Airbus A320 Down

SixPapaCharlie said:
Payne Stewart?
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It seems the most likely scenario at this time. The long and "slow" descent combined with lack of communication rule out most other possibilities in my mind. Rapid decompression or possibly (but increasingly less likely?) a large systems failure. I haven't heard any mention of the transponder going silent so I take that to mean that they were squawking their assigned code all the way to the ground. I think Bill Gates ones said "6.40 minutes ought to be enough time for anyone (to reach over and communicate an emergency)."
 
ollopa said:
It seems the most likely scenario at this time. The long and "slow" descent combined with lack of communication rule out most other possibilities in my mind. Rapid decompression or possibly (but increasingly less likely?) a large systems failure. I haven't heard any mention of the transponder going silent so I take that to mean that they were squawking their assigned code all the way to the ground. I think Bill Gates ones said "6.40 minutes ought to be enough time for anyone (to reach over and communicate an emergency)."
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Unless your disassociated, then you're just watching the movie unfold. :popcorn:
 
They are suppose to have O2 readily available, so even with total lost of air pressure, only takes a couple of seconds to put the mask on, either there would have be a problem with the O2 or the pilots failed to get the masks on in time. Rapid decompression would be obvious and slow should have various warnings, so I can't understand how a pilot could not recover from a decompression event?
 
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teejayevans said:
They are suppose to have O2 readily available, so even with total lost of air pressure, only takes a couple of seconds to put the mask on, either there would have be a problem with the O2 or the pilots failed to get the masks on in time. Rapid decompression would be obvious and slow should have various warnings, so I can't understand how a pilot could not recover from a decompression event?
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If everything was normal until they hit the coast line, I can't imagine a slow decompression had anything to do with it. And at about 4000 ft/min descent they would have been back in breathable atmosphere in 5 minutes. Fast decompression with pilot incapacitation? Or just pilot incapacitation? Brb... need to don my tin foil hat.
 
teejayevans said:
They are suppose to have O2 readily available, so even with total lost of air pressure, only takes a couple of seconds to put the mask on, either there would have be a problem with the O2 or the pilots failed to get the masks on in time. Rapid decompression would be obvious and slow should have various warnings, so I can't understand how a pilot could not recover from a decompression event?
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Google "Payne Stewart Death" to find out.
 
41 more! Personally, I think you should leave it at 49,999 and create a new alt. It's like old age, what is there after 50K? :rofl:
 
N801BH said:
Interesting crash.... The CVR hopefully will shed some light.... Let's pray it is not another 370 deal with one suicide and 149 murders...:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::(
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Are you talking about the Malasia flight with the 777? Where was that determined to be a suicide?
 
Skywalker said:
This really hits close to home... :( I was born and raised nearby Duesseldorf and also know the town the teenagers and their teachers came from well. The town has less than 40,000 residents... This accident will have a huge impact on this town.

When I was at school (in Germany and more then 20 years ago :D) this kind of language training wasn't offered. If you wanted to learn a language you either went into a foreign country during summer vacation or went for six / twelve months into the country to learn the language. Most teenagers went to the US for the six / 12 months period. Going to Spain, France or elsewhere for a week was unheard of.

I wonder, what happens to this kind of education after this accident. :dunno: I wouldn't be surprised, if these travels would be cancelled for future classes.
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Very sad indeed. When I read about those teenagers on board, I immediately thought of all those kids from Montoursville that lost their lives on TWA 800. I was at the beach in North Jersey that night and remember seeing all the search lights on the water in the distance. :(
 
Matthew said:
I haven't looked closely at the flight path. Was it on course?
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Watching some CNN talking head yesterday it looked like the aircraft followed the same track as previous flights (which wasn't direct-to).
 
Just thinking out loud ...

The German press reported that the aircraft was AOG the day before the accident because of a problem with the nose landing gear door.

Is there a failure mode of the nose gear or door that could result in compromise of the flight deck and crew incapacitation ... ?
 
Henning said:
Are you talking about the Malasia flight with the 777? Where was that determined to be a suicide?
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My money in on that theory.... If the plane is in the drink.... and not sitting under a tarp in some field in the middle east...:redface:
 
Henning said:
Google "Payne Stewart Death" to find out.
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I did but they don't explain why the pilots couldn't recover, the voice recorder didn't record the decompression event. At 35,000 feet you have 30-60 seconds to get the mask on. I did talk to a pilot who flies Lear jets, he said that you are suppose to have the mask ready to go, I be willing to bet a large % don't, or don't check it during preflight, and trying to remember to turn on some valve or switch during a compression event is probably not going to happen.
 
teejayevans said:
I did but they don't explain why the pilots couldn't recover, the voice recorder didn't record the decompression event. At 35,000 feet you have 30-60 seconds to get the mask on. I did talk to a pilot who flies Lear jets, he said that you are suppose to have the mask ready to go, I be willing to bet a large % don't, or don't check it during preflight, and trying to remember to turn on some valve or switch during a compression event is probably not going to happen.
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Was the Payne Stewart accident a rapid decompression or gradual? I thought it was gradual.

Rapid decompression is rather obvious when it happens whereas a gradual loss of pressurization which can sneak up on you if you don't recognize the signs of hypoxia early enough.
 
At this point, without having the info from the FDR, speculation could easily be a time warp, and an encounter with ME-109G's, or FW-190D's.

Still i is interesting to speculate, so have at it! :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Was the Payne Stewart accident a rapid decompression or gradual? I thought it was gradual.

Rapid decompression is rather obvious when it happens whereas a gradual loss of pressurization which can sneak up on you if you don't recognize the signs of hypoxia early enough.
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9:27 they talked to ATC
9:30 they made a course change, thought to be manual
9:33 the failed to respond to ATC
 
N801BH said:
My money in on that theory.... If the plane is in the drink.... and not sitting under a tarp in some field in the middle east...:redface:
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I don't know if I buy the "pilot crashed it story" but I can almost GUARANTEE it's not "parked' on the ground anywhere. All the places you might want to land and store something of that nature in that area of the world is under pretty good surveillance.
 
If any good info can be recovered from the voice recorder, it's going to be very interesting to hear if the crew even knew what was happening. Was it a cascade of errors (mechanical, electrical, human) that fed back into itself, or was it one thing that broke?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Was the Payne Stewart accident a rapid decompression or gradual? I thought it was gradual.

Rapid decompression is rather obvious when it happens whereas a gradual loss of pressurization which can sneak up on you if you don't recognize the signs of hypoxia early enough.
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FWiW, you won't get a gradual decompression in the Airbus without getting an aural warning and a master caution alert when the cabin passes 13,000'. At 9,500' (+/-350) the ECAM also gives a EXCESS CABIN ALT warning as well.

Here's an incident with an Airbus pressurization: www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/JA8947.pdf
 
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teejayevans said:
I did but they don't explain why the pilots couldn't recover, the voice recorder didn't record the decompression event. At 35,000 feet you have 30-60 seconds to get the mask on. I did talk to a pilot who flies Lear jets, he said that you are suppose to have the mask ready to go, I be willing to bet a large % don't, or don't check it during preflight, and trying to remember to turn on some valve or switch during a compression event is probably not going to happen.
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The mask should already be plugged into the O2 ports and stowed in the armrest/sideledge or near your shoulder in a dedicated plastic box that it basically snaps into held by friction. Oxygen is already present at the mask controls.

Its pretty simple.

#1 Reach over shoulder and a small tug removes the mask

#2 Let the harness freely hang and grasp the plastic part that covers your face..

#3 Press the harness inflation button and sweep the mask over your head then release the button.

From a citation MM:

"The crew masks are normally stowed with the control set to 100 percent. When the mask must be donned, oxygen is immediately available with no additional action required of the crew."
 
So apparently the CVR was recovered but damaged and they're trying to recover its data. The FDR was also recovered but it was missing its data card. Odd.
 
I hadn't read about the FDR.
Do you have a link?
 
Badger said:
I hadn't read about the FDR.
Do you have a link?
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I saw this just now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0

>>>
Investigators said they had so far been unable to retrieve any data from the plane’s cockpit voice recorder, and the inquiry has been hampered further, an official said, by the discovery that the second black box, which was found on Wednesday, was severely damaged, and its memory card dislodged and missing.
<<<

But no telling where they got the information. It just says, "Investigators said..." and "...an official said..."
 
Matthew said:
I saw this just now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0

>>>
Investigators said they had so far been unable to retrieve any data from the plane’s cockpit voice recorder, and the inquiry has been hampered further, an official said, by the discovery that the second black box, which was found on Wednesday, was severely damaged, and its memory card dislodged and missing.
<<<

But no telling where they got the information. It just says, "Investigators said..." and "...an official said..."
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I was afraid of that...
 
I don't really find this odd or suspicious. I've only seen three pieces of wreckage larger than my bathroom wall with everything else looking like confetti. There was a lot of energy released in that impact.
 
ollopa said:
I don't really find this odd or suspicious. I've only seen three pieces of wreckage larger than my bathroom wall with everything else looking like confetti. There was a lot of energy released in that impact.
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Exactly. Wouldn't be surprised if the data card is under a rock
 
ollopa said:
I don't really find this odd or suspicious. I've only seen three pieces of wreckage larger than my bathroom wall with everything else looking like confetti. There was a lot of energy released in that impact.
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Except those black boxes are supposed to withstand 3200 Gs (yes, really) for several milliseconds. Something isn't right here.
 
The exterior case of the CVR was pretty mangled, I did attach the photos a couple of pages up. I don't know what part of the assembly holds the actual data recording, though.

Internally there may be cracked or broken circuit boards, so the problems they have with reading the data might be that they just need to go to plan B and pull whatever chips they can and read them using a different method.
 
woodchucker said:
I'm not sure which video Ryan was referring to, but here is a CNN video with nice graphical depictions as well as wx info.

CNN

The descent appears to have started shortly after crossing the coastline, but still within easy turning distance. But anyways, AP or no, where was the crew? Like you said, this will be an interesting one. Hopefully not checking on the status of landing gear indicator fuses!
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I think that was the same video, showed a good depiction of the flight path, and the nearby airports.
 
dBrad said:
Except those black boxes are supposed to withstand 3200 Gs (yes, really) for several milliseconds. Something isn't right here.
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Testing those things probably involves 3200Gs of shock applied to an X, Y, and Z axis while mounted to a test fixture. It probably does not include slamming anything else into it at the same time. If the case isn't compromised, the internal parts should be there.

I don't know if the FDR and CVR look similar or not.

Here's an image of the CVR recovered yesterday, compared to an undamaged unit:
 

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Matthew said:
The exterior case of the CVR was pretty mangled, I did attach the photos a couple of pages up. I don't know what part of the assembly holds the actual data recording, though.

Internally there may be cracked or broken circuit boards, so the problems they have with reading the data might be that they just need to go to plan B and pull whatever chips they can and read them using a different method.
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I suspect most of the electronic components inside are in what's called a 'potted' configuration. This is a good way to improve shock and g load resistance. If they are potted, it takes a long, long time with very careful tools(Dremel, etc) to get to the memory chips and then have them drafted on to a test bench setup to get the info off loaded. It can be done, but it's time consuming. If they are potted, the material like a resin can crack and when it does, it often cracks at the juncture of the device that is potted, meaning the memory chip may be cracked in multiple parts. If that's the case, then the DIP or SIMM or whatever chip needs to be cut away, and the actual memory IC inside will need to be transplanted to a new casing with a bunch of tiny connection wires. This is even more invasive, and time consuming, but if careful - it can yield results. I seem to recall that had to be done in the case of a military plane crash back in the 80s, but don't remember which one.
 
docmirror said:
I suspect most of the electronic components inside are in what's called a 'potted' configuration. This is a good way to improve shock and g load resistance. If they are potted, it takes a long, long time with very careful tools(Dremel, etc) to get to the memory chips and then have them drafted on to a test bench setup to get the info off loaded. It can be done, but it's time consuming. If they are potted, the material like a resin can crack and when it does, it often cracks at the juncture of the device that is potted, meaning the memory chip may be cracked in multiple parts. If that's the case, then the DIP or SIMM or whatever chip needs to be cut away, and the actual memory IC inside will need to be transplanted to a new casing with a bunch of tiny connection wires. This is even more invasive, and time consuming, but if careful - it can yield results. I seem to recall that had to be done in the case of a military plane crash back in the 80s, but don't remember which one.
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Yeah - I've dealt with potted electronics. Different materials are used for potting, some is more resistant to cracking than others.

If the internal connections between the memory modules and the outside world are damaged, it's going to be a while until the parts can be removed and put into a test jig. If the connections from the SIMMS (or whatever) are damaged, they'll be cut open and the internal parts can be recovered and read.

It's all do-able, as long as the pieces are there, it just can't be done in time for the next Yahoo News release every couple of minutes. And the longer it takes, the more time the talking heads have to fill with whatever speculation they can make up.
 
All aboard the 9:30 speculation train!

If it is potted, which seems a reasonable assumption, I'd be very surprised if they hadn't chosen a compound that can be chemically stripped without damaging the electronics. They must have anticipated having to do recovery from damaged boards. I suppose the bulk of the potting compound would still be mechanically stripped but that would require much less care.
 
I wasn't going to go into the anal retentive potting detail. Glad we have others who want that job.
 
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