a real and present danger

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Tom-D, Jan 17, 2019.

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  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I'm not one to rat some one out to the feds, but I'm really concerned that some unsuspecting pilot is going to get hurt with an aircraft that is being worked on by 2 non A&Ps.
    This aircraft sat in the weeds on OKH's north side for well over 15 years because I told the owner his aircraft had serious corrosion in the rear wing spar and refused to do an annual.
    Now these two pilots have dragged this beech musketeer out of the weeds, removed the 160 horse engine and installed a 150 used Lycoming. (no paper work) They are now cleaning the aircraft and getting it ready to sell.

    FSDO is not working So I'm really at a loss as to what to do.
     
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  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I’m not one to rat people out, but if someone’s life is potentially at risk, than something needs to be done. With that said, any thorough pre-buy on this aircraft should reveal these issues, not to mention the lack of log entries for the engine swap. Lots of red flags should be raised by the potential buyer and his/her mechanic.
     
  3. WheelSpatz

    WheelSpatz Filing Flight Plan

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    Call the FSDO anyway, and then the airport manager.
     
  4. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

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    FSDO yes, but the airport manager has no legal authority to stop someone from flying.
     
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  5. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

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  6. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    What's the crime? Pulling an airplane out of the weeds to clean it up?
     
  7. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    One that tom doesn’t think should fly
     
  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    If the airplane is unairworthy and in the state that it’s described as, than Tom has every reason to be concerned.
     
  9. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Every FSDO has people working and available for essential safety issues. Have you tried calling your FSDO or the safety hotline? You should have.
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I have e-mail direct to my PMI, I get an automated response
    he knows the aircraft, but he doesn't know the latest about the new work.
     
  11. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Sure. But he has no more authority on the matter than the guys that drug it out of the weeds. In fact he has less, unless he’s been messing with someone else's plane.
     
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  12. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The issue isn't with the mission, its with the details. Bob and Bob (names changed to protect identity of the guilty) in the ever elusive means of flying for cheap see this hulk. They drag it out, clean it off, lube it up. Make a few repairs with bailing wire and twine. Find some engine (wrong engine) that is capable of converting dinosaurs into noise and smoke and bolt it up. They now have an aircraft that is now physically capable of leaving the earth under its own power for at least some amount of time. That is the crime, the aircraft is not legally airworthy. The bigger danger is to them, any unsuspecting passengers, and the general public which they overfly.

    An airplane is not like an old car or tractor, that so long as the tires hold air and the engine makes noise, is safe to operate. While it is admirable to restore a non-flying aircraft back to the world of the living, it must be done the right way. People that do what the OP describes give aviation a bad name when they go and hurt themselves or others. I've seen it happen before, and I'm sure I'll see it happen again.
     
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  13. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    No crime (unless logs are fudged), but they've also swapped the engine.
     
  14. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Way back in 2000 I refused to annual it, why would I go back into that liability loop.
     
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  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Your PMI might not be one that’s working. Call the FSDO manager.
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Remember if it is cheap enough, some one will buy it.
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Go to google maps and search A.J. Eisenberg airport, zoom I until you can see the big hangar to the north, its the aircraft behind the hangar.
    it has sat there since 2000 +-
     
  18. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Nope, but he still has every right to be concerned.

    As I mentioned above, any thorough pre-buy should reveal these anomalies.
     
  19. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I could be concerned about a lot of things that are none of my business.
     
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  20. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    You guys pay way too much time to things that aren't your business. To argue about it on the internet is worse.
     
  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Some ones first annual will be a horror story.
     
  22. kmacht

    kmacht Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Unless you see them trying to fly it then I would mind my own business. Do you know for a fact that they are trying to sell it as a usable airplane? Maybe they had a motor they are trying to sell to the experimental crowd and are just using the airframe to be able to show buyers that it runs. How do you know that one of them doesn't have an A&P certificate or that there was no paperwork involved with the engine swap. You are making alot of assumptions just based on something you think you saw.
     
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  23. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

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    Sneak in and spray paint "EXPERIMENTLE" on the side. Make sure you spell it wrong so any would be flyer would be concerned about getting in it.
     
  24. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Maybe, maybe not. It could be exactly what you think it is, in which case someone could get suckered into buying and flying a deathtrap. On the other hand, are you sure they aren't working in cooperation with an A&P/IA to do the work and get it properly inspected and signed off? It's happened before. And some Mousketeers did have 150HP Lycomings, at least according to the TCDS.

    Buddy of mine bought an older airplane that needed a fair amount of repair. He did the work himself, with an A&P/IA supervising and inspecting along the way to make sure it was done right and all the paperwork (which had numerous problems when he bought it) was done right and past deficiencies fixed. If you were to drive past the hangar, though, it looked an awful lot like a non-A&P doing repair work on a type certificated airplane.

    All that said... if you're thinking it's a Bubba patch job, let the FSDO know. I mean, if they're doing that much work they have to be expecting a visit at some point.
     
  25. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Because I know both of them.
    It's a small airport, every body knows every thing
     
  26. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    MYOB - You don't know what they are doing or what their intentions are. Maybe they are working with an A&P who is going to sign off on the work. Maybe they are just putting it together to sell then whoever buys it if they do any due diligence at all will realize the engine doesn't match and there is no sign off. Not super hard to figure out a change like that.
     
  27. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Unless you have proof that they are trying to sell it as airworthy, it's really much ado about nothing. If they want to swap a Lycosaur into it without an A&P sign off and kill themselves, let Darwin have at it. The moral question comes into it if they let it get off of the ground with anyone in it other than themselves.
     
  28. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Would an average pre-buy inspection detect the problem?
     
  29. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    As far as I know, an A&P cannot sign off on a swap to a different engine, so this horse is dead on the ground. And you'd be wrong, BTW, about it being easy to detect; an engine of the same form factor but different specs would likely go unnoticed. I'd like to know what was going on, especially as this airplane has had dangerous corrosion detected.
     
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  30. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Line Up and Wait

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    Not always unfortunately
     
  31. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Exactly right...I believe you are correct. It’s good to mind your own business 99% of the time, but if someone’s life is going to potentially be at risk without them knowing, than action needs to be taken in some form or fashion.
     
  32. JCranford

    JCranford Pattern Altitude

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    If its in as good a condition as the other equipment that appears to be around that hangar, itll never fly again!
     
  33. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow, surprised as some of these comments. I would hope that any pre-buy would uncover an illegal engine swap. I checked all the S/N's against the logs when I performed my pre-buy...
     
  34. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    Okay RyB, once is a mistake, twice, a typo, three times I gotta tell ya... It's "THEN, not THAN!"
     
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  35. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    This. No crime has been committed. What someone else does is none of your business.
     
  36. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    Leave it alone, don't be a busybody - unless you have certain knowledge of bad intent, you're operating in ignorance. Maybe they don't know the regs, and will drag in an A&P later, and learn they've messed up. Maybe it's an exercise in self-education; maybe it's going to on static display. Maybe you mis-identified the engine and the qauls of the actors.

    You can do anything you want, to any airplane, as long as you don't fly it, or pass it off as airworthy. One of the best things you can do is keep your nose out of other airplane owner's business.
     
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  37. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    hey I’m frum East Tennessee...we’re not known fer our grammer...but thx 9!
     
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  38. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    If you wanna do ramp checks, get a job with the faa.
     
  39. texasclouds

    texasclouds Line Up and Wait

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    Next time you see them working on it, ask what they are doing. Please film the encounter, vertical iPhone orientation of course, and post the YouTube link here for our...um...education.
     
  40. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers
    Or remodel your bathroom for it..
     
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