Always on ADS-B and Skybeacon/Tailbeacon

[hindsight2020]

I haven't had negative repercussions. I routinely turn off ads-out in my work airplane. ATC doesn't appear to me to be tracking the adsb dynamics all that closely. No different to me than having a mode c outage. Its just not that big a deal on a day to day basis and nobody is getting suspended over it. N=1 data point and what you paid for it, but there ya go.

 

[James331]

Isn't the cat already out of the bag if I'm flying with flight following or on an IFR flight plan? I already am broadcasting my tail number any time I talk to ATC. You can track my tail number on Flight Aware. Is this substantially different?

Same guy said that about having 14” N numbers, would have thought it insane to be able to search on a device in his pocket and find out who owned a plane and their address.

Same guy who said that about the FAA making the database of registrations available would have thought it insane to have to broadcast your N number 24/7 and GPS position and altitude for anyone to be able to track.

Wonder what y’all think would be insane that will be the norm in 10 years.


Got to go see how my cooked frog is coming along.

 

[PPC1052]

Same guy said that about having 14” N numbers, would have thought it insane to be able to search on a device in his pocket and find out who owned a plane and their address.

Same guy who said that about the FAA making the database of registrations available would have thought it insane to have to broadcast your N number 24/7 and GPS position and altitude for anyone to be able to track.

Wonder what y’all think would be insane that will be the norm in 10 years.


Got to go see how my cooked frog is coming along.

I understand where you are coming from. However, my question was an honest one, not rhetorical. Is there a difference? If so, what is it?

 

[wanttaja]

Do you have ADS-B installed? Is it required for your flying?

Yes, I installed it in August. My home airport is within the Sea-Tac Class B veil. My aircraft has an electrical system, although it is not type-certificated.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[MBDiagMan]

I sure can’t see the difference.

If you are flight following or IFR your tail number is entered and associated with the return on their screen as well as viewable on flightaware or with ADS-B IN. So, what’s the difference other than the source of the tail number?

 

[Weekend Warrior]

I sure can’t see the difference.

If you are flight following or IFR your tail number is entered and associated with the return on their screen as well as viewable on flightaware or with ADS-B IN. So, what’s the difference other than the source of the tail number?

For me, just making a quick check of my logs, is that only 7.5% of my flying is IFR or with flight following. Without ADS-B, 92.5% of my flying is anonymous.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Understand, but what’s the difference how the number gets in the system? The question is the difference in data availability once it IS in the system. I also do more than my share of cruising around the lakes boring a hole in the sky. That’s why I kept my little taildragger. So what difference does that make.

 

[chemgeek]

In my short experience with ADS-B traffic, I can at this point conclude:

1. There is a LOT more nearby traffic than I ever imagined on every flight.
2. You are not likely to visually spot an aircraft, even with the assistance of the fish finder, if it is more than 2 nm away. (I can nearly always find them if within the 2 nm ring.)

Overall, ADS-B is terrific situational awareness of traffic. But it won't see everyone, and you still have to look.

 

[chemgeek]

Understand, but what’s the difference how the number gets in the system? The question is the difference in data availability once it IS in the system. I also do more than my share of cruising around the lakes boring a hole in the sky. That’s why I kept my little taildragger. So what difference does that make.

From Flightaware or other tracking app, nothing. In the air, I can see your tail # on my ADS-B display if you are broadcasting ADS-B, but not if you are mode C going through TIS-B relay. I don't really see how seeing your tail number in the air is a significant risk of any sort, certainly not worth disabling your ADS-B. But if you are engaged with ATC, your number is likely entered in the system anyway with your radar return. You have no choice really if IFR.

 

[James331]

For me, just making a quick check of my logs, is that only 7.5% of my flying is IFR or with flight following. Without ADS-B, 92.5% of my flying is anonymous.

That.

And adding more to the data that sent out is a bad thing.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Yeah, sending out that data so people can know and avoid is a horrible thing. Good grief!

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Understand, but what’s the difference how the number gets in the system? The question is the difference in data availability once it IS in the system. I also do more than my share of cruising around the lakes boring a hole in the sky. That’s why I kept my little taildragger. So what difference does that make.

Sure there’s a difference — those who are not choosing to utilize FF or an IFR flight plan are scooped up as well. From an earlier post —

700 sales of a $24 button generated 1.1 million ads-b noise complaints as of Dec '18.

https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-airplane-noise-20181231-story.html

Deckert says she firmly believes complaining makes a difference, so she tries to do her part each day. When her Airnoise button arrived in August, she hooked it onto a red, white and blue lanyard so she’d have it with her all the time — in the morning when she’s making breakfast, in the afternoon while she’s puttering around the house and in the evening when she’s watching her favorite mystery shows on PBS. The button has clearly gotten a lot of use: The plastic coating is partially peeled off. A few weeks ago, the battery gave out. So for now, she’s using her iPad to file complaints.

“People can try to discredit me, but I don’t worry about that,” she said. She paused and remembered the day she filed her first complaint with the Airnoise button.

“It felt so good,” she said. “It’s highly, highly therapeutic. It makes you feel like you can make a difference.”​

That’s 1,571 complaints per button.

And, having a noise complaint filed against you did not mean you made the offending noise, you just happened to be the ads-b out ping that was nearest to the button pusher's location.

But the false accusation is linked to you, and visible to the ninny button pusher through the FAA’s public database.

More misuses like this to come.

 

[MuseChaser]

Yeah, sending out that data so people can know and avoid is a horrible thing. Good grief!

I see both sides of the argument. Like @chemgeek posted recently, after flying with adsb in for a while, I too am amazed at how much more traffic is in the skies around me than I had realized, and am grateful for the extra situational awareness. However, neither I nor anyone else needs to know anything other than location, speed, altitude, and weight/size of those traffic blips for safety reasons. The tail number, which typically leads to the pilot's personal information for most of us, is purely surveillance of private citizens and completely unnecesaary.
I LOVE having the extra traffic info..it's a tremendous boon to safety. Tail numbers are not traffic info.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Tailnumber also shows up whenever entered by ATC for any reason such as FF or IFR whether you have ADS-B or not.

 

[MuseChaser]

Tailnumber also shows up whenever entered by ATC for any reason such as FF or IFR whether you have ADS-B or not.

For me, just making a quick check of my logs, is that only 7.5% of my flying is IFR or with flight following. Without ADS-B, 92.5% of my flying is anonymous.

And the circle is complete...

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

And the circle is complete...

Funny how some folk are so insistant that others should have no problem giving up their privacy.

Yet this one continues to post anonymously here.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I certainly don’t insist that anyone do ANYTHING that they don’t want to do. Most everything in this world is conditional. An employer will typically only pay you under the condition that you do your job. I can only drive my car under the condition that I obey the traffic laws. I don’t HAVE to work for pay or drive a car. If I don’t like the conditions I can not work for someone. If I don’t like staying within the speed limits I can choose not to drive. By the same token, if You have something to hide and don’t want your tail number seen when required You can choose not to fly.

It’s all very simple. I didn’t set forth the requirements for ADS-B, but I like and sometimes need to fly so I obey the law.

Unfortunately life is made up of choices and no one is forcing you to choose to fly. The only thing in life I remember that involved no viable choice was when I was forced to honor my military obligation in 1968.

 

[Stewartb]

Its about WHERE you fly. You have options. If you don’t exercise those? Your choice.

ADS-B isn’t required in Alaska. I have it in my Cub. I’m on the fence whether to add “out” in the Cessna but its had “in” for several years. Lots of planes here don’t have transponders so they’ll never show up as traffic, but there’s more to ADS-B than traffic.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I certainly don’t insist that anyone do ANYTHING that they don’t want to.

No, you have no power to insist, but you’ll come here repeatedly (and anonymously) to mock those who are not happy making private info public. Sad.

Maybe it’s safer because that black helicopter won’t get you.

Sounds like a little paranoia here and there in this group. Either that or something to hide.

My tail number being broadcast for the purpose of traffic control is no problem for me. Of course I am not paranoid or have anything to hide

Man! What are you so afraid of?

Oh look! I see that N1234X belongs to Joe Schmo, of Kansas City is over Oklahoma headed for Texas! Security Alert!!

Your paranoia is quite remarkable, or is it that you engage in activity you want to hide?

Wow! Paranoia seems to be running rampant around here.

 

[Stewartb]

Perpetuate a divide in opinion. The new American pastime.

I haven't had negative repercussions. I routinely turn off ads-out in my work airplane. ATC doesn't appear to me to be tracking the adsb dynamics all that closely. No different to me than having a mode c outage. Its just not that big a deal on a day to day basis and nobody is getting suspended over it. N=1 data point and what you paid for it, but there ya go.

I called FSDO last year to ask why non-required equipment is required to be used if the plane is equipped. I mentioned the FAA’s inability to cloak my N number even when I’ve filed the form to restrict it. The inspector I spoke with told me to turn it off if I wanted to. He didn’t think anybody would notice or care. As it turns out I don’t care if my N number is out there, but I have the option if I change my mind.

The OP asked a very good question. Too bad it had to get derailed by the conspiracy theorists. The same guys beat that tired drum every chance they get. Pulling a breaker is taking action. Beating the lack of privacy topic to death solves nothing.

 

[AKBill]

Does ADSB pick up mode C transponders?

 

[Stewartb]

TIS-B translates Mode C when in a radar environment, so the answer is sometimes.

 

[MBDiagMan]

No, you have no power to insist, but you’ll come here repeatedly (and anonymously) to mock those who are not happy making private info public. Sad.

Sorry, but when you choose to own and fly an airplane, your tail number is public information. Sorry to be the one that has to break such Earth shattering news to you.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Sorry, but when you choose to own and fly an airplane, your tail number is public information. Sorry to be the one that has to break such Earth shattering news to you.

Well, in 30 seconds, based on the N number in your profile, I was able to see, in the open and without registering on a website:

Your name, address, birthdate, and family members.

Your workplace and title prior to retirement, your political party registration, religion, race, and a nice photo of yourself.

Your marital state and spouse’s name. The make, model, and year of your last 4 vehicles.

As well as an estimate of your net worth and income.

All of this is now available to Walter Wackadoodle who owns a house near the airport and is enraged at how noisy your mooney is, and that you just woke him from his nap.

ADS-B and the proliferation of private tracking sites now makes personally identifying you, your immediate location, and your personal info a click away from anyone at any time.

If you think this is OK, that’s fine with me. I’m not going to ridicule you.

If you were naive and didn’t think this was the current state, reply with a request and I’ll happily post the links where this info is residing.

 

[Stewartb]

All that info is available without ADS-B. With a cheap app on my iPhone I have the complete FAA N number registry in my pocket. No cell service required. I use it every day.

If you're a regulation abiding pilot ADS-B would be a pretty defense against bogus complaints.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

I have my registration linked to PO BOX address, so there may be some insulation from data linkage.

One question though, if I’m in anonymous mode, and I get flight following or get an IFR clearance, do I have to reprogram my ADSB out to use my aircraft ID, or will ATC just link my tail number on their screens?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

All that info is available without ADS-B. With a cheap app on my iPhone I have the complete FAA N number registry in my pocket. No cell service required. I use it every day.

If you're a regulation abiding pilot ADS-B would be a pretty defense against bogus complaints.

No. Not associated with real time or archived position data, when FF or IFR services are not being utilized, it isn’t.

Mark I eyeball spotting excepted. And that’s a whole different privacy animal.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I have my registration linked to PO BOX address, so there may be some insulation from data linkage.

One question though, if I’m in anonymous mode, and I get flight following or get an IFR clearance, do I have to reprogram my ADSB out to use my aircraft ID, or will ATC just link my tail number on their screens?

When you punch in squawk code other than 1200, anonymous reporting ceases on those boxes capable of and set up for anonymous.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

I just installed my TailBeacon and flew the certification flight only, but it seemed that before switching from a squawk code of 1200, my aircraft was showing its call sign on FLYQ. After I switched to the FF squawk code, nothing changed. There must be something in the initial programming of my TailBeacon that needs to be altered to allow for anonymous mode then.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I just installed my TailBeacon and flew the certification flight only, but it seemed that before switching from a squawk code of 1200, my aircraft was showing its call sign on FLYQ. After I switched to the FF squawk code, nothing changed. There must be something in the initial programming of my TailBeacon that needs to be altered to allow for anonymous mode then.

See page 28 in this file.

https://uavionix.com/downloads/skyb...er-and-Installation-Guide-UAV-1001421-001.pdf

 

[James331]

Sorry, but when you choose to own and fly an airplane, your tail number is public information. Sorry to be the one that has to break such Earth shattering news to you.

So you feel entitled to my info being forced to be broadcast because I own and paid for my own plane?

I take it you are 100% onboard with making the full medical records of anyone who takes VA/medicare or any other public benefit?

Full school records, home address, pictures of any kid in public school?

Will push to have your car driven on public roads tracked and a website for people to watch where you go

etc etc etc

If you like being a exhibitionist thats strange, but you do you

 

[James331]

Well, in 30 seconds, based on the N number in your profile, I was able to see, in the open and without registering on a website:

Your name, address, birthdate, and family members.

Your workplace and title prior to retirement, your political party registration, religion, race, and a nice photo of yourself.

Your marital state and spouse’s name. The make, model, and year of your last 4 vehicles.

As well as an estimate of your net worth and income.

All of this is now available to Walter Wackadoodle who owns a house near the airport and is enraged at how noisy your mooney is, and that you just woke him from his nap.

ADS-B and the proliferation of private tracking sites now makes personally identifying you, your immediate location, and your personal info a click away from anyone at any time.

If you think this is OK, that’s fine with me. I’m not going to ridicule you.

If you were naive and didn’t think this was the current state, reply with a request and I’ll happily post the links where this info is residing.

Which site are you using for that?

 

[Stewartb]

 

[MBDiagMan]

So you feel entitled to my info being forced to be broadcast because I own and paid for my own plane?

I take it you are 100% onboard with making the full medical records of anyone who takes VA/medicare or any other public benefit?

Full school records, home address, pictures of any kid in public school?

Will push to have your car driven on public roads tracked and a website for people to watch where you go

etc etc etc

If you like being a exhibitionist thats strange, but you do you

Good grief! You make the jump from someone knowing your tail number to that meaning that deep personal records should be disclosed. I hate to break it to you, but it will be impossible to hide your tail number unless you leave it in the hangar and never let anyone see it, meaning never fly it. Then if you DO slip up and someone sees you taking it down the taxiway for a little exercise and gets your tail number, guess what? The only information they can derive from that is your name and address. Have you ever noticed that it’s kind of hard to keep your name and address in Top Secret status?

Sorry, but your analogy’s are completely irrational and illogical. Those of us that are in touch with the real world know that people knowing our address does not get them our medical records.

Best of luck.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Well, in 30 seconds, based on the N number in your profile, I was able to see, in the open and without registering on a website:

Your name, address, birthdate, and family members.

Your workplace and title prior to retirement, your political party registration, religion, race, and a nice photo of yourself.

Your marital state and spouse’s name. The make, model, and year of your last 4 vehicles.

As well as an estimate of your net worth and income.

All of this is now available to Walter Wackadoodle who owns a house near the airport and is enraged at how noisy your mooney is, and that you just woke him from his nap.

ADS-B and the proliferation of private tracking sites now makes personally identifying you, your immediate location, and your personal info a click away from anyone at any time.

If you think this is OK, that’s fine with me. I’m not going to ridicule you.

If you were naive and didn’t think this was the current state, reply with a request and I’ll happily post the links where this info is residing.

What? No SS number or medical records? The sky is falling.

 

[donjohnston]

ADS-B will only provide the N-number. If you’re so worried about someone knowing who you are and where you’re flying, register your aircraft in a Corp that based in a state which make finding out who principles of the Corp difficult.

 

[RyanShort1]

I’m curious about how many of the naysayers have flown very much with ADS-B and have seen the advantages. In flight weather and traffic just hasn’t appeared to be a bad thing to me.

I have and plenty of us are with @James331 on this. I’m in a business where if you could figure out what kind of things I photograph for other people you could definitely use that against me, or a client of mine, or figure out a way to leverage that data for business reasons. There is absolutely no reason my specific tail number needs to be in the public domain for “safety” reasons. Assigned transponder code and aircraft TYPE would be sufficient without narrowing it down to “Celebrity X”s Learjet just left San Antonio for Memphis. Your knowing my personal car’s or airplane’s whereabouts at any given time has nothing to do with hiding my personal information. It is a security threat to know that there is a 99% likelihood to know that Larry is enroute to Sacramento which means he’s probably going to be gone when a thief’s buddy breaks in. It makes my house and your house and hangar vulnerable to being broken into by anyone, anywhere who no longer needs to physically surveil almost any pilot a personal aircraft to determine your whereabouts. My faith is similar to yours, mbdiagman and we’ve met, but the book starting with a B teaches that all men are sinners, which does cause me to have a reasonable suspicion that anyone can choose to do me harm if their sin nature gets the better of them. Giving them more info is a solution for precious little.

 

[RyanShort1]

Also, if you think the corporate shielding of your aircraft tail number is sufficient; all it takes is one curious fan doing some research and posting it on the internet and bam you’re tied to the LLC. I’ve looked up dozens of other photo bird’s registrations just out of curiousity with regards to who / what competition is operating in the area and it’s relatively easy to figure out most of the time. Again, TYPE of aircraft should be sufficient for safety reasons.

 

[James331]

Good grief! You make the jump from someone knowing your tail number to that meaning that deep personal records should be disclosed. I hate to break it to you, but it will be impossible to hide your tail number unless you leave it in the hangar and never let anyone see it, meaning never fly it. Then if you DO slip up and someone sees you taking it down the taxiway for a little exercise and gets your tail number, guess what? The only information they can derive from that is your name and address. Have you ever noticed that it’s kind of hard to keep your name and address in Top Secret status?

Sorry, but your analogy’s are completely irrational and illogical. Those of us that are in touch with the real world know that people knowing our address does not get them our medical records.

Best of luck.

And if anyone really wants to know they can dig up what you hold personal too, so why not just post it on here?

Point is, just like posting your SS DOB etc here, there is zero reason for me to broadcast my N number, it doesn’t make me, or you any “safer”, thus I’d rather not send it out to any idiot with a ADSB box or smartphone.

There is zero legitimate reason those transponders should be sending that info out, zero

 

[MuseChaser]

When Google started putting pictures of my house on Google Earth, I contacted them and requested that they blur out my property, explaining that I like my privacy. They eventually acquiesced for a while, but sent me a snarky emailing explaining that what they did by posting the pics wasn't showing anything more than what anyone could see walking past my house. I sent back an equally snarky email explaining that I live out of town, it's very rare for almost seven billion people to walk past my house, and if I wanted to make it easier for those seven billion people to visit my house, I'd move into a huge city. If you want to walk by, please do. I hope you're in shape... it's going to be a long walk.

This is the same thing. Exactly. Broadcast information essential to safety and separation, i.e., location including altitude, speed, and type? Absolutely, and glad for it. Unique personal identifiers of private citizens against their wishes? Absolutely not, and completely useless for any good purposes.