Aerobatics in a 172?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Sac Arrow, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    I'm seeing Youtube videos of aerobatics and spin training in 172's. Are there any variants of the 172 that are approved for aerobatics? I can't seem to find any.
     
  2. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Spins are approved in the utility category, but I dunno about anything beyond that,
     
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  3. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    As mentioned above some approval for various maneuvers when loaded correctly.

    See POH/AFM per model of 172...

    But none I know of are rated for the FAA definition of aerobatic flight.

    As the models get newer the AFM gets much more specific about maneuvers and bank angles and such, as I recall.
     
  4. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Well, the FAA's definition of aerobatic flight is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight. This could literally be anything besides loops and rolls. As with many FAR's it's deliberately vague and open to the interpretation of the FSDO person who is looking to nail you. ;) Pitch and bank angle limitations are only relevant when it comes to when multiple aircraft occupants must wear chutes.
     
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  5. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Depends on what exactly you are calling aerobatics. A spin is not.
     
  6. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Sure it is, just not when it's done with a CFI for the purposes of training.
     
  7. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Receiving training and having a CFI on board doesn't suddenly make a spin nonaerobatic. It does exempt you from the parachute requirement, however.
     
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  8. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    True, and more clearly stated.
     
  9. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    My nephew used to be an airshow pilot, upside down is a pretty normal way of flying.
     
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  10. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I've just never flown a 172 that wasn't placarded against intentional spins.
     
  11. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    172 will spin fine.....but, you may want to avoid snap rolls and inverted flight.

    Slipping with flaps is another animal....I got no data on that. lol ;)
     
  12. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Interesting!

    I honestly haven’t flown any that new more than a handful of times.

    All the old ones allow them when loaded in the Utility category limits.

    I don’t own any new enough AFMs for Cessna stuff to refer to the home library to check this at the moment. Piper gets very specific in modern AFMs. Makes sense considering they’re inches thick compared to the old pamphlet sized POHs of old.

    Was just looking at logbook. Yeah. I have few flights in restart or newer 172s. The vast majority of time later on is 182 or bigger, and the majority of the rental fleet around here is older — or folks want to fly the older stuff to save $20 or more an hour on the rental cost.

    Dunno. The 172 I had access to was sold for an impressive dollar number just before Covid. It was a very early restart model and I think I flew it once. Maybe twice. Don’t remember a placard but our mission wasn’t anything spin related.

    Some of the older ones in local fleets have slowly surpassed the capabilities in their labels of the G1000 ones too. That’s been an interesting twist caused by the ADS-B mandate.

    Have RIDDEN as a non-participating pilot in them about ten times I suppose. Friends calling up saying they’re going up, wanna ride? Usually those were rentals I wasn’t technically allowed to teach in or whatever. I mean ya can always give pointers or play Safety Pilot type stuff, in that circumstance.

    Which is usually what I was sitting there doing. I don’t need PIC hours logged for anything — never was chasing any commercial jobs and such.

    Kinda surprised after looking at the logbook here on the laptop at the severe lack of newer 172s really. Just never had a reason I guess.

    Uh oh. I’m going to go look but since I’m a high wing fan I can’t publish the results. But I just realized I bet I have more low wing Piper time total by far than new 172 time. Yikes!

    If I get back to flying that MUST be rectified!!!

    No wonder the planet went crazy in 2020. I displeased the high wing gods.

    :) :) :)
     
  13. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    From what I know, that is mostly restart models, 2000+, especially G1000 equipped ones because they have a lot of equipment in the tail moving the CG aft.
     
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  14. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That definition is preferenced with "FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION" which means 91.303 which limits where you can perform aerobatic flight.
    It has ZERO meaning for any other part of the FAR,

    As you note, it means something else for the requirement to wear parachutes (which doesn't even call it aerobatics). It means something else for aircraft certification and limitations in Part 23. This is where what you CAN and CAN NOT do in a 172 (or any other airplane) come from.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  15. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    I don't get your point. 91.303 is the ONLY section of the FARs that covers "aerobatics" and its sole definition is described there.
     
  16. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Did you read my post? Part 23 very much talks about aerobatic operations and what the aircraft has to do to be certified to all them to be performed. This is where the answer to SacArrow's question is. All 91.303 says is don't do them below 1500 or over crowds, etc...
     
  17. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Does Part 23 provide alternate/supplemental definitions of what "aerobatics" is? None that I see.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  18. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    FYI: Depends on how the aircraft was certified and listed in the TCDS (older aircraft) or in the AFM (newer aircraft).
    upload_2020-7-13_13-58-36.png
     
  19. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    This was my question, to what is the OP referring to as aerobatics? Which videos in particular is OP referring to?

    Wouldn't shock me to find a video of someone looping or rolling a 172. We probably all know "that guy".
     
  20. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Here's an example. Looks like some full loops, a hammerhead, and some barrel rolls. Lots of spin training videos but that has already been addressed.
     
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  21. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    POA needs to stop him, he looks dangerous! ;)
     
  22. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Airshow acts are an exception. There are numerous airshow acts using aircraft in ways no manufacturer's POH would ever allow for.
     
  23. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Exception to what?
     
  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Honestly I’ve been lucky enough NOT to know any of those guys since 1992 when they both combined brains in a single cockpit, literally and figuratively, at the bottom of a loop that reached terra firma.

    The internet has shown me some of them now that it’s not dialup like it was back then, but I’ve been blessed not to have associated with anybody I suspect behaves anything like those two did.

    That was also when the Saturday morning crowd hung out in the FBO telling lies, and nobody there was surprised either.

    Good experience for me though back then with probably a whopping 30 hours. I almost think my instructor appreciated the sad circumstances to be able to tell a 19 year old, going on 20 in two months...

    “Don’t ever act like they did. You see what happened.”

    It stuck.

    There was one guy who worried me a bit for a very brief period until I learned he was a FAC in Vietnam. His tendency toward no fear doing some stuff at low altitude was backed by a crap ton of hours doing it, and he knew his risk tolerance. Also quite the stick, after I got to know him.

    The one ride I got in his Bird Dog was then, and still is, way above my skill set and comfort zone, but fully controlled and sane throughout. As long as you were ok with the same risk level of course, and for me... super temporarily.

    Was worth it for the hour aboard for me. Some might disagree. Nice to see what that Irplane could do and know someone could do it, but not my long term cup of tea. He enjoyed it, but didn’t have much choice when he started flying like that. LOL!
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Technically not an exception. They fly under a written waiver. Well that’s the exception, in writing from a FSDO.

    Just off the top of my head, the audio of that clip indicates an upgraded engine. 172 doesn’t usually make prop tip supersonic sounds.

    Unknown other upgrades.

    One could dig public record and maybe find the exact waivers issued to an airshow act, I think. Never tried that.

    But have seen a couple on paper. They’re very detailed.

    Sean Tucker and Chuck Aaron have also talked about aircraft mods in interviews and that data usually isn’t public.

    Chuck specifically talked about it being kept secret for his helicopter because it was just too much to have anyone else basing their own mods off of the ones on his aircraft — for fears of he could handle the risks he knew were inherent but didn’t want anybody else thinking his risk was appropriate for them without doing the homework and engineering themselves.

    No idea which interview he talked about that in years ago, but it’s on the internet somewhere where I ran across it.

    Tucker talks more about his changes as needed to pull off things he can’t in precious aircraft but also says quite clearly that he has to practice like crazy and make sure his body can handle it more than the aircraft.

    Pretty wild biz, airshow work. Very interesting risk management mindset.
     
  26. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    Acording to Piper, not only spins. Even Steep Turns are "Acrobatic".

    Screenshot_20200713-143659_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
     
  27. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Steep turns exceeding 60° bank.
     
  28. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Part 23 didn't provide another definition rather a different certification category for aerobatics. How you operate (91) aerobatics is different than how the aircraft is certified (23) for aerobatics. No different that a Utility certification.
    https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...AB51E741104F7C1686257996006CAD44?OpenDocument
    To how the aircraft is certified and what AWC is issued. Most "airshow" aircraft that operate outside their Part 23/CAR3 certification limits are issued a Special AWC (Experimental) and have very specific Operating Limitations for the aircraft.
     
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  29. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    FYI: that was all part of his "mystique." There are no modifications made to the aircraft. Everything is factory. And the only difference between the Austrian Red Bull BO-105s and the US 105s are the US uses the stretched version of the 105.
     
  30. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Yes all I was pointing to is that since aerobatics is defined in no other part of the regs, the definition in 91.303 is the one accepted as what the FAA considers to be "aerobatics".
     
  31. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    But that's a non-sensical leap when the definition says it applies only to the 91.303. By failing to follow the actual wording, you'd assume that all flashlights need D cells, etc..
     
  32. Ryan A

    Ryan A Filing Flight Plan

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    Nothing if you're a civilian

    Everything if you're military ;)
     
  33. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Only took 20 posts to answer the question. That must be a record on PoA
     
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  34. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Well I guess it doesn't matter to those who don't fly acro, but when the FAA gives a definition of "aerobatics" in the only section of the FARs that lists the rules regarding aerobatic flight itself, you're being obtuse if you refuse to consider this the FAA's "definition" of aerobatics. Those of us in the aerobatic community must remember what it is, when it matters.
     
  35. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    The question was if there are any 172 variants "approved" for aerobatics. That answer is no, as far as FAA certification goes. That airshow video is from South Africa.
     
  36. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    That airplane has an experimental CofA.

    Nauga,
    and part 22.5
     
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  37. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don't see anything specifically prohibiting spins except for in the normal category. They're ok in the utility category in the S model Nav 3 manual I have.
     
  38. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That guy and that plane are in Nevada
     
  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Follow the TCDS, for all details.
     
  40. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Seriously?!

    I really thought he was more of a stand up guy than that, to tell that fib to a reporter with a straight face.

    Sigh. Show biz.

    That’s truly disappointing. Nothing against his flying of course, awesome stuff. Just the decision to lie about it, if true.

    Guess it’s time to re-watch House, M.D. and recalibrate expectations. LOL