ADS-B

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by BuschPilot, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. BuschPilot

    BuschPilot Filing Flight Plan

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    I was just wondering how would somebody deal with the new ADB-B law in like an older Piper Cub or any older planes that has no electrical systems.
     
  2. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    They're exempt if there is no electrical system. The requirements are the same as for the Mode C veil, obviously you can't operate in Class C and B.
     
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  3. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Champ driver is right. Stay the heck out of rule airspace. Do it for everyone’s safety including yourself.
     
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  4. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    I have, and I will continue to fly in the Mode C veil. I know where the approach routes for the fast movers are for the airports in the area. I also know where they're doing 200kts at 1500' AGL, so I stay away or underneath that area. As long as you're at least somewhat smart about it, it's not the dangerous thing that some think it is.
     
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  5. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Have you read the regulation?
     
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  6. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    14 CFR 91.225

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -

    (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

    (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
     
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  7. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    My airplane was not certificated with an engine-driven electrical system.

    Mind you, that depends on whether "certificated" refers to a type certificate or an airworthiness certificate. But "...or subsequently certified" must refer to an STC, as homebuilts don't get re-certificates.

    Not sure if I'm going to roll those particular dice, though...

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  8. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well...just remember that "rule airspace" is a very small percentage of the area most of us use. Keep your eyes out for traffic , especially after January 1, 2020. There are a lot of airplanes that elect not to comply as well.
     
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  9. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    I can fly for 250 hours worth of gas for what ads-b would cost me, handful of spots I can’t go- overwhelming majority of country is still wide open to me... if you don’t have to go into controlled airspace- then just forget about all the hubbub
     
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  10. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Great! Glad we are all free to choose including myself.
     
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  11. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Unfortunately for me the handful of spots I can't go include desirable destinations like DC, Philly, and Boston. It's hard to get good utility for an airplane for travel in the northeast without ADSB compliance in the future. Different strokes...
     
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  12. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    Absolutely a “different strokes” issue by all means. In your case you need to go there to get good utility from the plane. I only say what I do as I’ve had more than one conversation around my field and others with guys getting ready to pony up the cash, and I’ve asked when’s the last time they were even in class c, and several have said “years, but I don’t want to be not able to if I need to sometime”

    It’s those folks I challenge to think about it from the angle of how many live flying hours are you spending for a “someday maybe”... Doesn’t sound like you are even close to that group...
     
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  13. ahypnoz

    ahypnoz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Two things to consider

    1) Drones are proliferating at an astonishing rate, there are now more drones flying than GA aircraft and they will be flying higher and faster and all over the open sky, including farm fields (Ag drones), river, lakes etc. Basically all the places that Piper Cubs like to fly. Most of the legal ones will be flying outside of controlled airspace, not inside controlled airspace.
    Also the age and the maturity of the average drone pilot will be continually decrease as the costs of drones continue to drop.
    Beginning in January 2020, all DJI drones weighing more than 250 grams (.55 pounds) will display ADS-B Out-equipped manned aircraft position information to the drone pilot, leveraging ADS-B In data to allow remote pilots to detect and avoid all aircraft broadcasting their position and other information via ADS-B Out.
    If you do not have ADSB out they will never be able to see you and avoid you.

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2018/10/16/drone-airplane-crash-test-llr-orig.cnn

    2) In regards to ADS-B-in, AOPA reported a “controversial” study that examined the effect of Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) In on general aviation and air taxi accident rates found a significant reduction in the likelihood of an accident, which decreased by 53 percent, for aircraft equipped with ADS-B In. It also found that the likelihood of a fatal accident decreased by 89 percent for aircraft using ADS-B In. One would think that the more aircraft that have ADS-B out the safer the sky’s will be and given how often ATC calls out traffic and the number of times I hear, negative contact it can only help.
     
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  14. BuschPilot

    BuschPilot Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanx for clearing this up for me, I know there are some solutions like the Stratus that would give some information of aircraft around you to a point. Though saying that you are also not completely grounded to fly, minus Class B and C airspace.. But it would be a shame if all the older aircraft and ultralights with no electrical systems would be completely grounded because of the FAA changing the rules.
     
  15. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Why would 1/1/2020 make any difference in your visual scan? Ultralights, Cubs, birds, and a gazillion other things aren't going away.

    Equipment has a way of failing or being left in the "off" position too.
     
  16. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Most who have closely inspected this report would agree that is seriously statistically flawed, and even at face value does not demonstrate a statistically significant conclusion. The FAA freely admits that this "study" was intended to help justify additional funding for ADS-B ground equipment. While I agree with the goal of improving ADS-B infrastructure, as a scientist I object to the using misleading or specious "information" for doing so.

    The real safety benefits of ADS-B out is more aligned with providing better ATC in otherwise challenging radar environments than anything else. In a radar-equipped ATC environment, the value of ADS-B out is greatly diminished or largely redundant. There have been stretches in northern NY and in the more sparsely populated, mountainous northeast where radar coverage is not available at some IFR altitudes, which creates some clumsiness for IFR flight in these areas. If ADS-B can improve that situation, I'm all for it. But playing a magical-thinking safety card is not going to be convincing to any thinking person. (Of course, we're talking about Congress, here, so maybe that "thinking person" thing could be a problem...)
     
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  17. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I'd say the real value in ADS-B is equipping everyone else with the information to provide their own separation services and weather data.
     
  18. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Time for a bit of a wake up call. Most people live in or near big cities. Most pilots live where most people live. You might be just fine flying your puddle jumper around looking at the fields surrounding Bumphuk East Egypt, but it is quite possible that the next guy is going to want the box that allows him to fly the thing home. One thing for certain, after 2020 any airplane meant for travel is going to be useless unless you live someplace terrifically unpopulated.
     
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  19. TigerGene

    TigerGene Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Or are willing to land outside of ADS-B airspace, pay much less for avgas and the rental car, and drive in to where you need to be.

    One can still get plenty of utility without ADS-B, especially if you live in the vast areas of the country where it isn’t required and can avoid the airspace on those trips that take you to larger cities. It depends on how often you REALLY need it.
     
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  20. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    It'll get really really old circling around all the Charlies and all the Bravos really really fast. If you're flying a puddle jumper and just want to go up and look at the ground you mightn't need ADSB. If you have a fast airplane and intend to travel it is in no way optional. And like I said, after 2020 if you want to sell your airplane I think you'll have a harder time if it isn't ADSB equipped.
     
  21. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    My plane has been based within a Class B veil for over twenty years. Other than the temporary tower at the Arlington Fly-In, I haven't had radio contact with an FAA facility for at least the last 15.

    Seems to me that if an aircraft without ADS-B were to fly VFR into veil airspace and land at one of many uncontrolled fields, no one would be the wiser.

    During my 20+ years of ownership, no one in officialdom has looked at my airplane to verify it has a transponder. I figure it'll be the same for ADS-B. I could probably just install a dummy ADS-B switch on the panel to satisfy the lookie-loos.

    I WILL install a system, because I'm basically a law-obeying guy (and may have a target on my back due to my public opposition to the requirement). But I think Joe Schmo with an older 172 would not be likely to get caught.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  22. TigerGene

    TigerGene Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've travelled to both coasts and to the far Northern reaches of Michigan from East Texas, and somehow managed to avoid ALL Class B and C airspace in the process! It was not as difficult as some seem to think, and I really didn't feel like I was flying much out of my way to do so. Lots of friendly little airports in this country and most with cheap avgas!

    There are those that truly need ADS-B, they fly into the airspace all the time or are based very close to or within the veil. There are those that don't need it at all, and there are those that might need it from time to time. And finally there are those that think they need it because someone told them their plane would be grounded or worthless without it. Which group you fall into will determine what you should do.

    Personally, I fall into the "might need it from time to time" group and feel that the cost of ADS-B equipment and installs will drop dramatically after 2020. I plan on installing at some point BUT it might be worth my while to wait. Not having ADS-B is not a huge inconvenience for my travels.