Aerobatics in a 172?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Sac Arrow, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    1,562
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    A different perspective: The secret was that there were no secrets. He's really just that good. He did not want anyone to know he was flying a stock aircraft because if everyone kept believing there were after-market mods that allowed him to do things not possible in an OEM machine, they would spend more time trying to figure out the mods than learning how to fly the machine like him.

    Seems like reasonable gamemanship to me. :D
     
  2. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    394
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sierra_Hotel
    I don't see anything in there either with regard to spins and the R or S models. Plenty of notes on the earlier models where they're authorized in the utility category. Am I missing it?
     
  3. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    33,973
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    If it isn't there it is not authorize.
     
  4. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    53,778
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    I’m torn. In show biz, perhaps.

    I’m the replacement at my company of the engineer who played that “I’m the only guy who knows all this stuff, so I can do as I please” game.

    They didn’t even interview me on site so he wouldn’t know he was being fired.

    The team had all of his silly stuff reverse engineered in a month and replaced with better in three. Was pretty fun, honestly.

    I’m probably the only person who ever felt even slightly bad for him. That kind of thing just doesn’t work out well in systems engineering.

    Been fun now for seven years I think? Eight?

    I’ve got no secrets. If the young guy wants my workload and salary he’s welcome to it. I have plenty to do that could make us better at what we all do that would pay us both better.

    I guess a two helicopter show couldn’t do that in the airshow biz though. I get it. At some point wowing the customer in that biz doesn’t raise the ticket price at the gate and the number of tickets sold doesn’t rise either.

    We have an easier opportunity to grow both.
     
  5. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    394
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sierra_Hotel
    But then that would mean chandelles, steep turns, and lazy eights not be authorized either. TCDS states "The airplane must be operated according to the appropriate Pilot’s Operating Handbook and FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual (POH/AFM)" and "All FAA required placards are included in Section 2 of the applicable POH/AFM." So, going back to the manual, those maneuvers plus spins are authorized in the R and S model in the utility category according to the manuals I have available.
     
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    33,973
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    It is by model, and remember that the POH is a placard.

    The TCDS has notes, by model and serial number.
     
  7. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    3,404
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FYI: Once an FAA approved flight manual was required by 21.5 after 1979, a number of required operating limits were moved from the TCDS to the AFM. Hence the reason for 2 sets of notes in the TCDS by variant. So AFM/RFM Chapter 2 (usually) now contains those operating limitations previously listed in the TCDS for those older models. It's my understanding the reason for the change was a AFM is much easier to update than a TCDS and that prior to 1979 there was no other approved document available to list/move such limitations.
     
    denverpilot, dmspilot and kgruber like this.
  8. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    768
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ateamer
    Sean Tucker flies three times a day pretty much year ‘round, plus works out six days a week. He is motivated and driven more than almost anyone I’ve ever met. He is also extremely aware of his abilities and limits, and is his own biggest critic. I expect he’d say he’s never had a perfect flight.

    He is one of those guys who uplifts everyone. It’s impossible to have a bad day when he’s around.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  9. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    3,404
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    And that's what it was... gamemanship. Goes along with his shtick he mod'd stiffer blades, solid MRH, bolted xsmn to deck, and taught himself to fly helicopter aerobatics. Those of us who worked/flew the 105 used to get a kick out of his "brilliance." The problem was the German/Swiss side of Red Bull were stating the actual facts to include the guys who taught Aaron and Fitzgerald the aerial moves. Not to take away from their achievements but the current US pilot Fitzgerald is night and day different than Aaron plus he'll tell you it's a stock 105. And just to note, with Fitzgerald running the show now the US 105 team is back in business.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
    denverpilot likes this.
  10. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,649
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    They may be saying it's modified to keep other pilots from trying such things in their unmodified aircraft...
     
  11. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    3,404
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FWIW: without derailing this thread much further... if that was the case, then the manufacturer, MBB, didn't get the memo as they usually went out of their way to show what an "unmodified" 105 was capable of. Every 105 pilot knew what the aircraft could do as the MBB pilots and various demo pilots were always happy to show it off. MBB/Eurocopter actually made a number of demo vids of its flying agility. Put a couple below filmed 10+ years before Red Bull was even around. There was only one pilot who tried to make a mystery out of it....;)

     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
    denverpilot likes this.
  12. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    53,778
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Thanks for sharing that. Forgot to say that last week. Impressive rotor system on that thing, with what little I’ve read and understand about whirlybirds.
     
  13. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    12,306
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Don’t need no stinking rigid rotor! ;)

     
    denverpilot likes this.
  14. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    3,404
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Ha. Too bad it became a throw-away 407 after that show. As they say, back in the day... the first loop...
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  15. Warlock

    Warlock Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,118
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warlock
    Charlie Zimmerman was and is a great guy and flew a stock 105. Also was also aCaptain in the German Army and side job was the factory test pilot...he had his personal aircraft provided to him and did most of the maintenance as well. In the summer of 89 we flew a two ship up to see Charlie as he wanted a proper Igloo cooler. We bought one at the PX and removed the 20mm ammo can in one of our AH-1 to get it there. Charlie was a friendly nice guy...
     
  16. GaryM

    GaryM Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    New Jersey (KMMU)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gary M
    Pretty cool. Though if no one had ever looped a helicopter before, starting the attempt from 30' AGL was an interesting choice.
     
  17. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    27,433
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    Aerobatics in a Skyhawk is sorta like racing your Prius.
     
  18. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,456
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    [​IMG]
     
  19. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    6,159
    Location:
    KRDU
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    It's going to vary by model. Looking at the generic POH for a 172S,

    Normal category, Chandelles, Lazy Eights, Steep Turns and Stalls (except whip stalls) are authorized, with recommended entry speeds.

    In Utility category, you can also do intentional spins.
     
  20. Hacker

    Hacker Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hacker
    The perfect error-free flight has never been flown.
     
    ateamer likes this.