A&P progression

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

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Timbeck2
I've ordered study materials for the three tests. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years in the Air Force and I don't know how much that will help as far as getting my certificate. Anyway, my question is: Say I pass the tests, would the "normal" progression be to apprentice for an AI? Is there a DPE equivalent for mechanics?
 
I am a little fuzzy on the details but your airforce experience will only qualify you for the powerplant test. You are going to need someone to sign you off on it. As far as the IA you need to be an active Ap for a few years to even be eliligible. Also to stay current you have to sign of multiple annuals a year or take a class.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've ordered study materials for the three tests. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years in the Air Force and I don't know how much that will help as far as getting my certificate. Anyway, my question is: Say I pass the tests, would the "normal" progression be to apprentice for an AI? Is there a DPE equivalent for mechanics?
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Yes, and a practical test that you will need to spend a day or so doing with them in addition to the written.
 
Three years as a working A&P before you can take the test for IA (Inspection Authorization, not the other way around).

My last boss was a Designated Mechanic Examiner for many years. Based on what he has told me about the recent graduates of A&P schools, you don't want to become one. Those kids wouldn't know Shinola if they could open the can.
 
I have no ambitions to become an IA, I just wanted to know if I need to apprentice under one or any other options that others may know.

To be clear, I want to get my A&P certificate. I know I have to take at least 3 FAA tests. Beyond that, I don't know much of anything.*

*Other than I'm a decent wrench and aren't afraid of getting my hands dirty.
 
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Thanks for that link Brian, I especially like the paragraph:

You must get 18 months of practical experience with either power plants or airframes, or 30 months of practical experience working on both at the same time. As an alternative to this experience requirement, you can graduate from an FAA-Approved Aviation Maintenance Technician School.

In order to "study" for the practical test, how would that be accomplished and with whom? In general, what sort of things are on the practical test and I realize that it varies for all the mechanics.
 
For starters, before you can take any written or practical test(s) you're going to need an 8610-2 form qualifying you to take the test. The testing center and the DME will check to see that you have the correct paper.

So, how do you get an 8610? That's what you do the apprenticeship and/or military experience to get. Find a mechanic willing to have you work under their supervision and get to work.

As a side note, you are seeking a mechanic certificate. On that certificate you can have airframe, power plant, or both privileges. This is why there are three written tests, one is general, one is airframe, and one is powerplant. If you're only doing airframe or only doing powerplant then you'd only take two written tests and would only be obligated to do the tasks related to the certificate sought on the practical test.
 
I think the DME has a checklist of things that need to be demonstrated, its probably an FAA document and online somewhere
 
A lot will depend on which inspector you go to do your interview with... I spoke to two or three different FSDO inspectors (at different FSDOs) and to summarize what they told me: "If all you have is military experience, don't bother coming to schedule an interview."

-So, I sat on my stuff, continued to learn, and got recommendation letters from licensed mechanics. Then I studied most of the material in the books for the three tests BEFORE I scheduled my interview with the Frankfurt FAA International Field Office (I had moved to Germany by then). I went with two other applicants. I was the experienced aircraft electrician, one of my group was an experienced heavy crew chief, the third was a guy with at least 12 years of turbine engine experience.

I think at least two of us interviewed with the same inspector: the first guy (crew chief) had a 20-minute interview, and walked away with authorization to take all three tests. I went in next, and he initially told me that I was only eligible for the Airframe and general. I asked: "are you sure?" and after I had noticed from the decorations on his office walls that he was a former Army Warrant Officer hello pilot. He asks me, "why, what significant engine experience do you have?"

Then we played 20-questions! He had me explain the inner workings of a GE T-700/701C Hydro Mechanical Fuel Control Unit, how a magneto works, and about 18-other questions. After getting them all on the mark, he says: "Your way better prepared than that last guy, for sure! You'll be fine.." And I left with authorization for all three tests...

The third guy went in, with a decade of heavy turbo shaft/turbofan engine experience to his credit. He wasn't prepared, and left empty handed...

Now granted, I worked so long to get my tickets, that I could have graduated from a part-147 A&P school a lot faster...
 
To show my ignorance even more...here's a couple of other questions.

So is taking the written tests the last part of getting the A&P certificate? If I'm reading that right, I need to prove to (the DME?) that I'm worthy of taking the tests?
 
Timbeck2 said:
To show my ignorance even more...here's a couple of other questions.

So is taking the written tests the last part of getting the A&P certificate? If I'm reading that right, I need to prove to (the DME?) that I'm worthy of taking the tests?
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No, you go to the FSDO with evidence that you have the requisite experience needed to take the tests. The inspector you visit with then issues the 8610.

After that, you go take the written tests. Once the written tests are passed, you prepare for the oral/practical. A DME or a FSDO inspector then performs the practical test and hopefully you walk away with a mechanic certificate.
 
Mucho gracias fellas.

mondtster you said: "go to the FSDO with evidence that you have the requisite experience needed to take the tests." then you get the 8610. The 8610 lists the experience that I have such as military etc. That sounds backwards or I'm probably (most likely) missing something.

edit: I just Thomas' post again, it makes sense. I need to provide my DD-214 and any other documents of training I've received to the inspector and then get the 8610. It that filled out by me or when I meet the inspector and he/she fills it out and gives it to me?
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Mucho gracias fellas.

mondtster you said: "go to the FSDO with evidence that you have the requisite experience needed to take the tests." then you get the 8610. The 8610 lists the experience that I have such as military etc. That sounds backwards or I'm probably (most likely) missing something.
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You need authorization from the FAA to take the tests. 8160 is the application, they will approve or deny it.

IA holders get to fill out an application every time they renew the IA certificate.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've ordered study materials for the three tests. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years in the Air Force and I don't know how much that will help as far as getting my certificate. Anyway, my question is: Say I pass the tests, would the "normal" progression be to apprentice for an AI? Is there a DPE equivalent for mechanics?
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Yes, they are called DMEs, they will administer the practical portion of the exam.
 
bnt83 said:
(8610) aPPLICATION FOR aIRMAN cERTIFICATE OR rATING


You need authorization from the FAA to take the tests. 8160 is the application that will approve or deny it.
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Yep, there is a block (on the back I believe) that the inspector will sign. The signed 8610 is what authorizes you to take the tests.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Mucho gracias fellas.

mondtster you said: "go to the FSDO with evidence that you have the requisite experience needed to take the tests." then you get the 8610. The 8610 lists the experience that I have such as military etc. That sounds backwards or I'm probably (most likely) missing something.
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Your MOS will determine what portion of the tests you can get signed off with out other documentation. Electronic types usually only get the General portion. Engine mechanics usual get the "P" and the "G" --no"A" Airframe types usually get the "G" & "A" no "P"

qualified Enlisted flight engineers will get all three.
 
Tim, either call your FSDO and ask them what your MOS qualifies you for or take a look at FAA Order 8900.1 located at FSIMS.FAA.GOV. Once you know what you qualify for, fill out the application form, set an interview time with the FSDO, take all your supporting documents to the FSDO, be prepared for some questions and good luck. Once you have a signed form, go to any FAA written exam testing center and take the written exams. Most likely in your case based upon your statement that you were a jet engine mech this will be the General exam and the Powerplant exam but not the Airframe. After you pass the writtens, you will set up a time to do the oral & practical with a DME. If you pass those, you will be a Powerplant Mechanic. If by chance your FSDO signs you off for both then you can add the Airframe to what I wrote above. If not, then you will need 18 months of practical experience doing airframe work in order to qualify for the Airframe. This means the equivalent of 18 months of full time work or approximately 3120 hours. That is my understanding of the process.
 
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I benefitted by going to A&P school in that the DME's I had for practical were my instructors, so they knew me. The majority of the practical was spent talking about my 4 years Air Force Avionics Instrumentation Systems experience, which they admitted was above their experience. Yeah, I had to tension a cable and safety the turnbuckle inside a small wooden box (which was a pretty good challenge) had to level a Piper Tri-Pacer for weighing and some tech research and hardware safety wiring. It was actually fun.
 
I looked up the DME in my area (Tucson) and he teaches at Pima Community College. Regarding Skydog's comment about about the 18 months for the airframe, I wonder if I could take the airframe courses offered there. I wouldn't "graduate" since I plan on clepping the engine and possibly the general part due to my previous experience.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've ordered study materials for the three tests. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years in the Air Force and I don't know how much that will help as far as getting my certificate. Anyway, my question is: Say I pass the tests, would the "normal" progression be to apprentice for an AI? Is there a DPE equivalent for mechanics?
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Thought you were ATC? Before or after you got tired of being out in the elements? ;)
 
Timbeck2 said:
Anyway, my question is: Say I pass the tests, would the "normal" progression be to apprentice for an AI?
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There are a few variables to what is normal. You could get on with an airline (121 or 135 operator) and never hear of, or have a need for, the term AI, or IA, ever again. Yes, there are apprentice programs out there, few and far between. I'm sure many A&P's go the route of working at an FBO that have IA on staff, technically not an apprentice, but you do have to work within the bounds of FARs.

65.81 General privileges and limitations.

(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
I looked up the DME in my area (Tucson) and he teaches at Pima Community College. Regarding Skydog's comment about about the 18 months for the airframe, I wonder if I could take the airframe courses offered there. I wouldn't "graduate" since I plan on clepping the engine and possibly the general part due to my previous experience.
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If it is a Part 147 school and you complete the airframe only portion of the program, they should be able to issue you the required documentation to take the Airframe exams. Talk to them and the FSDO though about your plans before you spend any money.
 
mscard88 said:
Thought you were ATC? Before or after you got tired of being out in the elements? ;)
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Mark, let me be perhaps the first to tell you this. You're getting old and forgetful. I've explained this at least twice in other threads before. I was a jet engine mechanic from '82 - '92, I cross-trained into ATC in '92, I retired from the Air Force in 2006 and have worked ATC for the DoD ever since.

I don't want to be a full time A&P, I just want to be able to work on things legally and perhaps help a few friends out. I'll keep my day job until I can't pass the physical anymore or until I get tired and/or fed up with it.
 
OK if ya say so, but I don't recall the jet mechanic part. I crossed trained too, from CE. I was talking to the career NCO guy about cross training and told him I wanted C-130 engine mechanic and he said "are you f$#%&g nuts! He came from aircraft maint and talked me out of it. I had just got my PPC and asked what else he had open airplane related. He says how about ATC and that's how I ended up there.
 
I still luv ya tho. ;)

I wanted to cross train into X-ray and eventually ultrasound. Idiot at classification and training told me "no openings for Staff Sergeants" when their big green book of all things cross trainable said five slots were available. So instead I went with ATC. Turns out he was looking at the wrong fiscal year. :mad:
 
Norman said:
. . .
My last boss was a Designated Mechanic Examiner for many years. Based on what he has told me about the recent graduates of A&P schools, you don't want to become one. Those kids wouldn't know Shinola if they could open the can.
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Agreed. I am a product of an A&P school that used to be highly regarded but at graduation I was disgusted. There are many people who left there that I wouldn't let touch a lawnmower much less an aircraft.

Everyone who wanted to take the practical exam passed last I heard. There are three of us who are mechanics today and the two besides me were aircraft mechanics of some sort in the military before school.

I wish I had learned more in school but luckily I know how to ask questions and learn outside of school in order to be proficient. I also had a lot of mechanical experience going into the program.

If I was to do it again, I would do an apprenticeship.
 
That's medical. Industrial radiography hasn't changed. There's no way they'd cross train from jet engine tech to medical UT or X-ray.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
I still luv ya tho. ;)

I wanted to cross train into X-ray and eventually ultrasound.
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Wifey did civilian X-Ray, got burned out working with Radiologists and retired.

Young guys, don't ever agree to let your wife quit, they'll never go back! :D
 
I was glad to "let" my wife retire. She takes care of our home and I don't have to worry about anything, unless something "brakes". I can go to work for ten hours and come home and not have dog **** to clean up. ;) that alone is worth the reduced income. Besides, it maybe gave a 36k job to someone that needed it more.
 
GlennAB1 said:
That's medical. Industrial radiography hasn't changed. There's no way they'd cross train from jet engine tech to medical UT or X-ray.
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How can you say that when we have gone from simple e-xrays to full body scans, I just did a heart CT scan and watched my heart beat in real time. lots different than " hold sill" while the tech runs out of the room.
 
How can I say that? How about: because I've been certified level 2 in industrial radiography for nearly 30 years. Industrial radiography is still "hold still... airplane, pipeline, bridge, whatever".
 
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Joshuajayg said:
Agreed. I am a product of an A&P school that used to be highly regarded but at graduation I was disgusted. There are many people who left there that I wouldn't let touch a lawnmower much less an aircraft.

Everyone who wanted to take the practical exam passed last I heard. There are three of us who are mechanics today and the two besides me were aircraft mechanics of some sort in the military before school.

I wish I had learned more in school but luckily I know how to ask questions and learn outside of school in order to be proficient. I also had a lot of mechanical experience going into the program.

If I was to do it again, I would do an apprenticeship.
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Both the apprenticeship route and the part 147 school route have their strengths and drawbacks. Doing the apprenticeship route, your exposure to different aspects of aviation maintenance is likely to be more limited, where you probably get to see at least a little bit about a lot more areas by going to school. As a broad generalization, it seems like the guys I've worked with who came out of a school are more knowledgeable when it comes to regulations and the legal way to do things, while the apprentice guys are typically better at doing the actual work but are weak when it comes to paperwork and legal stuff.

I got my experience via apprenticeship. I can't say that I really learned much about airplanes or aviation maintenance working at the shop that helped me out. Thankfully I had a lot of mechanical and engineering experience before I started, which helped a lot. I ended up spending a lot of hours on my own researching things and figuring out how to fix things the legal way, because no guidance was really given to me. The apprenticeship method worked for me, because I had the motivation to learn the stuff, and figure out how to do it correctly, but it's not for everyone. The other apprentices that I worked with didn't put forth the effort, didn't learn anything, and didn't stick with it (although one of them did earn their mechanic certificate and briefly worked as a mechanic).
 
mondtster said:
Both the apprenticeship route and the part 147 school route have their strengths and drawbacks. ... Thankfully I had a lot of mechanical and engineering experience before I started, which helped a lot. I ended up spending a lot of hours on my own researching things and figuring out how to fix things the legal way, because no guidance was really given to me. The apprenticeship method worked for me, because I had the motivation to learn the stuff, and figure out how to do it correctly, but it's not for everyone. ...
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Interesting. We have same stories from both sides of the fence. I guess the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Looks like it takes self motivation regardless of the path you take.

Thanks for the insight.
 
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