90 day currency - test flight with mechanic?

stratobee

stratobee

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stratobee
My plane has had engine overhauls and has been in the shop for over 4 months now. The day is getting closer to test flights. Problem is I haven't flown for more than 2 months, and by the time it's all ready to go, it will be over 90 days. I'd like to take my mechanic up for the first flight, so that he can help me monitor any anomalies etc. Is there any proviso for a certified A&P to come along in this scenario, or is he regarded as just a passenger and I need to go do 3 takeoffs and landings before he can come along?
 
Since it's a test flight and you need him to facilitate testing, I'd suspect you could term him as required crew for the flight, or you can rent something and do three laps around the pattern and be covered for sure and still have him along on first flight.
 
Maybe if he also holds a pilot certificate, and happens to be current, he could be legal PIC.
 
Henning said:
Since it's a test flight and you need him to facilitate testing, I'd suspect you could term him as required crew for the flight, or you can rent something and do three laps around the pattern and be covered for sure and still have him along on first flight.
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I don't think that would pass the smell test if something happened. Something as simple as a tire gong flat on landing could spoil the day.

Unless the A&P is pilot rated and current, he's still a Pax.

Go rent or find a buddy with a plane to get your 3 crash and dash out of the way.
 
Henning said:
Since it's a test flight and you need him to facilitate testing, I'd suspect you could term him as required crew for the flight,
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I seriously doubt that will fly legally.

or you can rent something and do three laps around the pattern and be covered for sure and still have him along on first flight.
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That is the best course of action.
 
He is a pilot and current. Does that change anything?
 
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I would rent a plane to get current. Would not want to be test flying my plane and getting current at the same time. You have a lot to monitor on that first flight.
 
stratobee said:
He is a pilot and current. Does that change anything?
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Only if he is acting as PIC and you are the passenger (A current ATP with 40,000 hours flight time and currency in all of the 25 types of aircraft he flies is still just a passenger for currency purposes in a 172 if he is not acting as PIC or receiving or giving instruction)
 
Can't find a CFI to go? As in you sit left, CFI sit Right, and the A&P rides along?
 
BillTIZ said:
Unless the A&P is pilot rated and current, he's still a Pax.
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...pilot rated, current, and agreeing to take on the PIC role. Otherwise, the guy is just a "pilot rated passenger."

Never ASSUME that just because someone is a high time pilot or flight instructor that he is willing and perhaps even legal to be PIC.
 
Henning said:
Since it's a test flight and you need him to facilitate testing, I'd suspect you could term him as required crew for the flight,...
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Unless there is a flight mechanic position required by the aircraft's type certificate (in which case you can't fly that plane without him), your suspicion is incorrect. The only exceptions to the passenger-carrying rules are:

  • Required SIC per 61.55
  • Flight instructor giving training
  • DPE giving practical test
 
kkoran said:
And fly solo since the OP would be considered a passenger.
If he rode along.
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If it's a test flight required by 14 CFR 91.407, that would be correct. If they are only doing it to satisfy their own interests, then the owner can ride along as a passenger since the mechanic was said to be passenger-current. That said, an engine overhaul alone will not "have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight," so if that's all that was done, this would not be a 91.407-required test flight. OTOH, if this involved an engine upgrade such as the Miller conversion to a Twin Comanche, it would, and that would have to be a solo flight.
 
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Well Ron, which is it then? A 91.407 flight or not?
 
I'll have to do it by myself then, which is a little bit of a pain. Could have used his expertise and second pair of eyes monitoring. They recommend after engine changes to go for at least 1hr flight at high power settings, so 3 landings and takeoffs are not the priority at that point. I'll have to tag them on at the end, if anything. Mechanic is current and experienced, but not in twins and not on Aerostars.

Getting current in other aircraft - don't know if beating around the pattern in a 172 is very useful. And at this point it's been so long since I flew one I might even hurt myself...:eek::D It's been almost as long in the Duchess and Seneca, so they're not really an option either. I do still have access to my old Commander, but it's out of annual and I wonder if getting a ferry permit just to do some currency training is worth the hassle? Is there a FSDO permit I can get for just a test flight with an out of annual aircraft?
 
Did the engine overhaulers do any engine "run-in" or is that all going to be done "on wing"?

Dunno if I would want an aerostar ride with brand new engines and out of currency pilot. Just my $0.02 from a mechanic. If there's nothing but urban sprawl surrounding the airport, that might further influence me to stay grounded.

§ 91.407Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under § 43.7 of this chapter; and
(2) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.
(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.
(c) The aircraft does not have to be flown as required by paragraph (b) of this section if, prior to flight, ground tests, inspection, or both show conclusively that the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration has not appreciably changed the flight characteristics or substantially affected the flight operation of the aircraft.
 
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If you don't feel comfortable, the easiest solution I can think of is to hire a CFI w recent experience in Aerostars to fly with you.
 
They run them on the test bench before they ship them out. They will also be run on the wing quite a bit to fine tune stuff before I take it up. So I'm not terribly worried about failures on takeoff, but I won't be able to pay as much attention to the engine instruments as I'd like. Also, there might be other problems unrelated to the engines etc after an overhaul. There usually is.

Yeah, the CFI option is a good one. Except there are few with recent A* experience. I might take my DPE up with me - he's flown them in the past.
 
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stratobee said:
I'll have to do it by myself then, which is a little bit of a pain. Could have used his expertise and second pair of eyes monitoring. They recommend after engine changes to go for at least 1hr flight at high power settings, so 3 landings and takeoffs are not the priority at that point. I'll have to tag them on at the end, if anything. Mechanic is current and experienced, but not in twins and not on Aerostars.

Getting current in other aircraft - don't know if beating around the pattern in a 172 is very useful. And at this point it's been so long since I flew one I might even hurt myself...:eek::D It's been almost as long in the Duchess and Seneca, so they're not really an option either. I do still have access to my old Commander, but it's out of annual and I wonder if getting a ferry permit just to do some currency training is worth the hassle? Is there a FSDO permit I can get for just a test flight with an out of annual aircraft?
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Has nothing to do with being useful, it has to do with being legal, stupid I know, but it gets the job done so you're legal with the mechanic if you want him to come along. Take a CFI with you in the 172 if you want, should only take 1/2 an hour.
 
Can we get pics of shiny new engines????

(Living vicariously)
 
Dave Theisen said:
Three t/o & l's in a 172 doesn't get him current for his Aerostar.
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I thought that at first as well, but then I reviewed the reg.

It's aircraft category and class. The category is "normal" or "utility." The class is "airplane."

Both a 172 and an Aerostar are the same at that level.

Now, for airmen, a different certificate is required for the two aircraft.

See 14 CFR 61.57(b)(ii).
 
stratobee said:
I'll have to do it by myself then, which is a little bit of a pain. Could have used his expertise and second pair of eyes monitoring. They recommend after engine changes to go for at least 1hr flight at high power settings, so 3 landings and takeoffs are not the priority at that point. I'll have to tag them on at the end, if anything. Mechanic is current and experienced, but not in twins and not on Aerostars.
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Since that makes it sound like it was only a replacement of the existing engines with overhauled engines, then a 91.407 flight is not required and your mechanic pal can only come along if you're ME-passenger-current.

Getting current in other aircraft - don't know if beating around the pattern in a 172 is very useful.
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Not from either a practical or legal standpoint, since the 61.57 landing currency rules are class-specific, not just category, and a 172 and an Aerostar are different classes (ASEL vs AMEL).

And at this point it's been so long since I flew one I might even hurt myself...:eek::D It's been almost as long in the Duchess and Seneca, so they're not really an option either. I do still have access to my old Commander, but it's out of annual and I wonder if getting a ferry permit just to do some currency training is worth the hassle? Is there a FSDO permit I can get for just a test flight with an out of annual aircraft?
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The only permit they'll give you for an out-of-annual aircraft is to ferry it to where an annual can be performed. Also, unless that's a Twin Commander (as opposed to a 112/114/115), landings in it won't count for passenger-carriage currency in your twin-engine Aerostar.
 
dell30rb said:
If you don't feel comfortable, the easiest solution I can think of is to hire a CFI w recent experience in Aerostars to fly with you.
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Since no 91.407 test flight is required for just an exchange of old for overhauled engines, that is certainly a legal option, and a smart one, too, I think, given your apparent feeling of lack of proficiency. You really wouldn't want an engine problem on your first takeoff in four months, and first flight after overhaul is prime time for that.
 
Henning said:
Has nothing to do with being useful, it has to do with being legal, stupid I know, but it gets the job done so you're legal with the mechanic if you want him to come along. Take a CFI with you in the 172 if you want, should only take 1/2 an hour.
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One more time -- you can't get 61.57 landing currency in a 172 to carry passengers in an Aerostar (even if you only start one engine :D).
 
MAKG1 said:
I thought that at first as well, but then I reviewed the reg.

It's aircraft category and class. The category is "normal" or "utility." The class is "airplane."

Both a 172 and an Aerostar are the same at that level.

Now, for airmen, a different certificate is required for the two aircraft.

See 14 CFR 61.57(b)(ii).
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You're reading the wrong rules -- aircraft certification vs airman certification, and this is an airman certification issue. Try 14 CFR 61.5 -- both are Airplanes, but one is Single Engine class and the other is Multiengine class.
 
If your mechanic is a current PP and otherwise able to be legal PIC, you, as a pax can be sole manipulator of controls and get current if your you wish.
Being PIC does not require you to be sole manipulator.
 
nosehair said:
If your mechanic is a current PP and otherwise able to be legal PIC, you, as a pax can be sole manipulator of controls and get current if your you wish.
Being PIC does not require you to be sole manipulator.
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Moot. As discussed above, the mechanic is not rated and current for passengers in a twin like the OP's Aerostar.
 
OK, another question - sorry to dredge up this old stiff again.

Getting ready for my second test flight since April's troubles. DPE I took along last time has checkrides booked there and I can't wait for his schedule to free up (long story). A friend is a CFI ME with lots and lots of Aerostar experience, but he is not current on his CFI. Can he come?
 
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stratobee said:
OK, another question - sorry to dredge up this old stiff again.

Getting ready for my second test flight since April's troubles. DPE I took along last time has checkrides booked there and I can't wait for his schedule to free up (long story). A friend is a CFI ME with lots and lots of Aerostar experience, but he is not current on his CFI. Can he come?
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I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but:

So long as the CFI is himself current in ME landings for passenger carrying, he can come. He won't be acting as a CFI, just as the PIC for the flight. Who logs the PIC time depends on who manipulates the controls, but in terms of acting, he's the PIC and you're his passenger. Of course, you can't log dual training, but you can log the landings and thereby become current.

If he's not current in ME landings, then no, neither of you is able to carry the other as a passenger.
 
mcmanigle said:
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but:

So long as the CFI is himself current in ME landings for passenger carrying, he can come. He won't be acting as a CFI, just as the PIC for the flight. Who logs the PIC time depends on who manipulates the controls, but in terms of acting, he's the PIC and you're his passenger. Of course, you can't log dual training, but you can log the landings and thereby become current.

If he's not current in ME landings, then no, neither of you is able to carry the other as a passenger.
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The question is, since this is a 'return to service' flight, the plane will not be airworthy to carry anyone but required flight crew when it's taking off.
 
stratobee said:
OK, another question - sorry to dredge up this old stiff again.

Getting ready for my second test flight since April's troubles. DPE I took along last time has checkrides booked there and I can't wait for his schedule to free up (long story). A friend is a CFI ME with lots and lots of Aerostar experience, but he is not current on his CFI. Can he come?
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Let's review the bidding here. IIRC, the aircraft is being returned to service after an engine overhaul (exchange, actually, but same model engine) so no appreciable change in its flight characteristics since before the work was done. Therefore, no 91.407(b) test flight is required, so there is no restriction on carriage of passengers.

Since your friend's CFI ticket is expired, it is as though that ticket did not exist. Given that, what matters if more than one person is in the airplane is that the PIC holds an ASEL rating and is current for passengers per 61.57(a) (assuming a day flight -- paragraph (b) for night,but I doubt you'd be doing this at night) and is otherwise PIC-legal (flight review, medical, etc). Further, as long as the plane has fully- functioning dual controls, it doesn't matter which control seat the PIC occupies.

So, does your pal have an ASEL rating on his pilot certificate? Is he current for passengers in ASEL? Does he have a current medical? Is he OK with being PIC? If so, you can fly together and it doesn't matter which seat you occupy or who actually flies the plane.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let's review the bidding here. IIRC, the aircraft is being returned to service after an engine overhaul (exchange, actually, but same model engine) so no appreciable change in its flight characteristics since before the work was done. Therefore, no 91.407(b) test flight is required, so there is no restriction on carriage of passengers.

Since your friend's CFI ticket is expired, it is as though that ticket did not exist. Given that, what matters if more than one person is in the airplane is that the PIC holds an ASEL rating and is current for passengers per 61.57(a) (assuming a day flight -- paragraph (b) for night,but I doubt you'd be doing this at night) and is otherwise PIC-legal (flight review, medical, etc). Further, as long as the plane has fully- functioning dual controls, it doesn't matter which control seat the PIC occupies.

So, does your pal have an ASEL rating on his pilot certificate? Is he current for passengers in ASEL? Does he have a current medical? Is he OK with being PIC? If so, you can fly together and it doesn't matter which seat you occupy or who actually flies the plane.
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It's an Aerostar, so that would need to be AMEL instead.
 
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