the time.
     
    Weekend Warrior likes this.
  21. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    I have found tail number being displayed to be handy a few times. When they are operating of the same airport, they are usually on the same frequency. You can call them by tail number and coordinate. If you’re not broadcasting you position and altitude, what good could it possibly do? I’m not sure that you have a good grasp on what ADS-B does and how it works.

    My tail number being broadcast for the purpose of traffic control is no problem for me. Of course I am not paranoid or have anything to hide.

    When you find and show me that from my tail number someone can determine the information you indicate, then I will consider it a problem. Until then I will continue being happy with information that helps me stay clear of other planes.
     
  22. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    165
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Mr
    Do you understand what anonymous mode does (and doesn't) do?

    Do you understand the limitations of the ADS-B system?
     
    James331 likes this.
  23. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Seeing I work in the industry I’d wager I get it better than you probably do, again position is fine but zero reason to send my tailnumber.

    If I just want to VFR it, I should be able to fly around without asking for permission or letting any jackass two states away with a internet connection or ADSB to creepily watch my flight and where I go, it’s none of their damn business


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security
     
  24. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    Man! What are you so afraid of?

    Oh look! I see that N1234X belongs to Joe Schmo, of Kansas City is over Oklahoma headed for Texas! Security Alert!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  25. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Afraid of, lolz
    Not really, just a student of history.

    By the way I don’t see where you posted the info I (a random dude who’s just curious) asked for? Afraid?


    It comes down to what my life and way of life is worth, and a cost to benefit.

    My life and way of life is worth TONS to me

    There are some risks broadcasting where my plane and likely self/loved ones are for any private or public crook who might want to know, not a huge risk but a risk, now there is ZERO benefit for me to transmit my N number. Z E R O

    You have zero valid reasons to need the personal info for a traffic target.

    I mean how many people on here post about getting some random person in some podunk airport trying to scam them out of money for “registration” or some such?

    If you read a little history, just say 20th century, big government has been the biggest risk and expense most citizens have in their lives, more so than “mass shooters” or “terrorists” and yet folks get all confused when someone says something is non of anyones damn business, all while turning a blind eye to...say....the TSA feeling your grand kids balls. Priorities lol



    Yeah, trust these people, what’s the worse that could happen
    http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2010/08/31/our-gunpoint-at-the-airport-ordeal-2/

    Or this one


    Or how about this that keeps happening

    [​IMG]


    So no, I don’t want to send more data to be misused in databases that never go away, or really have anyone who I don’t think needs to know, knowing where I am or where I am going.
    Sure I can’t shield myself and my loved ones from all of it, but I can do the best I can to minimize how much of a target I make myself, I can also remind folks who take the gov as their lord and savor of these things they seem to often forget.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  26. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    I explained before, but I will reiterate in more simple terms in hopes that you will understand.

    When ADS-B transmits my SS number, DOB, etc., then I will post that information here.

    Do you now understand what I said?

    Your paranoia is quite remarkable, or is it that you engage in activity you want to hide?
     
    donjohnston and Velocity173 like this.
  27. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    How is it paranoid when I can post how time after time after time data was wrongly used against good people?

    And yes I have LOTS to hide, its called EVERYTHING thats none of anyone's damn business, my location and comings and goings fall under that
     
  28. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,932
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    The concept of ADS-B is good. The execution is crap. When every plane in the air is broadcasting it'll serve a purpose I can get behind. With half the planes in the sky exempt? It provides a dangerous false security. That's not good for anyone.
     
    RyanShort1 and MBDiagMan like this.
  29. soilboy

    soilboy Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    13
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    soilboy
    When ADS-B transmits my SS number, DOB, etc., then I will post that information here.

    Do you now understand what I said?

    Your paranoia is quite remarkable, or is it that you engage in activity you want to hide?

    Your tail # gives your name and address, from which can be found your pilot cert #. That shows your pilot ratings and medical status. With your name and address your phone #, a google earth picture of your property, next of kin, estimated net worth, any business owned, arrest record or any other information.

    I just looked up a Mooney tail # for a guy who lives near Tyler TX, saw a pic of the property, phone # and know he is a PP, ASEL with rotor/helo.

    Seems like a lot of info can be found quickly and for free.
     
    murphey, RyanShort1 and aftCG like this.
  30. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    It’s a solution in search of a problem, it wasn’t exactly raining aircraft before ADSB, mid airs were quite rare and I highly doubt the stats will show much of a reduction, I also haven’t seen a huge jump in what ATC can do for me as a IFR airplane. Frankly it’s a kinda sorta cool on screen tech, mostly nice for some “free” stale weather broadcast, but the real use is it just makes private air travel easily trackable and less private, same road your metadata, bank data, health data, etc is all going.


    And yeah lots or your data is already out there, guess what even with a locked door people can break in, and yet folks still lock their doors for whatever extra safety it may provide.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
    RyanShort1 likes this.
  31. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Yup. Got a phone call last week from a guy that was looking to buy the kind of airplane I own and wanted some general information.
     
    RyanShort1 likes this.
  32. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    That has nothing to do with ADS-B. Google a tail number and you can learn name and address of owner.
     
    Robin Hood likes this.
  33. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Exactly.
    And, ADS-B provides that tail number for any nutcase out there who wants it for whatever reason while, at the same time, providing not a single benefit in terms of traffic separation or safety from that tail number broadcast.
     
    James331 likes this.
  34. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,932
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    ADS-B traffic is a wonderful thing. If it represented all airplanes it would be really useful. Somewhere there’s a good FAA video about ADS-B and controlling the helicopters servicing oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. The ATC advantage is pretty interesting.
     
    RyanShort1 and Robin Hood like this.
  35. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,761
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FWIW: During the GOM testing the gist of the whole program was to reduce aircraft separation distances and increase flight volume within the same airspace. Within 3 months it was proven to have paid off as aircraft at any altitude went from 80-100 mile separation to 5 miles. And since only one helicopter operator volunteered for the program that meant on IFR days they had their entire deep water fleet outbound hours before any of the competition had launched using the old clearance method. Projected savings to the oil companies/operators once applicable GOM fleet was ADSB compliant were at the $50M+ level in 20 years. That's since changed due to the industry slow down. But in watching the GOM program play out I never got the feeling it was designed to encompass all aircraft ops, only those within certain airspaces as the current rules are written. Maybe in 30 years we'll see requirements for everything flying, to include drones, to be ADSB in/out compliant but it will take another regulation APA process or congressional action to force everyone to that level.
     
  36. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,932
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    I remember the original ADS-B being tested as the Capstone Project in western Alaska. Air taxi guys flying in fuzzy air the ground fog and blowing snow against an endless featureless white landscape could keep track of each other and had access to weather info. I knew a few of those guys and they loved it.
     
    murphey likes this.
  37. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,875
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    I'm as strong a critic of ADS-B as you are, but: My Skybeacon lets me turn off the N-number broadcast using anonymous mode.

    Mind you, I suspect it's still sending the hex equivalent.....

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  38. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    19,242
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    So why not also let the same whack jobs know where the plane is all the time and where it’s going?


    [​IMG]
     
  39. chartbundle

    chartbundle Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chartbundle
    That would rather defeat the whole point. Anonymous mode sends a random 24 bit hex code as well(one for the flight).

    Now, as to why the FAA didn't allow it for 1090, who knows.
     
    wanttaja likes this.
  40. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    Wow! Paranoia seems to be running rampant around here.