5 killed in Bloomington crash (Cessna 414)

I'm strictly a VFR guy, and I'm not trying to come to any conclusions on this accident:

I had a vacuum pump fail in night VMC. No big deal that particular time, but it did take a minute to figure out what was going on because it happened when I was turning to a different heading and I started chasing the DG until I figured something was wrong.

In IMC - I'm assuming you are about to have a bad day?
 
I'm strictly a VFR guy, and I'm not trying to come to any conclusions on this accident:

I had a vacuum pump fail in night VMC. No big deal that particular time, but it did take a minute to figure out what was going on because it happened when I was turning to a different heading and I started chasing the DG until I figured something was wrong.

In IMC - I'm assuming you are about to have a bad day?

That is why you do a scan, and have redundant systems.
 
I know nothing about 414's but with more than three people you can't have full fuel?
 
I'm strictly a VFR guy, and I'm not trying to come to any conclusions on this accident:

I had a vacuum pump fail in night VMC. No big deal that particular time, but it did take a minute to figure out what was going on because it happened when I was turning to a different heading and I started chasing the DG until I figured something was wrong.

In IMC - I'm assuming you are about to have a bad day?

Not a bad day, but an annoying one. 38 of my 40 hrs IR training had a sticky note over the AI.
 
I know nothing about 414's but with more than three people you can't have full fuel?

Not if you want any level of single engine performance assurance. The 414 is 310hp a side with a Wide Oval fuselage. It is a notoriously poor performer on a single engine, the worst of all the Twin Cessnas; and he was heavy in the cabin. I would have made that flight with minimum fuel as well. It could be that he had plenty of fuel and just lost one engine and couldn't manage the weight. That's why I would buy the 421 instead. Horsepower is your best friend.
 
My sad guess is that the left engine ran out of fuel before the right. They were flying a 414 with more than 3 people, so they were fuel limited. I will bet a couple of those guys at least we're of 'healthy country boy' stature as well; he would likely have been leaving as much fuel behind as possible.

If that's true, then someone really ****ed up. It's not a long flight at all. 129 nm. That's about an hour in my slow single. For them in that plane, there reserve requirement alone would have been enough for the entire trip.
 
Not a bad day, but an annoying one. 38 of my 40 hrs IR training had a sticky note over the AI.

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How old was the guy? It could be as simple as he had a heart attack or stroke and bye-bye.
Yep. If he was eating a Western diet, he had heart disease--it's ubiquitous. The most vulnerable to sudden incapacitation are those with 30-50% blockages, not the 70+% the FAA grounds. So, anybody with an FAA medical is a ticking time-bomb as long as they're unaware, but the FAA will gladly certify them. If you become aware, though, and report it on your medical--you'll be grounded even though your "wake up call" prompted you to drastically change your lifestyle to eliminate the risk.

dtuuri
 
If that's true, then someone really ****ed up. It's not a long flight at all. 129 nm. That's about an hour in my slow single. For them in that plane, there reserve requirement alone would have been enough for the entire trip.

Possibly, things also happen that it loses or uses fuel at unexpected and unusual rates. As I said, he could have had plenty of fuel and still not been able to keep it flying on one. We don't know enough to say anything at this point, but I strongly suspect that both engines were not running on impact. The lack of post crash fire is why I suspect a fuel depletion issue, especially since he sank, then climbed, then sank to a terminal end. It matches with 'lost engine on empty tank, sank, switched to cross feed, power comes back, climb, lose both and glide to the finish.
 
I'm strictly a VFR guy, and I'm not trying to come to any conclusions on this accident:

I had a vacuum pump fail in night VMC. No big deal that particular time, but it did take a minute to figure out what was going on because it happened when I was turning to a different heading and I started chasing the DG until I figured something was wrong.

In IMC - I'm assuming you are about to have a bad day?
Properly trained and proficient you'll be just fine. I don't find it too difficult to detect a failed gyro. I've seen an Aspen Evolution do some funny **** though that was much more mentally draining to sort out then a gyro failure.

I was looking at my logbook last night and was rather surprised to see that 10% of my total time has been in actual instrument conditions. Much higher than I expected, likely the result of owners calling me up wanting to fly in the clouds whenever the weather supports it.
 
My sad guess is that the left engine ran out of fuel before the right. They were flying a 414 with more than 3 people, so they were fuel limited. I will bet a couple of those guys at least we're of 'healthy country boy' stature as well; he would likely have been leaving as much fuel behind as possible.

Good point, after I read about this accident, I did some research on the 414 and was surprised by how poor the load capacity was for a twin that is suppose to seat up to 8. Here is an excerpt from an article on the 414:

"Although the 414s have a huge cabin-class interior, the stock airplane has never been a tremendous load hauler. A typically equipped 414A has a full-fuel payload of about 500 to 700 pounds, depending on equipment. Although you could fly for about 1,100 miles, you would be able to bring only two friends and a few bags. In a well- equipped airplane weighing in at 5,100 pounds, you could fill the cabin with six people and a little baggage and fly for about 2 hours with IFR reserves."

Full article here: http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Aircraft-Fact-Sheets/Cessna-414
 
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Properly trained and proficient you'll be just fine. I don't find it too difficult to detect a failed gyro. I've seen an Aspen Evolution do some funny **** though that was much more mentally draining to sort out then a gyro failure.

.

Care to elaborate? I'm curious because to me the point of PFDs is to solve the clusterfudge-of-information problem inherent to six-pack/partial panel display format. If a PFD leads you to a loss of instrument cross-check that's more mentally challenging than partial panel setups, then holy false economy batman....
 
Properly trained and proficient you'll be just fine. I don't find it too difficult to detect a failed gyro. I've seen an Aspen Evolution do some funny **** though that was much more mentally draining to sort out then a gyro failure.

I was looking at my logbook last night and was rather surprised to see that 10% of my total time has been in actual instrument conditions. Much higher than I expected, likely the result of owners calling me up wanting to fly in the clouds whenever the weather supports it.

I'm in the same ballpark. We learn how to fly in the clouds and then do our best to stay out of them.

Bob Gardner
 
Care to elaborate? I'm curious because to me the point of PFDs is to solve the clusterfudge-of-information problem inherent to six-pack/partial panel display format. If a PFD leads you to a loss of instrument cross-check that's more mentally challenging than partial panel setups, then holy false economy batman....

Departure into IMC, at about 300 AGL, right after I went into the soup the attitude indicator and HSI on the Aspen indicated I was rolling into a big left turn. At least 45 degrees of bank. I started banking right in an effort to stop the turn. At the same time this event took place ATC handed me off to departure, my eyes left the instruments to reach over to switch the radio, then I looked back and saw my left hand turn wasn't getting better. At the same time I was reaching over to the radio I was trying to mentally figure out in my head why the hell the heading on the HSI was what it was because it was significantly different then the runway heading and I had only been flying for a "little while". My eyes started scanning all of the other instruments and my brain determined the Aspen was full of **** and I was actually in a right hand turn that I entered when I tried to stop the left.

All in all it was only a couple of "seconds" of time, but it wasn't a particularly fun couple of seconds. Multiple indications on the Aspen said the left hand turn was happening and they were a complete lie.

Even more disappointing then the above was the fact that the Aspen did not indicate any failure or warning messages until at least 15 minutes later during which it was displaying incorrect attitude and heading information the entire time.

Throughout this couple hour flight, the Aspen would start working again, and all would be well. Suddenly it'd do the same damn problem again. The HSI would stop once it turned 90 degrees and i recall the attitude being jacked no matter what. A good 15 minutes later and it'd finally display a warning/failed message. Hour after that it would "fix" itself and warning messages would go away.

It was fixed after that and has been trouble free since. One thing I know for sure though, there is no way in hell I would depart into IMC with nothing but Aspens for attitude, even if I had two of them.

Why do I say it's "more" mentally draining? Probably because it's showing you so much information on one display you're parsing. Problem is all of that information can become jacked. At least with a six pack, typically, you'll only lose one or two things and the others will keep telling the right story.

There's just a lot more **** to think about and start comparing. You also tend to think you'll get a warning if it has a failure but clearly that logic doesn't work perfectly.

Your brain has to parse all of the information on the Aspen, the airspeed, attitude, altitude, HSI, etc. Then you have to compare that to all of the steam instruments you have left which likely aren't in the most visible or user friendly locations then parse all of them. Figure out which ones are correct, which isn't, if part of the Aspen is incorrect, or if it all is...Etc..Etc.

Is my attitude actually what I think it is?
Is the entire Aspen displaying bad information or just part of it?
Maybe the Aspen is completely right and I just lost vacuum so my steam DG and AI are what is actually broken.
Maybe the Aspen is half broke and my steam AI is also broke but my steam DG isn't.
Do the steam gauges actually work right in this damn thing? I know they worked during the taxi but I haven't flown this airplane in six months. Maybe they've been broke for months and nobody noticed.

Lots to think about.

There's a lot of combinations of things providing you information and when one isn't telling you the right thing there's a lot more to start comparing.
In this case, I went to what I know the best, the steam gauges, and parsed all of them to determine if they were correct or failed then made my correction from them and said screw the Aspen.

Failures are one thing when you're expecting them to happen because there is a CFII in the right seat that just covered them up or turned something off. They're a whole different set of trouble when you're not expecting them, you're doing a couple tasks, the warning messages aren't working, and you're just making the mental transition into IMC from VMC.

I also fly probably 10 different airplanes a month, always rotating, and they all have different systems and failure modes. I'd certainly be at an advantage if I flew the same airframe all the time. But the reality of what I do, isn't that, and my proficiency isn't incredibly high in any one airframe even though I've logged 40 hours in the last ten days.

One reason I'm really loving Foreflight with SV and my Stratus 2 is it's the one consistent thing that I have no matter what I fly and so far has yet to let me down to any degree. I would put a lot of "trust" into what it's telling me if I have a panel full of conflicting information in front of me.
 
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Care to elaborate? I'm curious because to me the point of PFDs is to solve the clusterfudge-of-information problem inherent to six-pack/partial panel display format. If a PFD leads you to a loss of instrument cross-check that's more mentally challenging than partial panel setups, then holy false economy batman....

Don't know what Jesse saw but Aspens will go bonkers if the compass is not calibrated correctly. Upgrading the system such as adding synthetic vision can result in the need to re-calibrate. There are also some sensor sensitivity settings which might need to be adjusted to prevent the Aspen from "thinking" a sensor has failed. And of course the ADHARS can fail and Aspen had some early troubles with rumors of many failures. Thinking about some of Jesse's previous posts I think he has seen an ADHARS failure.
 
I'm in the same ballpark. We learn how to fly in the clouds and then do our best to stay out of them.

Bob Gardner

That's my take on it, be prepared, then avoid. Especially where I mostly fly, inside those clouds live things I don't want to tangle with. I saw what the NOAA research T-28 looked like when it landed from the Supercell penetration research flight.:hairraise: They took it away on a truck. A GA plane would not have come home.

Most all my time in actual was from California coastal IMC, and it doesn't get more benign than that.
 
Yep. If he was eating a Western diet, he had heart disease--it's ubiquitous. The most vulnerable to sudden incapacitation are those with 30-50% blockages, not the 70+% the FAA grounds. So, anybody with an FAA medical is a ticking time-bomb as long as they're unaware, but the FAA will gladly certify them. If you become aware, though, and report it on your medical--you'll be grounded even though your "wake up call" prompted you to drastically change your lifestyle to eliminate the risk.

dtuuri

:lol:

Oh yeah, fat American stereotype, frankly many other cultures eat far worse than we do.

Outside of some of the Asian cultures
 
Yep. If he was eating a Western diet, he had heart disease--it's ubiquitous. The most vulnerable to sudden incapacitation are those with 30-50% blockages, not the 70+% the FAA grounds. So, anybody with an FAA medical is a ticking time-bomb as long as they're unaware, but the FAA will gladly certify them. If you become aware, though, and report it on your medical--you'll be grounded even though your "wake up call" prompted you to drastically change your lifestyle to eliminate the risk.

dtuuri

My risk of dying is 100%. My cost to enjoyment of life by changing my eating habits? Incalculably high, I've tried it before, I felt like crap and I didn't enjoy eating... Yay. I may not eat a bacon wrapped raspberry jelly donut every day, but if I see one in a store window, I will eat one that day. My body craves meat, bread, sugar, caffeine, nicotine, and a few other things that I feed it. It's given me a good run for nearly 50 years now and never let me down, probably because I also drink copious amounts of OJ and Grapefruit juice as well as eat a reasonable amount of fruit to get my sugar along with my coffee sugar.

I have lived my life in such a fashion that I look forward to seeing what's around the corner, so my fear of death is absolutely zero. My goal in life is to have my death certificate read, "Death by Misadventure." If my last spoken words are "Watch this, it should be good." you will know I died a happy and fulfilled man.
 
If you read more closely, you will note that I am suggesting avenues of investigation into possible causes, without stating that I think one more likely than the other. I also give my basis for thinking why this is a theory that might be plausible enough to merit consideration. The NTSB team does the same sort of brain storming to guide their investigation, at least when the team works well together. None of it assigned blame to the pilot, as have some of the bald speculation which has stated in this thread that it must be his fault based on false statistics or some other idiotic statement.

And as noted, I was answering a question.

I read it very close. My objection isn't to your offering up an opinion on the cause, my objection is your castigating others for doing the same. This is what sets up a 'I am more qualified than you so STFU' situation. No doubt you are more qualified than me, so I'm very lucky there are no exams to take on this board before joining up and posting cuz I'd sure fail. While you I presume would be at the head of the class. Congrats.
 
:lol:

Oh yeah, fat American stereotype, frankly many other cultures eat far worse than we do.

Outside of some of the Asian cultures

It's pretty regional. You'll have a really hard time finding obese people walking around Manhattan compared to finding them around a small town in Mississippi.
 
My body craves meat, bread, sugar, caffeine, nicotine, and a few other things that I feed it. It's given me a good run for nearly 50 years now and never let me down, probably because I also drink copious amounts of OJ and Grapefruit juice as well as eat a reasonable amount of fruit to get my sugar along with my coffee sugar.
Well, chances are you won't make it as long as I did before I finally saw the light. Lucky for me I'm still 100% functional. You might not die as the result of your first symptom, you might have a stroke instead, blasted luck. How's spending around 20 years unable to move one side of your body appeal to you? Or unable to talk? Gonna do yourself in then? The proof is there. The choice is yours.

dtuuri
 
You'll have a really hard time finding obese people walking around Manhattan...

That's because all of their money goes to paying taxes and the rent, not much left for chow...plus Emperor Bloomy outlawed Big Gulps for the proletariat.
 
Well, chances are you won't make it as long as I did before I finally saw the light. Lucky for me I'm still 100% functional. You might not die as the result of your first symptom, you might have a stroke instead, blasted luck. How's spending around 20 years unable to move one side of your body appeal to you? Or unable to talk? Gonna do yourself in then? The proof is there. The choice is yours.

dtuuri

I think at that level of incapacitation, "Death by Misadventure" would be soon at hand as I master post stroke aerobatics in an ultralight. I welcome death any time it wants me.
 
That's because all of their money goes to paying taxes and the rent, not much left for chow...plus Emperor Bloomy outlawed Big Gulps for the proletariat.

Why do you have to turn EVERYTHING political. Turning everything political doesn't make you an intellectual...it makes you an azz.
 
That's because all of their money goes to paying taxes and the rent, not much left for chow...plus Emperor Bloomy outlawed Big Gulps for the proletariat.

No, it's because people actually give a **** about what the look like, and there is so much quality food available at a reasonable price, you are never even tempted by nasty, greasy, ammonia washed slime, fast food. I always eat well in Manhattan on not much more than a fast food budget. If you plan lunch as your big meal of the day, you can get a fantastic lunch in Hells Kitchen between $6-$10, it's like restaurant Happy Hour. Then for dinner, you do the bar happy hours, some with most excellent food, for the price of a beer (if you claim driver status they'll even give you free Coke). I eat well in Manhattan on $25 a day, and that includes bodega snacks and hot dog stands.

BTW, I don't buy Big Gulps anyway, when they outlaw 1/2 gallons of OJ, I'll be annoyed.
 
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I read it very close. My objection isn't to your offering up an opinion on the cause, my objection is your castigating others for doing the same. This is what sets up a 'I am more qualified than you so STFU' situation. No doubt you are more qualified than me, so I'm very lucky there are no exams to take on this board before joining up and posting cuz I'd sure fail. While you I presume would be at the head of the class. Congrats.

You didn't read closely enough. I discussed a possibility. I offered no opinion about what I thought caused the accident or who was to blame. I don't have an opinion. There are possibilities, but no conclusions. Those are the same types of conversations that happen around the table with the investigating teams as the meet to try to sort out what steps the investigation should take.
 
Why do you have to turn EVERYTHING political. Turning everything political doesn't make you an intellectual...it makes you an azz.

What exactly did I post that isn't a fact?
 
No, it's because people actually give a **** about what the look like, and there is so much quality food available at a reasonable price, you are never even tempted by nasty, greasy, ammonia washed slime, fast food. I always eat well in Manhattan on not much more than a fast food budget. If you plan lunch as your big meal of the day, you can get a fantastic lunch in Hells Kitchen between $6-$10, it's like restaurant Happy Hour. Then for dinner, you do the bar happy hours, some with most excellent food, for the price of a beer (if you claim driver status they'll even give you free Coke). I eat well in Manhattan on $25 a day, and that includes bodega snacks and hot dog stands.

BTW, I don't buy Big Gulps anyway, when they outlaw 1/2 gallons of OJ, I'll be annoyed.
There's probably just as much sugar in a 1/2 gal of OJ as in a 64oz soda.

You could eat in a different establishment in NYC every day for 100 years without repeats.
 
What exactly did I post that isn't a fact?

Whether it's a fact or not doesn't make it more or less political. Nor does it make you less of a dick for trying to turn every thread political. Take your crap to the spin zone.
 
Whether it's a fact or not doesn't make it more or less political. Nor does it make you less of a dick for trying to turn every thread political. Take your crap to the spin zone.

What's your problem, Fido, related to Bloomberg or something?
 
What happened to this thread? I jumped to the last page to look for any new information on the tragic accident in Illinois, so maybe I could learn something and increase my odds of survival.

But I am reading about health issues and western cultural beliefs? :dunno:
 
By post 50 most threads are toast. :)

Or should I say, most threads are frayed beyond recognition.
 
By post 50 there's usually been two drive-by's, a beheading, and a viagra commercial.
 
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