All three Las Vegas airports will charge a $3,000 landing fee during F1 races

[Tusayan]

How is this different from a city closing off streets to hold an Indycar race? Those streets are built with taxpayer money.

Or what about sports stadiums in major cities? Those are almost always built with taxpayer dollars. Priced tickets for a pro sports event lately?

It is different than shutting down the streets for a Indycar race because in that case the streets are being repurposed in the public interest for a period and during that period nobody can commute on them for any price/bribe. Like the Reno Air Races or an air show closing the airport while in progress.

Sport stadiums are like airports in that the land cost and civil engineering may be publicly funded but you still pay the team for your particular event at the facility, like you pay the FBO for the value they add to your visit to an airport. One can then ask why a publicly funded stadium can charge exorbitantly for parking, and I would agree with the argument that they should not.

 

[WDD]

If they didn't hit you with a fee, we would just fly in and out all day and do drops. That's a lot of movement to cover with the extra workers amd equipment they'll have to truck in. Gotta cover that cost somehow. Supply and demand seems like it's in full effect. They are just lucky they keep it at 3k. These owners would pay 10s of thousands to fly in for theses events. They don't even look at the costs.

A puzzle. A jet landing, dropping passengers off, buying fuel, and taking off makes money or breaks even for the airport. So how does it suddenly cost $3000 in wear and tear on the concrete to land and take off, or to park? How does taking money for fuel sales cost $3000 for each plane?

It’s not as if they need to build de icing booths or other temporary infrastructure.

Say 100 jets land for this event. How does this combined with the all the additional money they will make from fuel sales create an extra $300,000 in costs?

 

[luvflyin]

I owned a Harley for a few years, an FLHX. Pretty bike, rode well for what it was, but I eventually grew bored with 65hp driving 800# and no cornering clearance.

What was the limit on clearance? Pipes or boards? I had an FLHR. Vance and Hines made an exhaust the gave more room than stock. Don’t remember the manufacturer but there were high performance shocks you get get. There was a Cartridge Emulator for up front, I bought it through Drag, don’t remember who made it. Those, and this, https://www.true-track.com/ plus being a tall guy and could hang way off gave me some pretty good twisties performance. Couldn’t keep up with all the Rotch Crocketeers but had more than a few of them scrathin’ their heads.

 

[iamtheari]

I’m skeptical that the insurance companies look at traffic by day…

No, but FBO managers might look at coverage limits and the chance and magnitude of some kind of “oops” on the ramp and decide to get a short term umbrella policy. I’m not saying they do, only that this is one of the many factors that might justify the high ramp fees as something other than a cash grab.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If a county government can set arbitrary landing fees without input from the public, they can effectively close the airport.

They did have input from the public. The public established whatever airport board oversees the county airports, and tasked that board to manage the airports.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A puzzle. A jet landing, dropping passengers off, buying fuel, and taking off makes money or breaks even for the airport. So how does it suddenly cost $3000 in wear and tear on the concrete to land and take off, or to park? How does taking money for fuel sales cost $3000 for each plane?

It’s not as if they need to build de icing booths or other temporary infrastructure.

Say 100 jets land for this event. How does this combined with the all the additional money they will make from fuel sales create an extra $300,000 in costs?

The county incurred costs preparing For the F1, just not at the airport necessarily. they’re charging those who are attending to recoup those costs.

 

[danhagan]

This ought to make you even madder:

So my high school buddy flew there in his own GA plane to get married a couple of weeks ago. He ended up landing in SW Utah and renting a car to drive into Vegas ... reason? EVERY airport was NOTAMed closed to transient aircraft. I called several for him and they indicated they were not allowing transient aircraft at ANY of the fields ... there was no mention of a huge fee, just straight up CLOSED.

 

[dans2992]

This ought to make you even madder:

So my high school buddy flew there in his own GA plane to get married a couple of weeks ago. He ended up landing in SW Utah and renting a car to drive into Vegas ... reason? EVERY airport was NOTAMed closed to transient aircraft. I called several for him and they indicated they were not allowing transient aircraft at ANY of the fields ... there was no mention of a huge fee, just straight up CLOSED.

Can someone get the FAA involved here? Surely this can’t be legal.

Isn’t AOPA supposed to engage on stuff like this?

 

[dans2992]

The county incurred costs preparing For the F1, just not at the airport necessarily. they’re charging those who are attending to recoup those costs.

What if I’m just flying in to visit relatives? Are they going to waive the fee?

 

[172andyou]

If they’re allowed to charge $3k, then effectively any municipality could shut down an airport by establishing a $3m landing fee, right?

This is a point that deserves to be considered.

Someone else mentioned raising tolls on the roads. FWIW: Congestion pricing is a thing.

Anyway, the solution this time is pretty easy. The landing fee is in place the 14th through 18th. So arrive the 13th, leave the 19th, use the $3K you saved to pay for the extra hotel nights and enjoy the city.

 

[MauleSkinner]

What if I’m just flying in to visit relatives? Are they going to waive the fee?

No, you’d be choosing to help the county pay off it’s expenses.

 

[Salty]

This is a point that deserves to be considered.

Someone else mentioned raising tolls on the roads. FWIW: Congestion pricing is a thing.

Anyway, the solution this time is pretty easy. The landing fee is in place the 14th through 18th. So arrive the 13th, leave the 19th, use the $3K you saved to pay for the extra hotel nights and enjoy the city.

Sounds like a good plan, but the sign plainly states:

The $3,000 fee will apply to all transient aircraft utilizing any space on the airfield from 14-18, including private/commercial hangars, shade hangars, or open ramp parking spaces.

 

[Half Fast]

Anyway, the solution this time is pretty easy. The landing fee is in place the 14th through 18th. So arrive the 13th, leave the 19th, use the $3K you saved to pay for the extra hotel nights and enjoy the city.

Uh, no.

It's not a "landing fee." It's a charge for having the aircraft on airport property over those dates. So doing what you suggest would mean paying the normal parking fee for the 13th - 19th plus an extra $3k for the 14th-18th.



Now, the fee applies to transient aircraft, so maybe you could become non-transient by renting a tie-down spot for a month or two and come out ahead.

 

[172andyou]

Sounds like a good plan, but the sign plainly states:

Of course I was mostly joking. But this says specifically "arrivals". Nothing about parking. If someone wanted to try and play games, this is the documentation to use.

https://hnd.aero/Forms/FBORequest

"Event Fee Applies: $3000/Arrival November 14-18, 2023"
"This fee applies to all arrivals."
In another document: "A PPR Number, issued via the hnd.aero website (FBO Notice of Arrival/Fee Estimate Tab) is required for each landing of itinerant aircraft" (boldface mine)

 

[Nick Geber]

So it's not about the space allocation, it's about the money.

Surprise.

If Joe Blow has a hangar on airport with space, and decides to allocate, rent, or otherwise permit another aircraft land and taxi directly to that hangar, not utilizing any FBO ramp space or other services, Henderson will still step in on Nov 14-18 and charge their $3000 fee.

Yes. I have an unoccupied tie down at the South Ramp and that is what I was told. Anyone other than me using it gets to pay 3k

 

[Salty]

Yes. I have an unoccupied tie down at the South Ramp and that is what I was told. Anyone other than me using it gets to pay 3k

sell Vinyl with your n number on it for a grand.

 

[Salty]

on that note, I have a problem with them charging for the use of property already paid for. That’s bs.

 

[squincher]

The county incurred costs preparing For the F1, just not at the airport necessarily. they’re charging those who are attending to recoup those costs.

So, we should expect to see toll booths going up on every road into the county during the race so those who drive in can help pay? I mean, no one HAS to drive into the county during those dates either, if they don't want to help pay the bill even though they aren't going to the race, right?

 

[Zeldman]

I am surprised the casino owners haven't spoken up by now.

Oh, and for those that read this, you owe me 3000 samolians...the money, not people from Somalia...

(why hasn't anyone thought of charging for reading threads here on PoA before.??)

 

[MauleSkinner]

So, we should expect to see toll booths going up on every road into the county during the race so those who drive in can help pay? I mean, no one HAS to drive into the county during those dates either, if they don't want to help pay the bill even though they aren't going to the race, right?

you can expect whatever you want. I’m just pointing out that the county has determined this fee is how they’re going to recoup costs, and if anyone flies into that particular ****hole at that particular time, it’s going to cost.

 

[FPK1]

This ought to make you even madder:

So my high school buddy flew there in his own GA plane to get married a couple of weeks ago. He ended up landing in SW Utah and renting a car to drive into Vegas ... reason? EVERY airport was NOTAMed closed to transient aircraft. I called several for him and they indicated they were not allowing transient aircraft at ANY of the fields ... there was no mention of a huge fee, just straight up CLOSED.

Did you ask any why all were closed?

 

[danhagan]

Did you ask any why all were closed?

They said they had "an event" and were not accepting transient traffic.

 

[FlyingElvii]

If they didn't hit you with a fee, we would just fly in and out all day and do drops. That's a lot of movement to cover with the extra workers amd equipment they'll have to truck in. Gotta cover that cost somehow. Supply and demand seems like it's in full effect. They are just lucky they keep it at 3k. These owners would pay 10s of thousands to fly in for theses events. They don't even look at the costs.

This is a first-time F1 Street Race in Las Vegas. It is a “Must-Attend-and-Be-Seen-At” for the chattering class. Cost will be no object or deterrent to many attending.

Long ago when we were planning for the First F1 at Indianapolis, an Indycar official described it like this.
The difference in money levels will astonish you.

Nascar- A bunch of guys at the factory say “Let’s go racing this weekend!” and pile into a borrowed 1978 Winnebago.

Indycar- A bunch of Stock Traders at the Chicago Board of Trade say “ Let’s go racing this weekend!” and pile into a rented RV Bus.

Formula1 - The Prince of Brunei says “Let’s go racing this weekend!, and charters two 747’s to bring in 600 of his closest friends.

 

[FlyingElvii]

Did you ask any why all were closed?

NBAA-BACE??
The ramps were probably full.

 

[dans2992]

NBAA-BACE??
The ramps were probably full.

I flew into HND for NBAA (with a reservation). I can tell you, the ramp was not full. :/

 

[Nick Geber]

I flew into HND for NBAA (with a reservation). I can tell you, the ramp was not full. :/

Yes, I am based at HND and can corroborate that. The new jet ramp that was built housed the NBAA-BACE exhibits. There was plenty of space elsewhere (transient piston parking) and the south ramp, where I am tied down was as usual only about 1/2 full.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Continuing the shenanigans, F1 apparently has convinced Vegas authorities to put up privacy screens on walkways where pedestrians could potentially watch the race for free, under "Safety Concerns".

Which are promptly being vandalized.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

"LVMPD cited a few occasions where they had crushing crowds to get up to the edge of the street to see parades and other celebrations," Miller said. "They don't want to see that for Formula 1. Therefore, we will have screens so people can't congregate there to see the race."
The screening techniques will be on all the pedestrian bridges on the track.

The owner of Miller Project Management, Terry Miller, said the privacy screens were a recommendation by the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department to keep people safe.

Formula 1 says pedestrian bridges are to be 'enclosed' to ensure safety on the track

Mixed opinions arise on the Formula 1 pedestrian bridges from Las Vegas Strip visitors, but the main goal is to keep people safe on the race track, according to Metro police.

www.ktnv.com

 

[Martin Pauly]

Man, am I glad I don't live in Las Vegas. Sounds like this problem is much bigger than just airport fees.

- Martin

 

[MauleSkinner]

Man, am I glad I don't live in Las Vegas.

- Martin

…or have any other reason to go there.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Las Vegas properties around F1 circuit could have views obstructed unless fee is paid

KTNV obtained an F1 fact sheet that explains Las Vegas properties around the circuit will need to pay a fee of $1,500 times the venue's occupancy, or views may be blocked.

www.ktnv.com

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Las Vegas properties around F1 circuit could have views obstructed unless fee is paid​

Channel 13 has obtained from a source and an F1 fact sheet, explaining what restaurants or bars with views of the race will have to do to become an official venue for the Las Vegas circuit.​

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It states a licensing fee will cost the maximum occupancy of the location times $1,500. It gives an example that a location with 30 people would face a licensing fee of $45,000.​

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For that buy-in, businesses will be able to use Las Vegas circuit marketing material and get support from F1. The fact sheet also states the Las Vegas Grand Prix will use reasonable efforts to maintain "sightedness" from the licensee's venue to the track. ​

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"I think Formula 1 is aware of the prestige that it has," Boyd said. "What is surprising is the very high fee based upon total occupancy. Not all businesses have the resources to be held hostage."​

 

[Bob Noel]

Whatever people do, don’t let the money grubbers know that people can hear the race for free…

 

[Salty]

It's hard to see how a business could possibly make $1,500 from every customer during this period. You'd be a fool to pay the fee. I'd be advertising my venue as being a sanctuary away from F1. I always thought these event were supposed to bring money to the local economy, not drain it out.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Relevant???

The Mob Museum Celebrates the Return of F1 to Vegas! - Collector Car Guide

THE MOB MUSEUM TO CELEBRATE RETURN OF FORMULA 1 LAS VEGAS GRAND PRIX WITH HISTORY OF RACING AND RACKETEERS IN LAS VEGAS

www.collectorcarguide.net

 

[Sudburian]

The three airports HND, LAS and VGT are all owned and operated by Clark County, Nevada.
My note to the county airport manager has gone unanswered for a few weeks now. I told him I believe this pricing violated federal grant assurances that the airport needs to be open to the public without discrimination.
Also asked AOPA why they aren't making a lot of noise about this...haven't heard back from them either.
The video does no contain at least one obvious error. Any quotes from Atlantic and Signature for ramp fees would be in addition to the $3000 county fee. So the "bargain" $1500 facility fee he cited at Atlantic LAS (plus parking, plus handling if not fueled) is not a bargain. FBOs at HND and VGT are county-run rather than private. As far as I can tell Boulder City NV BVU is not extorting pilots for those times, so for the cost of a Lyft or Uber you can still go there. I may use BVU exclusively in the future just on principle.
Jon

Lawyer here though not in aviation law, and I think you’re on the right track. There are federal regulations, statutes, and possibly even constitutional restrictions that might apply here. And then there are Nevada state laws and Nevada state constitutional issues. Lawyers who knows this stuff need to dig into it and AOPA is best-positioned to do just that. Hit these folks with public records requests too, to dig up background materials that might be helpful. Nevada probably has a FOIA equivalent.

Update: Nevada Public Records Act

 

[aterry1067]

I lived in Vegas when they had the Grand Prix in 2007 in the downtown streets of Las Vegas. I wanted to go, but I didn’t want to fight through the traffic so I stayed home. It turned out, everyone else had the same idea and rumors were it was poorly attended. The tv coverage and later videos were awesome though. They removed the street race from the calendar for 2008 and it went back to LV Motor Spreedway.


If the casinos even get a hint that they will lose money, F1 will be gone. The casinos and their management run that town.

 

[Sudburian]

A puzzle. A jet landing, dropping passengers off, buying fuel, and taking off makes money or breaks even for the airport. So how does it suddenly cost $3000 in wear and tear on the concrete to land and take off, or to park? How does taking money for fuel sales cost $3000 for each plane?

It’s not as if they need to build de icing booths or other temporary infrastructure.

Say 100 jets land for this event. How does this combined with the all the additional money they will make from fuel sales create an extra $300,000 in costs?

These are the right questions to ask, because the county’s “cost” argument seems nonsensical to me. The county encourages high dollar tourism draws like this because they bring revenues into the county’s tax coffers. The so-called expense of GA planes landing during such an event are a fiction: the expense is exactly identical to the airport’s operations on any other ordinary day. What seems to really be happening is that the county attracts tourism draws on one hand, then gleefully sees that it can maximize profits on the other hand by price gouging private citizen-pilots.

To the point of some on this thread, a private company (like hotels) can price gouge all it wants if the law permits. But a public airport is funded by tax dollars and cannot be used to “maximize profits” the same way private persons or businesses can. With public funding come public obligations.

 

[cowtowner]

The county incurred costs preparing For the F1, just not at the airport necessarily. they’re charging those who are attending to recoup those costs.

You can only use airport generated fees at the airport. Not on general fund items like paving roads

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

These are the right questions to ask, because the county’s “cost” argument seems nonsensical to me. The county encourages high dollar tourism draws like this because they bring revenues into the county’s tax coffers. The so-called expense of GA planes landing during such an event are a fiction: the expense is exactly identical to the airport’s operations on any other ordinary day. What seems to really be happening is that the county attracts tourism draws on one hand, then gleefully sees that it can maximize profits on the other hand by price gouging private citizen-pilots.

To the point of some on this thread, a private company (like hotels) can price gouge all it wants if the law permits. But a public airport is funded by tax dollars and cannot be used to “maximize profits” the same way private persons or businesses can. With public funding come public obligations.

Las Vegas F1 construction costs raise to $400M, officials cite infrastructure needs from residents​

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“A lot of (the increased costs were) driven by the request, and quite honestly requirements, of the local stakeholders, as we began this process of preparing the track for actual usage,” Wilm said during the call. “This has led to additional equipment that was needed, as well as additional, actual roadwork.”​

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Now, it’s a race to the finish line: Saturday, November 18.​

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Liberty Media CEO Greg Maffei told investors that the tight deadline potentially raised the costs as well, and prevented them from capitalizing on other fan celebrations, sporting events, and music festivals near the weekend race.​

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“We moved with lightning speed, the F1 team, Renee’s team, to put this in place. And that’s probably led to increased costs. And it’s also meant there were opportunities we’ve had to not capitalize on,” Maffei said during the call.​

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Las Vegas F1 construction costs raise to $400M, officials cite infrastructure needs from residents

While Las Vegas is on track to host Formula One races for the next 10 years, officials said millions of dollars more than first projected are being used just for year one.

www.8newsnow.com

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[MauleSkinner]

You can only use airport generated fees at the airport. Not on general fund items like paving roads

I suspect they cleverly called it an “event fee” rather than any kind of airport fee so that by the time anybody came up with anything that made it illegal the money would be long gone.