Airline-Pilot Shortage Arrives Ahead of Schedule

Raise prices on tickets so you can afford to pay for qualified pilots then. There's shortage of pay, not pilots. Simple.

No point in bitching outside the 99c store about the fact you only got 50c and they won't sell you anything.

The regionals don't really have that option. They're on a set pay for segment for the majority of their flights. Deregulation has definitely created a race to the bottom among airlines. Whoever can be cheaper than the other guy wins.
 
The regionals don't really have that option. They're on a set pay for segment for the majority of their flights. Deregulation has definitely created a race to the bottom among airlines. Whoever can be cheaper than the other guy wins.

Exactly. But once the labor price floor is reached, the business folds if unable to cover cost. No different than any other industry. Regionals have relied on on the inelasticity of demand on the part of people who considered flying an airplane for peanuts a 'neat-o' alternative to the "drudgery" of pedestrian jobs. Since anybody can hold their breath for one year, nobody made much stink of that fundamental economic deficit. But now that holding your breath is a function of 6-10 years, plus an additional time barrier to entry in the form of the 1500 rule, the house of cards falls. As such, the regional routes/capacity should then shrink. Yes, that means less regional jobs available to aspirants. Tough.

Just as nobody is owed a pilot job, BFE in the Mexican border isn't owed 6-9 departures a day. You want to go to Orlando for 99/rt real bad? Tough c$it. Drive the 6 hours to a hub airport that makes money. Ain't capitalism grand?

I don't feel bad for the regionals, they're a sickness that needs to go away. As to regional pilots, yeah I don't feel bad for them either. We all know the score. We're all innocent in Shawshank. :rolleyes2:
 
The regionals don't really have that option. They're on a set pay for segment for the majority of their flights. Deregulation has definitely created a race to the bottom among airlines. Whoever can be cheaper than the other guy wins.

Well, if the costs of pilot labor go up, then no regional will be able to undercut the others, and the majors will have to pay more when they re-up the contracts.

What is it about the airline industry that makes you think that basic economic principals don't apply? It's true in any industry that the cheaper guy "wins", if by that you mean that the purchaser will opt for the cheaper option.
 
Union, you almost say that like its a bad thing.

Not at all. I served as a union steward for a while, and thought there might be some readers who weren't familiar with that abbreviation.
 
February 12, 2014 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

MEC Newsblast – MEC Meeting Result

Fellow Pilots: The Master Executive Council of the American Eagle Pilot’s Union, the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA), voted today to reject management’s recent concessionary proposal. The company proposal would have given American Airlines Group (AAG) contract concessions in return for refleeting American Eagle Airlines with new Embraer 175 jets. Company representatives made it clear that should the pilots and management fail to reach a deal, the company will not entertain future negotiations. Negotiators for AAG also stated numerous times that if a deal fails to be ratified, American Eagle Airlines will be downsized continually until it is small enough to liquidate. Captain William Sprague, Chairman of the pilot’s union had this to say: “The vote today was about the future of Eagle pilots and the regional airline pilot profession. The pilots negotiated and signed a concessionary agreement during the recent bankruptcy, and management asked us soon after AAG exited bankruptcy for additional, significant concessions. Our pilots decided they were not willing to work for less than the company is already paying our peers. We will now begin the process of assisting our pilots in identifying alternative career options within the industry.” During the coming days, ALPA will be working with the American Eagle pilots to help them find placement with other airlines. ALPA representatives will ask management for their timetable regarding the liquidation of American Eagle. Stay engaged as we move forward. The need for unity is more critical now than any other time in our history. John Gardner, Chairman
 
I've considered a fixed wing career several times. I chose rotorcraft because if I gain experience and change jobs I go UP in pay.

edit - I guess what I'm getting at is if ya'll have Unions on the fixed wing side then why would you have to take a pay cut if you decided to change jobs :confused:
 
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My gut is you are about to see the beginning of the end of the Regional industry (I hope) this flying needs to go back to mainline. My airline is about to say no as well there is 0 doubt our new contract will hit the toilet any day now....I cant wait.

In 2 months this industry has changed more than in 12 years.
 
If there is a cutback in pilots, routes, and carriers, then the price of airline tickets ought to rise. Personally, I believe that is a good thing. I think the price of airline tickets has led to abysmal service in an industry that once was considered a luxury and tried to become a commodity. But, we also need to re-emphasize travel by trains.

OK, I'm too old fashioned, I know.
 
If there is a cutback in pilots, routes, and carriers, then the price of airline tickets ought to rise. Personally, I believe that is a good thing. I think the price of airline tickets has led to abysmal service in an industry that once was considered a luxury and tried to become a commodity. But, we also need to re-emphasize travel by trains.

OK, I'm too old fashioned, I know.
Raising the price doesn't mean better service will result.
 
ALPA Refutes Myth of Pilot Shortage
ALPA_pilots.jpg

The thousands of airline pilots who are furloughed or working overseas when they would prefer to fly for a U.S. airline and live in this country makes it clear that no shortage of trained and qualified airline pilots currently exists in the United States, according to the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA). “There may be a shortage of qualified pilots who are willing to fly for U.S. airlines because of the industry’s recent history of instability, poor pay, and benefits,” said Capt. Lee Moak, president of ALPA. “But thousands of highly qualified and experienced U.S. airline pilots are either furloughed or working overseas and eager to return to U.S airline cockpits—under the right conditions.” According to ALPA, some 1,154 of its members are currently are furloughed from their airlines, including Comair, which closed in 2012 and furloughed more than 850 trained and experienced pilots, nearly all of whom are looking for jobs; and ASTAR, Evergreen and Ryan, which shut down and put some 800 pilots out of work.
ALPA said that thousands of U.S. pilots now fly for foreign airlines because those airlines’ stability, pay, and benefits are much greater than those offered by U.S airlines. They pointed out that the average first officer (copilot) starting salary at 14 U.S. regional airlines is $21,285/year plus benefits and that Delta and United start copilots at $61,000/year plus benefits, while at Emirates Airlines, new-hire copilots receive $82,000/year plus a housing allowance and other extraordinary benefits. Similarly, Cathay Pacific pays new copilots $72,000/year plus a housing allowance and other extraordinary benefits. Many expatriate U.S. pilots say they would return to the United States if airline industry conditions improve here. Capt. Moak asserted, “The real solution to preventing any future pilot shortage is for airlines to produce consistently profitable results. Congress can support this goal by implementing pro-growth aviation policies that reduce the tax burden on airlines and give the industry an opportunity to compete and prevail in the international marketplace.”

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It would seem that the only shortage of pilots are ones that will work for peanuts. This might not kill the regionals completely as I am sure that 70 passenger RJ's can make enough money to pay the pilots a wage for which they are willing to work, as long as they are used on runs that make sense economically. These were likely the runs that the majors did themselves with DC-9's three decades ago. At the very least, we seem to be in for a serious consolidation of the regionals.
 
Well, if the costs of pilot labor go up, then no regional will be able to undercut the others, and the majors will have to pay more when they re-up the contracts.

What is it about the airline industry that makes you think that basic economic principals don't apply? It's true in any industry that the cheaper guy "wins", if by that you mean that the purchaser will opt for the cheaper option.

Business degree guys crack me up ! x+y=a. Why that's all there is too it. You just follow the rules of business school. MBA knuckleheads have been trying to do that now for over thirty years in the deregulated airline industry and almost all of them pretty much get their ass handed back to them by the industry. If it were really that simple it all would have been fixed years ago.
 
ALPA won't help them. They are inept and powerless.

ALPA needs to divest itself of Regional partners. Representing both majors and regionals frequently works at cross purposes. The best thing for regionals would be for them to form their own specific union to focus on their unique issues.
 
I've considered a fixed wing career several times. I chose rotorcraft because if I gain experience and change jobs I go UP in pay.

edit - I guess what I'm getting at is if ya'll have Unions on the fixed wing side then why would you have to take a pay cut if you decided to change jobs :confused:

Yeah, I flew helos in the Marine Corps. I considered a rotary wing job until I looked at the top of the pay scale there compared with fixed. I'm much happy I chose fixed wing. You're right though, starting out the rw pays better but I was looking beyond all that and am glad I did.
 
ALPA needs to divest itself of Regional partners..

Got news for you, they already have, and have been for years. ALPA uses the regional and cargo guys for their "dues base" only, neither one of those groups have ever been supported by ALPA.

Representing both majors and regionals frequently works at cross purposes.

ALPA's "One Level of Safety" is and continues to be a joke.

The best thing for regionals would be for them to form their own specific union to focus on their unique issues.

Yep, ALPA has been a major failure in representing most carriers.
 
Got news for you, they already have, and have been for years. ALPA uses the regional and cargo guys for their "dues base" only, neither one of those groups have ever been supported by ALPA.



ALPA's "One Level of Safety" is and continues to be a joke.



Yep, ALPA has been a major failure in representing most carriers.

Well at least they got that USS Airways and American West list right !
 
If there is a cutback in pilots, routes, and carriers, then the price of airline tickets ought to rise. Personally, I believe that is a good thing. I think the price of airline tickets has led to abysmal service in an industry that once was considered a luxury and tried to become a commodity. But, we also need to re-emphasize travel by trains.

OK, I'm too old fashioned, I know.
Interesting. I read this, then listen to this podcast.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014...test-growing-least-popular-airline-in-america

It's cheap to fly on Spirit Airlines, but you have to pay extra for perks. And by perks, we mean a bottle of water or space in the overhead bin.

It's totally rational: pay for what you use, don't pay for what you don't use. And it's increasingly popular: Spirit is the fastest growing airline in America.

And yet. Lots of people really don't like Spirit Airlines. In a Consumer Reports survey published last year, Spirit finished last among U.S. airlines.

How is the fastest growing airline also the least popular? On today's show, we fly Spirit Airlines to Florida and ask the CEO.
Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with airlines aiming to be a commodity if that is their business model and they can succeed (which includes finding enough pilots). When I get on an airline I want it to be safe and on-time, relatively speaking. I would rather have a cheaper bus ride than a luxury experience. If there are other airlines who want to go after the higher end travelers that is fine too. However, that business model doesn't seem to work as well, probably because in the end you are just getting in an aluminum tube in order to get you to your destination in the most expeditious way possible. Very few people take airline flights for fun. It's the destination that matters.
 
Trains are regaining some of their appeal to the traveling public. Airport hassles and the cost of gasoline are contributors. I think we are a long way away from major airlines having trouble finding pilots. I can see the need for having pilots in the not so distant future as a moot point, airplanes will become fully automated, big people hauling drones.

A manufactured pilot shortage could even be part of the propaganda needed to get the flying public to accept flying on pilotless airplanes, or at least thinking about it as we work our way toward it.

-John
 
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Pilotless drones would give the phrase "blue screen of death" a whole new meaning! Will they use a Microsoft operating system? :hairraise:
 
Pilotless drones would give the phrase "blue screen of death" a whole new meaning! Will they use a Microsoft operating system? :hairraise:

As long as government is not involved in it's design, it should be a well working system. Obamacare is an excellent example of government designed and controlled software..We do not want that...nooooo.

-John
 
Do you think private industry doesn't make mistakes?

Software engineers are just as fallible as pilots.
 
Interesting. I read this, then listen to this podcast.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014...test-growing-least-popular-airline-in-america

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with airlines aiming to be a commodity if that is their business model and they can succeed (which includes finding enough pilots). When I get on an airline I want it to be safe and on-time, relatively speaking. I would rather have a cheaper bus ride than a luxury experience. If there are other airlines who want to go after the higher end travelers that is fine too. However, that business model doesn't seem to work as well, probably because in the end you are just getting in an aluminum tube in order to get you to your destination in the most expeditious way possible. Very few people take airline flights for fun. It's the destination that matters.

Spirit doesn't end up being cheaper though since you pay for every piece of baggage. What I would like to see happen is that advertised prices are "apples to apples" to include baggage.
 
Spirit doesn't end up being cheaper though since you pay for every piece of baggage. What I would like to see happen is that advertised prices are "apples to apples" to include baggage.
I think the point is that some people travel with much more baggage than others so you can never compare evenly unless the pricing is a la carte.
 
I think the point is that some people travel with much more baggage than others so you can never compare evenly unless the pricing is a la carte.

Right, no worries, right there in the website box you can enter your baggage and let it search with your baggage included.
 
Do you think private industry doesn't make mistakes?

Software engineers are just as fallible as pilots.

Private industry has a lot more to lose than a simple announcement on how they have learned from their mistake, or how they accept full responsibility.

-John
 
Private industry has a lot more to lose than a simple announcement on how they have learned from their mistake, or how they accept full responsibility.

That's not enough for me to trust all the decision-making to someone whose survival does not depend on being right, i.e., the software engineers.
 
No kidding....like Microsoft never made a mistake?

You missed my point I think. When Microsoft or any other private company makes a mistake, it can cost them millions of dollars, cost them some of their customers, even put them out of business entirely.

When our government makes a mistake, it costs them not their money, but taxpayer money. They do not lose customers, they have a monopoly on that.

All it costs them is an embarrassing press conference or news release wherein they accept full responsibility, which of course is meaningless, since nobody will actually pay any sort of a price, except possibly a letter of reprimand as long as the government employee union says that is OK to do.

Or they will tell us that they have learned from their mistake.....,only to do it again...and again....and again.


-John
 
What's that got to do with whether pilotless airliners are feasible? Or alleged pilot shortages? :confused:
 
Trains are regaining some of their appeal to the traveling public. Airport hassles and the cost of gasoline are contributors. I think we are a long way away from major airlines having trouble finding pilots. I can see the need for having pilots in the not so distant future as a moot point, airplanes will become fully automated, big people hauling drones.

A manufactured pilot shortage could even be part of the propaganda needed to get the flying public to accept flying on pilotless airplanes, or at least thinking about it as we work our way toward it.

-John

Buses, too. (thinking about Mega Bus and inter city runs in the NE.)
 
The fringe always gets a dig at the government even if it makes no sense at all. The government ( post office) made what became commercial airlines possible. The government has also bailed out the airlines on several occasions due to poor management decisions. Airlines fly many of the troops with government money plus some cargo, ( evergreen, atlas, world, on and on. ) get serious.
 
Anybody see this one? Posted on Flightaware....joke Craigslist ad:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/lbg/4332339424.html

Hello there, here at the world's largest airline we are aggressively seeking an airline to staff and fly our state of the art, Embraer 175 turbo jet aircraft. These aircraft are on the way from Brazil and just waiting for your airline and all of the excess pilots that you have trained and on property (that also possess ATP minimums) to fly them. We are willing to pay precisely the bottom dollar that Delta pays for their feed, so please keep that in mind when bidding for this flying. Did we mention how shiny these jets are? They are extremely shiny and they have that new plane smell that pilots love. Pilots would probably fly these jets for free, they are THAT nice.

I am looking forward to hearing from you about your ability to fly these planes that are arriving. It is very cost prohibitive to have these jets sitting without pilots, so let's make a deal! Contact me anytime. Seriously. Anytime. I'm desperate here. My ascendency up the mAAnagerial ladder depends on this. I may already be screwed. Ugh. Please call. Please? Hello?

PS: Shiny!!!

Regards,

Pedro Fabregas
 
That was a response to your query in post #142. I had to spell out my response.

I think you missed my point, which was that the advantages of private enterprise don't automatically mean that pilotless aircraft can be made safe enough for airline use.
 
The ALPA President Captain Lee Moak (Delta Pilot)

:nonod: :rolleyes2:

Ask Moak why ALPA doesn't support those regional MEC's the way they support the legacy ones.

ALPA is largely responsible for negotiating these regional airlines CBA's. Where was your concern while negotiating?

The Regionals, Small carriers and Cargo ALPA members are only there to support the dues base.
 
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