Air Current story that MCAS was not needed on the 737 Max

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by PeterNSteinmetz, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Southwest, United, American, you name it. They all have large 737 fleets and want to keep the same type rating just with a newer more efficient airplane. Not as many 757 operators or pilots around, so a new 757 may just as well be a clean sheet airplane.
     
  2. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Setting aside the type rating issue and looking only at development costs, a clean sheet design will almost always be far more expensive to develop and certify than mods to an existing design, particularly one that is still in production. If it's not practical or possible to modify a configuration to meet the requirements, then a new design is warranted. Yes, I realize the 757 is no longer in production.

    Nauga,
    stretchy
     
  3. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    My comment was intended from the airline's point of view. Bringing a new 757 into service for an airline would require re-typing a large group of pilots, which is expensive and time consuming. Much easier to bring in a newer shinier version of an existing platform. Which is why this problem was created in the first place. The airlines aren't concerned about the development side of things except what it adds to the acquisition cost.
     
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  4. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I agree with everything you said in your last post. You might also say that they aren't concerned by a new type rating except for what it adds to the operating cost. ;)

    Nauga,
    and two sides of the same coin
     
  5. Ghery

    Ghery Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As a passenger (self loading cargo) I like the 757. It has always been a comfortable ride (as long as the legroom is adequate - think UA E+).
     
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  6. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    The 757 is too heavy. Performance and range is great but few routes need it.

    A 737-9 MAX carries roughly the same number of passengers as a 757-200 but the 757-200 burns 60% more fuel. No airline is going to choose that.
     
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  7. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    I’ve long thought it odd that I would need 50 hours of dual in type to be insurable in the ASEL PA-46, but the airlines found enough value in the 737 type rating qualifying pilots to fly the Max that it was better for Boeing to put in weird auto-trim software than to deliver a new type.
     
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  8. YKA

    YKA Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It is really time for Boeing to come out with a new design to replace the old 737. Just adding more seats to the basic old design obviously didn't work out very well. They could call it "Hopefully this Crashes Less Often".
     
  9. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    Any passengers that refuse to fly on the MAX don't have very good awareness or comprehension skills. Not only has the aircraft been subjected to the most thorough engineering review in the history of aviation, every pilot that flies it has undergone rigorous simulator training.
     
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  10. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    Hasn't worked out well? More than 10,500 737s have been built since 1966. Over 7,000 of those are Next Generation 737s built since 1993. You know, the ones with additional seats. The fleet has surpassed 300 million flight hours.

    Statisticians won't be surprised that 737s are involved in many commercial aircraft losses, they make up over 30% of the worldwide commercial fleet and fly more hours than any other variant.

    I guess someone has to provide the uninformed comments that appear in internet forums. It may as well be you.
     
  11. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I would get off if the safety card said Lion Air or Ethiopian Airlines.
     
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  12. YKA

    YKA Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Exactly my point, it's 55 years old, time for a new model.
     
  13. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    That’s the kind of thinking that scares spouses all over the world.
     
  14. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The 757 always looked like a cheetah to me, skinny body on tall legs. I heard it was so the cockpit height matched the 67 so both could be flown on the same type rating.
     
  15. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    When I was graduating from college, the 757 and 767 were in development. The 767 was predicted to require a pitch augmentation system to maintain controllability in all regimes. GE up in Elmyra was working on it at the time (along with the autothrottles). I interviewed there at the time and the comment that if the two redundant systems couldn't agree, the error would be written in NVRAM for recovery from the wreckage. I was relieved to find that a couple of years later (while working for a different aerospace company) that the flight testing had decided that the passenger versions weren't going to require it (though the tanker variants did end up using it).
     
  16. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why? About the ONLY thing that is 55 years old on it is the shape. Everything else has been updated and modernized over the years.
     
  17. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    In general, Boeing was developing a clean sheet aircraft called the NMA. And they bet the bank the market, i.e., the airlines, would wait for it. Then Airbus came out with the NEO and the market shifted to the NEO to include long term Boeing customer American Airlines. Enter the MAX 8, then the MAX 9 to compete with the NEO or risk losing market share for the NMA. Boeing took it one step further and had the MAX 10 in the pipe with its unique telescoping landing gear. The market controls the OEM not the other way around. Just ask Airbus how their A380 model is working out.;)
     
  18. Jeff767

    Jeff767 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Every stretched version of each type airliner out there has some weird bandaids incorporated to accommodate the stretch.
     
  19. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    The 737 has had "weird auto-trim" software for decades. It's the Speed Trim System and auto-trims many dozens of times on every flight. MCAS is an additional function added to the STS software. The Douglas DC8 and DC9 had pitch-trim/Mach-trim compensator systems which put pressure on the control yoke at higher Mach speeds. Some transports have stick-pusher systems that violently push the yokes down, so hard that it rips the control wheel out of the pilot's hands, as they approach a stall. Many transports, more than not, have artificial feel systems which fake the "feel" of air loads on the controls. Concorde and the MD11 had trim fuel tanks in the tail and would pump fuel in/out of them to change the CG during different phases of flight. MCAS in the 737 is not unique.

    They spent quite a bit of time presenting ideas for new designs to their customers. The customers didn't want to wait for it or to pay what it would have cost. Airlines wanted the MAX for it's commonality with existing 737 fleets and its best-in-class per-seat efficiency.

    Boeing's mistake was in classifying the risk associated with unscheduled MCAS activation in flight. It was classified in a lower category, which allowed the separate channel operation, based on the assumption that crews encountering the failure would apply the Runaway Stabilizer procedure which, when applied, works. The first crew (Lion Air incident flight) to encounter an unscheduled MCAS event did (eventually) apply the correct procedure and landed safely. The second (Lion Air accident flight) and third (Ethiopian) did not.

    Also, none of those three incidents was the result of a failure of an aircraft component. The two Lion Air incidents (same airplane) were the result of Lion Air installing an unairworthy AoA sensor (improperly overhauled). The Ethiopian flight had a bird strike which detached the AoA vane from the AoA sender immediately after liftoff.
     
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  20. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    Seriously, my wife would rather get a LSA than a 60's-70's vintage Cherokee 140 or 180 because she "doesn't want a plane older than we are." And she doesn't even know about the wing issue on some PA28's.
     
  21. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    Even when they stretched the King Air into the Beech 1900D and put random pieces of sheet metal all over it like a kid building something out of cardboard :eek:
     
  22. Omalley1537

    Omalley1537 Cleared for Takeoff

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    “The airliner that’s shaken, not stirred “...
     
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  23. Omalley1537

    Omalley1537 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Apparently I beat the crowds then...lol
     
  24. scarpozzi

    scarpozzi Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm just happy they are going to emphasize training on these modified 737s and MCAS to prevent future problems.

    For some reason, this reminds me of the opposite issues with the A300-600 rudder incident where the simulators emphasized hard right and left rudder to get out of specific situations. This training ultimately trained the pilots to overreact and lose their rudder.
     
  25. Busflyer

    Busflyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Pretty sure cockpit height being tied to a common type rating was not a driving factor. Shorter gear legs = dragging engines across the concrete.
     
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  26. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I heard it was because if the gear legs were any shorter the wheels wouldn't reach the ground. ;)

    Nauga,
    MOTO
     
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  27. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    And it takes full power to taxi. Messy.
     
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