ADS-B

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by BuschPilot, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. BuschPilot

    BuschPilot Filing Flight Plan

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    I was just wondering how would somebody deal with the new ADB-B law in like an older Piper Cub or any older planes that has no electrical systems.
     
  2. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    They're exempt if there is no electrical system. The requirements are the same as for the Mode C veil, obviously you can't operate in Class C and B.
     
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  3. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Champ driver is right. Stay the heck out of rule airspace. Do it for everyone’s safety including yourself.
     
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  4. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    I have, and I will continue to fly in the Mode C veil. I know where the approach routes for the fast movers are for the airports in the area. I also know where they're doing 200kts at 1500' AGL, so I stay away or underneath that area. As long as you're at least somewhat smart about it, it's not the dangerous thing that some think it is.
     
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  5. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Have you read the regulation?
     
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  6. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

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    14 CFR 91.225

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -

    (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

    (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
     
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  7. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    My airplane was not certificated with an engine-driven electrical system.

    Mind you, that depends on whether "certificated" refers to a type certificate or an airworthiness certificate. But "...or subsequently certified" must refer to an STC, as homebuilts don't get re-certificates.

    Not sure if I'm going to roll those particular dice, though...

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  8. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    I can fly for 250 hours worth of gas for what ads-b would cost me, handful of spots I can’t go- overwhelming majority of country is still wide open to me... if you don’t have to go into controlled airspace- then just forget about all the hubbub
     
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  9. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Great! Glad we are all free to choose including myself.
     
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  10. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    Unfortunately for me the handful of spots I can't go include desirable destinations like DC, Philly, and Boston. It's hard to get good utility for an airplane for travel in the northeast without ADSB compliance in the future. Different strokes...
     
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  11. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    Absolutely a “different strokes” issue by all means. In your case you need to go there to get good utility from the plane. I only say what I do as I’ve had more than one conversation around my field and others with guys getting ready to pony up the cash, and I’ve asked when’s the last time they were even in class c, and several have said “years, but I don’t want to be not able to if I need to sometime”

    It’s those folks I challenge to think about it from the angle of how many live flying hours are you spending for a “someday maybe”... Doesn’t sound like you are even close to that group...
     
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  12. ahypnoz

    ahypnoz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Two things to consider

    1) Drones are proliferating at an astonishing rate, there are now more drones flying than GA aircraft and they will be flying higher and faster and all over the open sky, including farm fields (Ag drones), river, lakes etc. Basically all the places that Piper Cubs like to fly. Most of the legal ones will be flying outside of controlled airspace, not inside controlled airspace.
    Also the age and the maturity of the average drone pilot will be continually decrease as the costs of drones continue to drop.
    Beginning in January 2020, all DJI drones weighing more than 250 grams (.55 pounds) will display ADS-B Out-equipped manned aircraft position information to the drone pilot, leveraging ADS-B In data to allow remote pilots to detect and avoid all aircraft broadcasting their position and other information via ADS-B Out.
    If you do not have ADSB out they will never be able to see you and avoid you.

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2018/10/16/drone-airplane-crash-test-llr-orig.cnn

    2) In regards to ADS-B-in, AOPA reported a “controversial” study that examined the effect of Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) In on general aviation and air taxi accident rates found a significant reduction in the likelihood of an accident, which decreased by 53 percent, for aircraft equipped with ADS-B In. It also found that the likelihood of a fatal accident decreased by 89 percent for aircraft using ADS-B In. One would think that the more aircraft that have ADS-B out the safer the sky’s will be and given how often ATC calls out traffic and the number of times I hear, negative contact it can only help.
     
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  13. BuschPilot

    BuschPilot Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanx for clearing this up for me, I know there are some solutions like the Stratus that would give some information of aircraft around you to a point. Though saying that you are also not completely grounded to fly, minus Class B and C airspace.. But it would be a shame if all the older aircraft and ultralights with no electrical systems would be completely grounded because of the FAA changing the rules.
     
  14. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Why would 1/1/2020 make any difference in your visual scan? Ultralights, Cubs, birds, and a gazillion other things aren't going away.

    Equipment has a way of failing or being left in the "off" position too.
     
  15. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    Most who have closely inspected this report would agree that is seriously statistically flawed, and even at face value does not demonstrate a statistically significant conclusion. The FAA freely admits that this "study" was intended to help justify additional funding for ADS-B ground equipment. While I agree with the goal of improving ADS-B infrastructure, as a scientist I object to the using misleading or specious "information" for doing so.

    The real safety benefits of ADS-B out is more aligned with providing better ATC in otherwise challenging radar environments than anything else. In a radar-equipped ATC environment, the value of ADS-B out is greatly diminished or largely redundant. There have been stretches in northern NY and in the more sparsely populated, mountainous northeast where radar coverage is not available at some IFR altitudes, which creates some clumsiness for IFR flight in these areas. If ADS-B can improve that situation, I'm all for it. But playing a magical-thinking safety card is not going to be convincing to any thinking person. (Of course, we're talking about Congress, here, so maybe that "thinking person" thing could be a problem...)
     
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  16. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I'd say the real value in ADS-B is equipping everyone else with the information to provide their own separation services and weather data.
     
  17. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Time for a bit of a wake up call. Most people live in or near big cities. Most pilots live where most people live. You might be just fine flying your puddle jumper around looking at the fields surrounding Bumphuk East Egypt, but it is quite possible that the next guy is going to want the box that allows him to fly the thing home. One thing for certain, after 2020 any airplane meant for travel is going to be useless unless you live someplace terrifically unpopulated.
     
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  18. TigerGene

    TigerGene Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Or are willing to land outside of ADS-B airspace, pay much less for avgas and the rental car, and drive in to where you need to be.

    One can still get plenty of utility without ADS-B, especially if you live in the vast areas of the country where it isn’t required and can avoid the airspace on those trips that take you to larger cities. It depends on how often you REALLY need it.
     
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  19. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    It'll get really really old circling around all the Charlies and all the Bravos really really fast. If you're flying a puddle jumper and just want to go up and look at the ground you mightn't need ADSB. If you have a fast airplane and intend to travel it is in no way optional. And like I said, after 2020 if you want to sell your airplane I think you'll have a harder time if it isn't ADSB equipped.
     
  20. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    My plane has been based within a Class B veil for over twenty years. Other than the temporary tower at the Arlington Fly-In, I haven't had radio contact with an FAA facility for at least the last 15.

    Seems to me that if an aircraft without ADS-B were to fly VFR into veil airspace and land at one of many uncontrolled fields, no one would be the wiser.

    During my 20+ years of ownership, no one in officialdom has looked at my airplane to verify it has a transponder. I figure it'll be the same for ADS-B. I could probably just install a dummy ADS-B switch on the panel to satisfy the lookie-loos.

    I WILL install a system, because I'm basically a law-obeying guy (and may have a target on my back due to my public opposition to the requirement). But I think Joe Schmo with an older 172 would not be likely to get caught.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  21. TigerGene

    TigerGene Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've travelled to both coasts and to the far Northern reaches of Michigan from East Texas, and somehow managed to avoid ALL Class B and C airspace in the process! It was not as difficult as some seem to think, and I really didn't feel like I was flying much out of my way to do so. Lots of friendly little airports in this country and most with cheap avgas!

    There are those that truly need ADS-B, they fly into the airspace all the time or are based very close to or within the veil. There are those that don't need it at all, and there are those that might need it from time to time. And finally there are those that think they need it because someone told them their plane would be grounded or worthless without it. Which group you fall into will determine what you should do.

    Personally, I fall into the "might need it from time to time" group and feel that the cost of ADS-B equipment and installs will drop dramatically after 2020. I plan on installing at some point BUT it might be worth my while to wait. Not having ADS-B is not a huge inconvenience for my travels.
     
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  22. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    So what defines “need?” If it is defined as necessary to legally penetrate rule airspace that’s one thing. If need is defined as having everything to make flight as safe as possible everywhere you fly for both yourself and those you share the sky with, then it is a different definition.
     
  23. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    No one would be the wiser? I wouldn’t suggest that you try it come January 2nd.
     
  24. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    Like I said, *I* won't, since I've made too much noise about the excessive costs of the program and figure someone might try drop a dime on me. I'll spend a quarter of the value of my airplane making it compliant. I think if you had to spend a quarter of the value of your Mooney complying, you might squawk, too.

    But let's play what-if games. Say, for instance, there's a Pietenpol hangared down the row from me, with an O-200 engine with starter and generator. Let's say Pete the Piet Driver has the same opinion of program as I do. We're both based at an uncontrolled field just seven miles from a Class B airport (Sea-Tac). Say he decided NOT to install ADS-B.

    Come January 2nd...what's his chances of getting caught?

    My guess is that, as long as Pete confines himself to uncontrolled fields and doesn't talk to any ATC entity, no one is going to know. Someone who has their eyes glued to their ADS screen and is shocked when a Pietenpol wanders past his nose is going to think, "Well, maybe he doesn't have an electrical system."

    Thus we get to the famous Transponder/ADS-B loophole: "...(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section."

    The FAA has previously ruled that an "electrical system" consists of a battery, a generator or alternator, and a regulator.

    So...what keeps the guy from just removing the generator from his airplane, and charging the battery on the ground? Friend of mine at the same airport didn't like it when the Class B veil went up, with the same requirement for a transponder, and he did EXACTLY that. Cecil removed the generator from his T-18. Looked in the records, didn't find there was any mention of having a generator in the airplane at the time it was licensed. Flew happily for ten years after that.

    Died a natural death just last year. Never was caught. So, obviously, no one is really checking.

    But WAS he operating illegally?

    Hmm. Let's go back to the the wording of the exclusion. What does "Certificated" mean? Airworthiness Certificate? Or TYPE Certificate?

    Because the Piet doesn't have the latter. Or any other homebuilt.

    I think you can argue that the regulation is referring to a type certificate, since no homebuilt can EVER be "subsequently certified with such a system installed..." This is obviously referring to the STC process... the Supplemental TYPE Certificate. So...why can't Pete the Piet driver claim the exemption, even with the full electrical system on his plane?

    Technical details of many aircraft are not extensively recorded at the time they earn an airworthiness certificate. The official records of Pete's Piet probably have no mention of an electrical system. Like my friend Cecil, he could remove the generator with none the wiser. Or...just leave it in, and claim it hadn't been there when the plane was first licensed.

    And, again...who's going to catch him? If he'd just flying to uncontrolled fields, and not talking to ATC, who in officialdom will notice? Ironically, one flies RIGHT over Seattle Center when leaving our home airport....

    Otherwise...heck, just put a dummy toggle switch on the panel and label it "ADS-B." Who's going to know? "Hey," says Pete. "It's a wood airplane, and I installed the antenna inside the fuselage. That's why you don't see it."

    It's kind of like the FAA requirement to wear a seat belt while flying. Nobody knows if the pilot complies until an accident. And he or she is likely not concerned, at that point.

    What's the fine for if they do catch you? But what's the chance the FAA *will* catch you? Wanna bet the FAA will be more interested in making money using the ADS-B "snitch" feature (e.g. identifying pilots violating airspace) than to hunt down Pietenpols without ADS-B?

    Now, obviously I'm NOT intending to do any of the above. Just saying SOMEONE could.

    Initially, the quotes I was seeing for ADS-B were in the $6,000 range (80% of my airplane value) and I was really seeing red. It would have been cheaper to BUILD a new airplane (without an electrical system) than complying. New wood, new glue, new fabric, re-use the engine, wheels, and all the welded bits. Just leave off the generator.

    I have (reluctantly) decide to comply; the uavionix unit gets the price down to just (just!) 25% of the aircraft value.

    But will I actually turn it on? Who will know?

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  25. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    What is the point of owning an airplane if you have to land 30 nm from any metropolitan destination and drive the rest of the way? I'm trying to imagine how to file IFR in the northeast without ADS-B in 2020.

    Rental cars are pretty cheap in metro areas. I get great rates in DC, Philly, Portland, etc. In some of the out of way airports rental cars can be expensive or of limited availability.
     
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  26. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    No switch, just a breaker. You would want the antennas also.

    (Echo UAT is a pretty easy self install, btw, if you have a pre-existing mode C transponder like my time honored Narco KT76A)
     
  27. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    Both the Pietenpol and Fly Baby are wooden airplanes. Could claim the antenna is out of sight in the fuselage. Friend of mine did that with his Falco. For real, I mean...☺

    Ron Wanttaja
     
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  28. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Ron, you just want to go up and look the ground. My guess is you'll be fine, unless someone gets pi$$ed off and drops a dime, or you get ramp checked, or you actually ball it up. By the way, I easily spent 25% of my airplane's value on an avionics upgrade which included ADSB. Included a bunch of other things, since I needed a new indicator and my number 1 comm crapped out. Still, owning an aircraft is not an exercise in judiciary responsibility. If I needed an engine the financially responsible thing to do is scrap the airplane and buy another. A good paint job could easily run 50% of my aircraft's value. Aircraft have declined in value while their services have increased. I'm afraid your objections are falling on deaf ears. No one wants to spend money for something that isn't going to help them fly the airplane.
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    :rofl: Desirable.
     
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  30. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, the $300 price difference when you figure in handling fees, ramp fees, parking fees, security fees, fuel that's $3 more per gallon...sometimes it makes way more sense to land outside.
     
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  31. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Most of the places I fly are small strips within the veil and airspace of Bravos. Can't get there without ADSB. Hell, every other takeoff I fly into the radar veil of controlled airspace. Why you have a dog in this hunt I'll never know, Ed. You don't even own an airplane, if I'm not mistaken. Like I said, if you have a fast moving aircraft and want to travel, staying out of Bravos and detouring around Charlies (can't overfly) will get old fast.
     
  32. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I did a 4400 mile trip over 12 days and went into what is now ADS-B airspace exactly thrice. Billings, Portland, OKC. And I rerouted around it exactly zero times. I didn't even have to go into those three places, and my plan wasn't even to go into them. I just did because as the trip evolved, I tossed them in last minute. Just this month, I went into Louisville. Could have easily stopped outside the Charlie like I did the past two years, but changed it up this year, just because I wanted to try something different. Wouldn't have changed my plans at all had I went into JVY instead. In fact it would have been easier to not fly into Standiford. Just because YOU do things a certain way does not mean the rest of the country does. Something academics tend to constantly forget.

    State of Michigan has, 230+ airports, about 10% are affected by ADS-B airspace. (The majority of which are under the Detroit Bravo). Indiana has 4. Wisconsin has 6. We could run the numbers for the rest of the country and show how much it's NOT required if you like.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  33. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    When I bought my ride it had no transponder. Apparently it wasn't an issue for previous owners. But, since I live deep inside the 30nm ring of death around DTW, I now have mode C and ADS-B.
    After 2020 some are going to have ADS-B and some ain't. Just like now - some people have Mode-C and some don't. Ain't nothing going to change.
     
  34. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    If I recall that trip headed west, where people are fewer and controlled airspace less.

    Ohio has 19 in controlled airspace, which are all in the major population centers. Perhaps Michigan airports aren't as affected by controlled airspace because no one wants to live there because, well, it's Michigan. But if you're going to go anywhere there are lots of people, you're are likely as not to deal with this stuff, especially if you live in the East.
     
  35. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Just because roaches and rats tend to congregate in certain areas doesn't mean it's a great place to live.
     
  36. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Neither does it necessarily mean their horrid either. And if you're going to visit someone odds are they live in a city with some controlled airspace. Most Americans live in cities.
     
  37. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The last 10-20 flights I've made to visit friends haven't involved ADS-B airspace. Plus, city != ADS-B airspace, especially when you have a bunch of reliever airports.

    Holland, MI is defined as a city. It has 3 airports that serve it. None of them controlled.
     
  38. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Ed, just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect everyone. Of the last flying around the patch flights I probably could have done without. I can't for any of my travel flights.
     
  39. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The same exact thing applies to you. I at least acknowledge the other side exists. You live in your little world of academia, in a crap hole town, with friends that only live in other crap hole towns, so obviously every other person in the country must live in and only have friends in crap hole towns.

    Half the country lives outside of ADS-B airspace, as much as you don't want to believe it, because YOU don't live outside it.

    Someone asked a reason why not to go into ADS-B space. I stated that money savings could be one. And here comes steingar...."Well, I have a fast plane, and therefore whatever I do in my fast plane, EVERYONE else must do too, and no other possibility exists."
     
  40. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Cowman
    I imagine a lot of discussions like this taking place when they first introduced Mode C transponders.

    I like having the data I get from my ADS-B receiver for sure, I think in the long term it's going to be a good thing. That said, I could probably do more than 95% of my flying without it. The only place I go regularly that I can think of where it would be an issue is a flying hamburger destination at an airport under a B shelf. There are other places with food. Sometimes I cross through Bravo airspace on my way somewhere... I can go around. Very very few destinations I've been to would require it and I've been all over. That said I'm still buying the obnoxiously overpriced transponder and getting it done to not have to think about the limitation and because I actually think it's a decent safety upgrade. I don't blame anyone for not doing it though, it's god awfully expensive and hard to even find a shop that has time in their schedule right now.

    How much safety? Well, how big of a problem are midair collisions in aviation? Probably not much of one, they seem to be pretty rare. The weather data in is probably more valuable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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