Aircraft Logbooks

Stewartb said:
Most guys who fear leaving logs with a mechanic are either new to ownership or have no relationship with their mechanic. My mechanic keeps my logs and has a key to my plane. If it needs attention I call or text him and it gets taken care of. I have no concerns about the security of my logs and if I did I'd make a digital copy for my own keeping. If you can't trust your mechanic you need to find one you can.
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Got nothing to do with having a relationship or "being new" to aviation, has to do with that's a heap of money in those logs and it's just better they live with all my other similar documents in my safe.

I trust my friends and family too, but I don't ask them to hold on to my life savings for me.
 
Stewartb said:
Most guys who fear leaving logs with a mechanic are either new to ownership or have no relationship with their mechanic.
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It's my experience that this couldn't be farther from the truth. Around the areas I've been based, and there have been quite a few over the last 14 years given my nomadic tendencies, it's the exact opposite.

* newbies let the mechanic keep their logs. They don't know any better.

* people who aren't true aviators...who have a plane for the utility only and not for the passion...let the mechanic keep their logs.

* people who have enough money to not be bothered with trivial stuff let the mechanic keep their logs.

But many of us keep and mange our own logs. Many of us perform owner assisted annuals so we know our machines well. Many of us don't allow mechanics to do the final assembly of our aircraft after repair (like reinstall the cowls). We do it, after we thoroughly inspect the work that was done.

It's not about "not trusting." Rather it's all about staying alive. Everyone makes mistakes...even me occasionally. I've caught a few "honest mistakes" or oversights over the years. One that I didn't catch put me down---dead stick---in Wiggins, MS about 12 years ago. That one helped to galvanize my above position on managing my airplane.

I was there almost every day helping (or simply doing myself) as my new engine was installed last month. And, yes, things were caught during the install and adjusted/changed. I have a far better install as a result of being personally involved than I would have had had I simply allowed it to happen with no involvement.

To each his/her own, but I'll stay heavily involved, thanks! I'm certainly no better than any mechanic out there but I offer another set of eyes...and it's a set of eyes more concerned with the welfare of my butt than any other.
 
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you guys are entitled to your opinions. I stated mine. The end.
 
Forgetting for a second the shadiness of an owner performing non-43 Appx A approved maintenance tasks while their "mechanic" is hurriedly looking over the guys books in the back room....

If a guy won't trust me with his logbooks long enough to perform a proper log book audit and AD listing while in my office, where my manuals, references, and computer is, I won't work on his plane. Those guys here who claim to be getting proper annuals by micro managing and shorting their mechanics are likely screwing themselves on the back end. Likely their mechanic is not insured and is moonlighting from an actual shop paying for updated manuals, insurance, etc. Owner assist is fine when it meets the mechanics standards and he is doing it legitimately. It is HIS certificates on the line when he lets you play mechanic. Paying him to sign off your work is in most cases illegal if those items aren't allowed by FAR And he PHYSICALLY supervised said work. I do owner assists if I feel comfortable and in control as the IA. This entitled attitude I see by some owners is a recipe for one day finding no mechanic to sign off your cheapo do it yourself annuals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed. It's not stealing. You know right where they are. Pay your bill.
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The hell they are. Why don't you get a few years of experience under your belt before spewing stuff like this? Tell me, how many annuals have you performed AND SIGNED on light single engines in the last year? The last five years? The last of your career?
 
James331 said:
Not really ..

I mean I'm in the hangar opening up the half a million panels, pulling plugs, greasing stuff and whatnot, he's over at the desk thumbing through the books to refresh his memory from the last time he saw the plane. After he's done looking in the books they go back in their case and back in the trunk of my car, day two we normally wrap things up and he prints up and signs the new annual stickers and they are added into the books, I pay him, we shoot the chit for a while and I'm off, never really considered it as asking for that much, or being out of the norm.

Guess we run in different aviation circles eh?
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I am curious to know what kind of aircraft you have and how much did you pay for the last annual?
 
GlennAB1 said:
The log book does fly around with the aircraft I work on and it (as well as some manuals and charts) are part of the aircraft empty weight.
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There is NOT one regulation in part 91, 43 etc that says the aircraft maintenance records must be on the airplane. If you believe otherwise, please show us.
 
brien23 said:
I am curious to know what kind of aircraft you have and how much did you pay for the last annual?
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It's a Cessna A185F amphibian, last annual was like 1600bucks, owner assist, would have been less except but there were some minor things I wanted to do in addition.
 
My logs are all scanned PDF. I either email the PDF to the shop or give it to them on a USB. Never had a problem getting a sticker. Call me paranoid but I've heard too many horror stories about A/P and logbooks.... If they can't work with a PDF then I will find another shop. That's just me.
 
Stewartb said:
Most guys who fear leaving logs with a mechanic are either new to ownership or have no relationship with their mechanic. My mechanic keeps my logs and has a key to my plane. If it needs attention I call or text him and it gets taken care of. I have no concerns about the security of my logs and if I did I'd make a digital copy for my own keeping. If you can't trust your mechanic you need to find one you can.
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This is me! I will leave them with MY mechanic but not one I do not know. I am on my 2nd Cirrus but I've only been an owner for 2 years. But I can't imagine in 10 years I'll trust anyone either :)
 
EminiTrader said:
My logs are all scanned PDF. I either email the PDF to the shop or give it to them on a USB. Never had a problem getting a sticker. Call me paranoid but I've heard too many horror stories about A/P and logbooks.... If they can't work with a PDF then I will find another shop. That's just me.
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and if you wont let me see the originals, then you will need to find another shop because I wont work on your plane. an IA signing off an annual is making a legal statement when he/she signs off the annual. the pen and ink in the log book is one part of what he/she uses to decide if all maintenance is done and documented properly. a copy is to easy to fake or alter. people do it. If you have been working with someone for years and the book is filled with your name it is a different situation than someone that brings in an airplane for the first time. a first time annual takes a lot of time to research 50 years of ad's and sb's. your a fool if you trust someone else to say everything is complied with. If you want to stand around and wait for me to do that in the office, be my guest, it could take hours, but I am not about to put my name down after just seeing a copy of the logs. did your buy it with out looking at the original logs ( i doubt it) ?

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
and if you wont let me see the originals, then you will need to find another shop because I wont work on your plane. an IA signing off an annual is making a legal statement when he/she signs off the annual. the pen and ink in the log book is one part of what he/she uses to decide if all maintenance is done and documented properly. a copy is to easy to fake or alter. people do it. If you have been working with someone for years and the book is filled with your name it is a different situation than someone that brings in an airplane for the first time. a first time annual takes a lot of time to research 50 years of ad's and sb's. your a fool if you trust someone else to say everything is complied with. If you want to stand around and wait for me to do that in the office, be my guest, it could take hours, but I am not about to put my name down after just seeing a copy of the logs. did your buy it with out looking at the original logs ( i doubt it) ?

bob
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That is fair to have such a policy. However, it would prevent me from doing business with your shop. I have immaculate records with cross references for where AD's are signed off. I only provide a pdf version and some spreadsheets to my mechanics.
 
Most records don't need to be kept beyond 1 year or until the work is repeated and it is not clear to me if records that are not required to be kept must be provided to the FAA. For example, an annual that has expired its 12 calendar months, does not need to be kept. I keep my records beyond the required time periods because of the affect on resale value, not because they need to be provided to the FAA, which 91.417 states they don't. See 91.417 for details.
 
unsafervguy said:
and if you wont let me see the originals, then you will need to find another shop because I wont work on your plane. an IA signing off an annual is making a legal statement when he/she signs off the annual. the pen and ink in the log book is one part of what he/she uses to decide if all maintenance is done and documented properly. a copy is to easy to fake or alter. people do it. If you have been working with someone for years and the book is filled with your name it is a different situation than someone that brings in an airplane for the first time. a first time annual takes a lot of time to research 50 years of ad's and sb's. your a fool if you trust someone else to say everything is complied with. If you want to stand around and wait for me to do that in the office, be my guest, it could take hours, but I am not about to put my name down after just seeing a copy of the logs. did your buy it with out looking at the original logs ( i doubt it) ?

bob
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If you absolutely needed to see my originals, that would be acceptable and ok. But you would be reviewing them with me and giving them back. Again you may not want to work with me, and that of course is your choice but I know a very close friend here in Florida who had a problem with a shop that held his logs hostage after he refused to pay for work he did not authorize.. one bad apple type of a thing. But either way good input from all sides here tonight.
 
bnt83 said:
There is NOT one regulation in part 91, 43 etc that says the aircraft maintenance records must be on the airplane. If you believe otherwise, please show us.
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91.417 (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

1.1 General definitions.
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
 
GlennAB1 said:
91.417 (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

1.1 General definitions.
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
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Yup, and they will be avalabile by appointment, they are not part of the required docs to have onboard
 
unsafervguy said:
and if you wont let me see the originals, then you will need to find another shop because I wont work on your plane. an IA signing off an annual is making a legal statement when he/she signs off the annual. the pen and ink in the log book is one part of what he/she uses to decide if all maintenance is done and documented properly. a copy is to easy to fake or alter. people do it. If you have been working with someone for years and the book is filled with your name it is a different situation than someone that brings in an airplane for the first time. a first time annual takes a lot of time to research 50 years of ad's and sb's. your a fool if you trust someone else to say everything is complied with. If you want to stand around and wait for me to do that in the office, be my guest, it could take hours, but I am not about to put my name down after just seeing a copy of the logs. did your buy it with out looking at the original logs ( i doubt it) ?

bob
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Yeah, so how do you know the past 5 years of log book entries and AD sign offs were not done by the owners 16 year old kid the night before in a hotel room?

IMO the mechanics which are have a hard on to be able to keep your logs with them or have access to them without you there are the same ones who would be quick to steal them and hold them hostage at the first sign of a dispute.

My APIA not only doesn't mind me not leaving my logs with him unattended, he prefers it, doesn't want the responsibility and as a honest man why would he, unless you're debating using the logs as leverage there is zero benifit to taking the responsibility of possession of something worth 20% of the airframes value.


If someone is going to forge stuff in a log it's on them, as long as YOUR records are inline, and YOU document YOUR work properly, you got nothing to be worried about.
 
GlennAB1 said:
91.417 (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

1.1 General definitions.
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
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Hey,folks, just shine this jerk on. Somehow he got hired on to a cardboard airline and thinks he knows all about General Aviation. My guess is that he MIGHT have an A or a P, but probably not an IA.

Just forget him. Please.

Jim
 
Hey Jim, where does it say POA is limited to bug smashes? I've dealt with the FAA, they can be pricks. My advice is to appease them, not p!ss them off.
 
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GlennAB1 said:
Hey Jim, where does it say POA is limited to bug smashes? I've dealt with the FAA, they can be pricks. My advice is to appease them, not p!ss them off.
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While your advice to be cooperative with the FAA is sound, your assertion that log books are part of the aircraft, included in the W&B, and must be produced immediately upon request is absolutely wrong and not backed by any FAR. If you want to make that a recommendation, that's fine but to post that it's a mandatory requirement for part 91 ops is simply ridiculous.
 
GlennAB1 said:
91.417 (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

1.1 General definitions.
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
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So, according to the regulation you quoted, where does it say I must keep the maintenance records in the aircraft. Further, the regulation only applies to the records that must be kept, so that excludes the annual from over a year ago.
 
GlennAB1 said:
91.417 (c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

1.1 General definitions.
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
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Lets take a look into the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS).

It is very specific on what MUST be in the airplane. Maintenance records SHOULD be inspected WHEN available. Don't fly around with your maintenance logbooks folks. The FAA discourages that incase of theft, damage, or they get destroyed in an accident.

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v06 surveillance/chapter 01/06_001_004.pdf


Order 8900.1 Volume 6 Surveillance

Chapter 1 Section 4 Conduct a Part 91 Ramp inspection

-95 AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTS. The following are considerations when examining aircraft documents, including registration and airworthiness certificates and approved Airplane Flight Manuals (AFM). The inspector will bring discrepancies found concerning the airworthiness or registration certificates to the attention of the owner/operator, document them, and give them to the airworthiness unit for action.

A. Aircraft Identification. The N-number and serial number on the registration certificate must match the N‑number and serial number on the airworthiness certificate.

B. Registration Certificate. If the registered owner changes, the owner may display a temporary registration (pink slip), which is good for 90 days (refer to 14 CFR part 47, § 47.31). If the ownership has changed without a pink slip or the N-numbers do not match, the registration is not valid.

C. Flight Manual. An AFM may be required onboard the aircraft if required by 14 CFR part 21, § 21.5, or the appropriate markings and placards in accordance with § 91.9.

D. Weight and Balance (W&B) Information. W&B documents, including a list of equipment, as appropriately revised, should be available for the inspector’s review. Some multiengine operators have minimum equipment lists (MEL) with a letter of authorization (LOA) issued by a district office. These constitute required documentation for the aircraft and must be on board. The inspector should compare inoperative equipment to the MEL to ensure compliance.

E. Aircraft Logbooks. Inspectors should check aircraft maintenance logbooks, when available, for currency and compliance with 14 CFR part 43, §§ 43.9(a) and 43.11(a). Aircraft maintenance records come in many styles. There is no standard form or format as long as the regulatory requirements (§§ 43.9 and 43.11) for maintenance entries are provided.

F. Airworthiness Certificate.

1) There are two different classifications of FAA airworthiness certificates: standard airworthiness certificates and special airworthiness certificates. The certificate most often seen by an inspector is a standard airworthiness certificate, which is issued for normal, utility, acrobatic, and transport category aircraft. Special airworthiness certificates are issued in the following categories:

· Primary,

· Restricted,

· Multiple,

· Limited,

· Light-sport,

· Experimental,

· Special flight permit, and

· Provisional.

2) A list of limitations and conditions (part 21, §§ 21.183– 21.191) necessary for safe operation must accompany a restricted, limited, or experimental certificate. Special flight permits (ferry permits) are issued to aircraft that may not be Airworthy but are capable of safe flight under certain conditions, which are listed and issued with the permit (part 21, § 21.197 and part 91, §§ 91.203 and 91.213). Review the list of limitations and conditions to assure a valid airworthiness certificate. The N-number on the certificate must match the N-number on the fuselage to be valid.

G. LOAs. Some operations (e.g., Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum (RVSM), North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and Category (CAT) II) require approved LOAs, which may include additional operational and maintenance requirements. Inspectors should verify an operator’s authorization based on observed or anticipated activity. Inspectors should search the Web-based Operations Safety System (WebOPSS) database for an operator’s most current authorization(s).
 
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John Collins said:
So, according to the regulation you quoted, where does it say I must keep the maintenance records in the aircraft. Further, the regulation only applies to the records that must be kept, so that excludes the annual from over a year ago.
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Yes, which also means; no huge weight restriction like someone wrote.
 
Boomer said:
Forgetting for a second the shadiness <snip>

This entitled attitude I see by some owners is a recipe for one day finding no mechanic to sign off your cheapo do it yourself annuals.
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timwinters said:
Never confuse anal retentiveness for shadiness or cheapness...
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Oh, and I might add...

and this comment is in no way meant to disparage A&Ps...

I have found far more mistakes made by A&Ps on my plane over the years than they have found mistakes of mine. Far far more.

That doesn't denigrate A&Ps. It simply makes the statement that I have but one airplane to learn well and worry about, not a few dozen (or hundred) like they do. In most cases I know the finer details of my airplane better than they do.

We simply look out for each other.

A&Ps kinda remind me of veterinarians. They have a brazilian anatomies to learn. And I've always had far more respect for veterinarians than human docs. Human docs have but one anatomy to learn.

I'm a human doc of plane mx. ;)
 
timwinters said:
I'm a human doc of plane mx. ;)
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Not exactly ... As the owner of a certificated aircraft, you are the parent (Part 91). Yes, you know your child better than any 'doctor', and if your child becomes ill it is your responsibility treat it within your authority (Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C) however, anything more and you need to find qualified, certificated mechanics (doctors) (Part 43) to work with. Owner assisted maintenance/inspections are great learning and oversight opportunities for owners and provides a second set of eyes, but we should not lose sight of the process, procedures and authority AP/IA work under. AP/IA certificates and Pilot certificate/aircraft owner titles are not mutual.

I'm with Post #44. We both have roles and I like to keep things on my partlegitimate and ethical. Easier to explain things to the maintenance police.
 
EminiTrader said:
If you absolutely needed to see my originals, that would be acceptable and ok. But you would be reviewing them with me and giving them back. Again you may not want to work with me, and that of course is your choice but I know a very close friend here in Florida who had a problem with a shop that held his logs hostage after he refused to pay for work he did not authorize.. one bad apple type of a thing. But either way good input from all sides here tonight.
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That's fine, I really don't want them in my possession, but I insist on seeing the originals. I don't think it would play out in court very well, "is this your sticker and signature sir? Did you examine the log books for this aircraft?. Yes spirit is, and I did inspect a copy the owner provided. So you never actually saw the original log books? No further question your honor" I don't ever want to go down that leagal road.

Bob
 
iflyifr said:
Not exactly ... As the owner of a certificated aircraft, you are the parent (Part 91). Yes, you know your child better than any 'doctor', and if your child becomes ill it is your responsibility treat it within your authority (Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C) however, anything more and you need to find qualified, certificated mechanics (doctors) (Part 43) to work with. Owner assisted maintenance/inspections are great learning and oversight opportunities for owners and provides a second set of eyes, but we should not lose sight of the process, procedures and authority AP/IA work under. AP/IA certificates and Pilot certificate/aircraft owner titles are not mutual.

I'm with Post #44. We both have roles and I like to keep things on my partlegitimate and ethical. Easier to explain things to the maintenance police.
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Only if you assume I care more about the regulations than I do about my life.

And that would be a very bad assumption.
 
In the end it's the IA that holds all the responsibility not the owner that helped on the annual. If their is a smoking hole and the owner is in it he may have been the best buddy of the IA and would never hold him responsible but his wife might not be so forgiving.
 
timwinters said:
I have found far more mistakes made by A&Ps on my plane over the years than they have found mistakes of mine. Far far more.
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That makes sense, since you spend way more time with your airplane, and what you can work on (legally) is limited. It's human factors. Humans make mistakes, there are a lot of ways to prevent it, and still sometimes mistakes happen.
 
GlennAB1 said:
That makes sense, since you spend way more time with your airplane, and what you can work on (legally) is limited. It's human factors. Humans make mistakes, there are a lot of ways to prevent it, and still sometimes mistakes happen.
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?????

I can legally work on everything on my aircraft and, for the most part, have.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I don't need an IA to be a QC Inspector for almost 30 years with two airlines.
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WHO ARE YOU?!

Day 1 PPL student. What documents are required to be kept in the plane?

AROW(E) - Airworthiness certificate, registration, operating limitations, weight & balance, and equipment list (MEL/STC) if your plane has one.

That was the first acronym I was required to learn, and the very first question I was asked by my examiner on my checkride. C'mon man. 783 posts is too much history to start trolling now.
 
Is it common for 121/135 operators to keep their planes logbooks on each plane?

For me I keep my logbooks in this cabinet right behind me in my office. I typically get stickers for maintenance done, if an A&P wants to see something I'll bring them to him and we'll check it out together. I'm a wanna be A&P so I like to stay fairly involved.... Also I've scanned each major logbook and have them out on a Googledrive as a pdf.
 
OkieAviator said:
Is it common for 121/135 operators to keep their planes logbooks on each plane?

For me I keep my logbooks in this cabinet right behind me in my office. I typically get stickers for maintenance done, if an A&P wants to see something I'll bring them to him and we'll check it out together. I'm a wanna be A&P so I like to stay fairly involved.... Also I've scanned each major logbook and have them out on a Googledrive as a pdf.
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Nope. Think of how many logbooks a light jet has. binders for two engines, APU logbook, airframe logbook, an interior materials burn certs binder, several large binders full of 8130-3 and work orders of history on the life limited parts and others. When these aircraft go to a maintenance base they also load about 5 large binders full of aircraft specific wiring diagrams, ICAs, supplemental maintenance manuals etc.

International operators usually condense all required documents into one binder so when they get ramp checked its all in one place, and nope, its not maintenance records.
 
The airlines I've worked for required the aircraft logbook to remain on the aircraft, except when maintenance has them in their office. The logbook is not a complete history of the aircraft. The complete history is maintained in company aircraft records department. But, the Logbook, most definitely remains with the aircraft.
 
bnt83 said:
Nope. Think of how many logbooks a light jet has. binders for two engines, APU logbook, airframe logbook, an interior materials burn certs binder, several large binders full of 8130-3 and work orders of history on the life limited parts and others. When these aircraft go to a maintenance base they also load about 5 large binders full of aircraft specific wiring diagrams, ICAs, supplemental maintenance manuals etc.

International operators usually condense all required documents into one binder so when they get ramp checked its all in one place, and nope, its not maintenance records.
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Yea and no, we carry a MX log book, it's less then 1 inch thick, it's used for the day to day MX operations, updates of nav cards, VOR checks, desals, adding a MEL item, it is always in the plane and once it's filled up, takes a month or so, it's removed, basic times carried over and a new one replaces it.
 
GlennAB1 said:
The airlines I've worked for required the aircraft logbook to remain on the aircraft, except when maintenance has them in their office. The logbook is not a complete history of the aircraft. The complete history is maintained in company aircraft records department. But, the Logbook, most definitely remains with the aircraft.
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Ok, NOW I understand where you are coming from. We are really talking two different things here. What you are talking about is only the most recent history from the logbooks. When we talk about logbooks we generally talk about ALL of its history not host the last couple of months or weeks.
 
Ok, logbooks are not created, or treated, equally. Airlines follow their specific FAA approved manuals, the ones I've worked for have been very similar.
 
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