Air Wagner..... He’s baaaaackk.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Mike Blackburn, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I talked about the VTF thing in other posts. But it's a long thread.

    The OAK 28R approach has a series of stepdowns prior to the FAF. The VNV profile in his avionics sets up the series and gives him vertical guidance to meet each. But his autopilot does not have VNV functionality, so, flying with it, he would literally have to dial in each succeeding altitude until the FAF became the active waypoint. (He got royally screwed up by this in some earlier, more "famous" videos when he was expecting the autopilot to do it and ended up in one of his famous dive bomb sequences.) And hand flying would be doing so manually. That's potentially a series of descend/level off/descend/level off changes.

    It turns out the extended glidepath on this approach keeps you above each stepdown. So all he is doing by switching to VTF is making the FAF the active waypoint and picking up the glidepath early. I'd probably do the same in this situation.

    Of course, being Jerry and apparently not really understanding the why and the limitations, he just uses it in all sorts of situations. Some unnecessary. Some not appropriate. Mostly harmless but some potentially dangerous because I don't believe he really understands the approach or is paying attention to those stepdowns.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  2. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I don't know the A/P he has, but why not only use the lateral guidance, and manually hit the step downs with trim/power rather than VTF?
     
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  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He could do that. But why not stabilize the approach by capturing the glidepath early and making one configuration change ("keep your speed up" requests aside) instead of a series of descents and level offs?

    Yes, I know it's Jerry to whom "stabilized approach" is an oxymoron.
     
  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Well, there are a couple approaches out there where the glidepath does take you below the stepdown fixes - although, that may be limited to a couple ILS approaches, but it's still a possibility for GPS also I would think.
     
  5. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach

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    That’s true and it’s why most people read and comprehend the approach plate prior to flying the procedure. The only strategy that works for every approach is to comply with the procedure as published.
     
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  6. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

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    And by activating VTF, you have eliminated all of the step down fixes outside of the FAF, so you have increased your workload trying to make sure you haven’t gone below the required altitudes.
     
  7. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That depends on the avionics. The G1000 keeps the waypoints on the final approach course, Jerry's avionics probably do too.
     
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  8. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Will the G1000 keep you above the step downs if the glidepath from intercept to MAP goes below an intermediate fix if you go VTF?
     
  9. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No, you have to watch for that, it happened to me once, I just hit the ALT button, stopped the descent, then did the rest of the steps using the VS button.
     
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Of course there are. But let's translate this to old school. Make it the days before GPS. There were (and are) ILS approaches where the glideslope goes below pre-FAF step down fixes. There are two techniques to deal with it.
    1. Capture the glideslope and watch for the stepdowns, adjusting as necessary
    2. Dive and drive to each step down.
    I don't see anything wrong with either. And I don't think RNAV changes that.
    upload_2021-7-16_11-0-42.png
     
  11. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Do you think certain people really look for the step down alts if they hit VTF and let it do what it does, though? I'm fairly certain some just let the A/P do what it's gonna do, and if they bust an altitude, oh well.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not with Jerry's. He's flying with a GTN. The fixes along the FAC remain, so it doesn't matter.
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Certain people absolutely look for the step owns. Others don't even know they are required to remain at or above them. But that's true with or without an autopilot.
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    WWJD ?

    :D
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Edit: That's wrong. It actually doesn't work. Not well, anyway. Yes the along tack waypoints remain in the flight plan, so they are accessible, but whether you use activate leg or VTF, you don't get waypoint sequencing before the FAF - the active waypoint is the FAF. So you end up using the moving map or some other situational awareness tool - or a second unit, which would be fine - to keep track of your progress. Now Jerry does have that but I doubt he would use it for the purpose.
     
  16. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

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    That’s great, I always hated that the 430/530 dumped them. We are getting one of our airplanes back this week which has been upgraded to the GTN’s this week, so I am looking forward to using them.
     
  17. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes but does the G1000 let you know when - with a primary nav function - you are crossing them once you to to VTF or activate the leg to the FAF?
     
  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    So this is where all the Cleared for the Approach forum stuff has gone. I haven't looked at the Jerry thread for a long time. @EdFred 's "oh well" above is really not all that cavalier. In the area were talkin about here, closer in, it is kinda a 'no harm, no foul' thang. The reason for the rule is about traffic underneath you. The Glideslope keeps you off the rocks regardless of how hot it is. It's the effect that the heat has on the other planes altimeter that is the problem. That airplane's 'actual' altitude is going to be higher than what it's altimeter reads. Heat don't affect the Glideslope so your altimeter is going to be lower than your 'actual' altitude. Now, ATC running another airplane underneath you at NIXDE at 1100 just ain't gonna be happening. And the effect that each degree of temperature has on how many feet difference is less at lower altitudes then up higher where the whole column of air has expanded.
    It was way out there on the ILS's to KLAX RWY's 24/25 where it was causing problems. Planes getting on the Glideslope around 35 miles out up around 9000 were picking off traffic underneath them assigned altitudes a 1000 feet below the ILS Chart altitudes. It was on those hot LA basin temperature inversions. I know you know all this, just replying to you to set the context and you had the pictures
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Absolutely. We think of altitudes as having an obstacle function but they can also have a traffic separation function. Either way, it is our job to understand and comply with minimum, maximum, and mandator altitudes in published procedures. The OAK approach just happens to be a no-harm/no-foul - pretty sure somewhere along the way I saw that the GS actually meets the crossing restrictions.

    That's actually my issue with Jerry and his automatic VTF. I understand why he does it at KOAK. It's been vetted, so to speak - by repeated use. But finding something which works in one situation doesn't necessarily mean it is appropriate for all. If you don't understand why it works, you end up with the LAX approach problem.
     
  20. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    upload_2021-7-16_13-9-2.png
     
  21. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Honestly, it's been a while since I've done a VTF non-precision, I believe it does, in fact, I think the Vnav function works too, but I'm not sure. I'll see what the manual says later.
     
  22. Van Johnston

    Van Johnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Latest video comments on other YouTubers, his takeoff/departure/terrain clearance philosophy, and address the call sign issue.
     
  23. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    What philosophy could there possibly be? Just follow the damn procedure.
     
  24. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    the jerry philosophy of "I'm always right and anything other people perceive as me doing wrong is someone else's fault".
     
  25. Daleandee

    Daleandee Cleared for Takeoff

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    "Yeah ... are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes?" :dunno:
     
  26. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    The latest one that I see, he discusses the 421C crash at Monterey. His discussion also gets the departure wrong and would theoretically turn into terrain instead of away from it. Is that the one?
    upload_2021-7-18_8-2-28.png
    upload_2021-7-18_8-2-44.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It won’t play. It’s just pics. Can you put the video here?
     
  28. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    I did the screen caps in that post to illustrate what was said about the crash. Since you asked for the video, here it is:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswPnYCyqJQ
     
  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You mean you don't agree turning left in advance in case the right engine fails is a good reason for not flying the procedure as published?
    upload_2021-7-18_12-0-53.png
     
  30. Flying Keys

    Flying Keys Filing Flight Plan

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    He took the KLLR-KOAK vid with the botched ODP down
     
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  31. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He’s taken several videos down before due to the uproar they caused. He’s even shut his entire channel down for a while. And the thing is, HE STILL WONT GET IT and will continue to defend his actions and blame everyone else but himself, and from what we can see he makes zero effort to attempt to fix any of his mistakes. Ever. To him, he’s getting annoyed at all the negative comments (and probably gets tired of deleting them and only keeping the good comments), not saying “hhmmmm, hey wait a second, maybe there’s a learning opportunity here…”
     
  32. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Maybe this guy subscribes to the old adage, ‘a bad reputation is better than no reputation at all.’
     
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  33. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It's all about the clicks. Smooth proper IFR flying is about as exciting as watching sap run in January. Dropping out of the clouds at a 45* angle and then "saving" the approach, now that's some exciting stuff right there!
     
  34. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Line Up and Wait

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    You guys have no sense of style...it's all about stylin'...:)
     
  35. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    It would be great if Wagner would become Peter’s test pilot for the Raptor.

    We can then combine the two threads into one catastrophic crescendo of palm slabs to the forehead!
     
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  36. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Pattern Altitude

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    Doesn't he know the way to get clicks is to pimp your wife/girlfriend/wife's girlfriend in the still of the video?
     
  37. DogoPilot

    DogoPilot Pre-Flight

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    Not sure if that would work as well for Jerry. :dunno: