4 seat kits. What's out there?

In your opinion, what's the minimum time one could build an RV10 if they worked pretty much full time or close?

So many variables in terms of scope; quick build or not, panel bought or built, builder skill and experience, paint, etc. I don’t have the experience to say.

When I was closely following the many builder pages years ago I recall more than one build was completed in a year. Some were repeat offenders, others not. Many more have been built since then so I’m sure many more 1 year or less builds have been completed. Seems reasonable to me.

I started my build with a builder assist group that specialized in RVs. They complete the tail feathers in a weeks work of hands on training for the smaller RVs. We didn’t quite get that far with the ‘10 that week but 1-2 more days would have done it, the rest of tail kit would be done in less than a week. No short cuts were taken (all was epoxy primed). I came out with everything I needed to complete the aluminum work. My main instructor was 19 years old and had a dozen or more tail kits behind him but I did most of the work.

Re skills and experience: If every type of work requires a learning curve climb, that will take longer than someone with minimal familiarity/skills with riveted aluminum, composite work, and basic wiring. Someone with any other RV building experience will be significantly faster than someone with no aircraft building skills.

Re scope of build: I did quick build because I could afford it and there is little new to learn after the tail. The wing is just repetitive and seems easy, I regret not slow building the fuselage because I missed some fun (but the composite work on the fuselage makes up for the missed ‘fun’ (sarcasm here). But I did everything else; custom electrical system, panel build, and paint. All involved a very pleasant learning curve which is one of the reasons I wanted to the project. I was originally planning to buy a pro built panel and farm out the paint but I guess I enjoyed the challenges.

I was anxious about the engine install and setup but that was perhaps the easiest task of all, perhaps because I just did exactly what Vans outlined with a stock engine That is a key point that gets more important as time goes on. There is an seemingly infinite number of aftermarket products and options available to the builder. Vans is a minimalist of the highest order and builds to a VFR cruiser standard, e.g. building a pitot tube per Vans takes about 30 minutes to bend a piece of tubing and mount it. Installing a heated pitot probably took me 10 hours.

A fully tricked out, quality built ‘10 is arguably nicer than anything you can buy or at least will be your dream airplane. A stock Vans version (see their demonstrator) is exactly the plane everyone raves about. It’s a high performance VFR cruiser that will do everything Vans claims and probably out perform most of the dream planes despite 3 bladed props, customer induction systems, AC, and state of the art panel simpler because it will be lighter. You have A lot of choices and everyone of them will cost time.

I was a very part time Inexperienced. builder with a good sized shop in my back yard. A more full time approach would be fun and rewarding as well. How long depends on your personal skills, energy and the choices you do or don’t make.


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The common definition of a knot is one nautical mile per hour. Knots per hour is redundant, no?

@RussR was being sarcastic.

Sorry, yes, I was teasing. Technically, knots/hr isn't "redundant" exactly , it's a valid unit (if not a common one), just not measuring speed. Knots/hr would be nm/hr/hr, or nm/hr^2, which would be a measure of acceleration, like 1 g = 32.2 ft/sec^2. I just took it the next step further and figured out how much acceleration 1 knot/hr would actually be...

So, yes, math joke.
 
How nice does the fit and finish need to be? I think you'll spend 1500-2500 hours on a quickbuild kit, depending on skill and your level of OCD. Any modifications you make will take a ridiculous amount of time. So, if speed of build is important, keep it as close to stock as possible.

So if you divide down the middle for 200 hours, that could be done in a year, but that would literally be doing it as a full-time job.
 
So many variables in terms of scope; quick build or not, panel bought or built, builder skill and experience, paint, etc. I don’t have the experience to say.

When I was closely following the many builder pages years ago I recall more than one build was completed in a year. Some were repeat offenders, others not. Many more have been built since then so I’m sure many more 1 year or less builds have been completed. Seems reasonable to me.

I started my build with a builder assist group that specialized in RVs. They complete the tail feathers in a weeks work of hands on training for the smaller RVs. We didn’t quite get that far with the ‘10 that week but 1-2 more days would have done it, the rest of tail kit would be done in less than a week. No short cuts were taken (all was epoxy primed). I came out with everything I needed to complete the aluminum work. My main instructor was 19 years old and had a dozen or more tail kits behind him but I did most of the work.

Re skills and experience: If every type of work requires a learning curve climb, that will take longer than someone with minimal familiarity/skills with riveted aluminum, composite work, and basic wiring. Someone with any other RV building experience will be significantly faster than someone with no aircraft building skills.

Re scope of build: I did quick build because I could afford it and there is little new to learn after the tail. The wing is just repetitive and seems easy, I regret not slow building the fuselage because I missed some fun (but the composite work on the fuselage makes up for the missed ‘fun’ (sarcasm here). But I did everything else; custom electrical system, panel build, and paint. All involved a very pleasant learning curve which is one of the reasons I wanted to the project. I was originally planning to buy a pro built panel and farm out the paint but I guess I enjoyed the challenges.

I was anxious about the engine install and setup but that was perhaps the easiest task of all, perhaps because I just did exactly what Vans outlined with a stock engine That is a key point that gets more important as time goes on. There is an seemingly infinite number of aftermarket products and options available to the builder. Vans is a minimalist of the highest order and builds to a VFR cruiser standard, e.g. building a pitot tube per Vans takes about 30 minutes to bend a piece of tubing and mount it. Installing a heated pitot probably took me 10 hours.

A fully tricked out, quality built ‘10 is arguably nicer than anything you can buy or at least will be your dream airplane. A stock Vans version (see their demonstrator) is exactly the plane everyone raves about. It’s a high performance VFR cruiser that will do everything Vans claims and probably out perform most of the dream planes despite 3 bladed props, customer induction systems, AC, and state of the art panel simpler because it will be lighter. You have A lot of choices and everyone of them will cost time.

I was a very part time Inexperienced. builder with a good sized shop in my back yard. A more full time approach would be fun and rewarding as well. How long depends on your personal skills, energy and the choices you do or don’t make.


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Thanks for the detailed reply.
 
Does it look those prices include the cost of the kit? That’s a full turn-key price?
 
I gotta say, that really tempts me.

Jesse Saint has been with RV10s since the early days. Excellent rep. He has some offshore resources to help keep the costs down and I’d guess they are somehow applied here.

I haven’t been keeping up with the quick build industry but it looks impressive.


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Does it look those prices include the cost of the kit? That’s a full turn-key price?
I assumed so, but I can't find that explicitly spelled out on the website. If you have to buy the kit in addition to the $269K for the Vision-10 completion level, the value proposition changes significantly. The RV10 quick build kit sells for $63,250.
 
I assumed so, but I can't find that explicitly spelled out on the website. If you have to buy the kit in addition to the $269K for the Vision-10 completion level, the value proposition changes significantly. The RV10 quick build kit sells for $63,250.

Jesse Saint occasionally posts in this forum. He's a good guy and has a good rep in the RV world. Give him a call if you're tempted.
 
I assumed so, but I can't find that explicitly spelled out on the website. If you have to buy the kit in addition to the $269K for the Vision-10 completion level, the value proposition changes significantly. The RV10 quick build kit sells for $63,250.

Glasair Sportsman Two Weeks To Taxi is $250k, so $269k for an RV-10 is right in line with that.
 
And the Sling Tsi is in the same $250k build assist price range.
 
I assumed so, but I can't find that explicitly spelled out on the website. If you have to buy the kit in addition to the $269K for the Vision-10 completion level, the value proposition changes significantly. The RV10 quick build kit sells for $63,250.

Good news. I wrote him an email and this was his answer:

"It includes the kit. That’s a turnkey package."
 
Where can I buy an engine for an RV10 for 35k?
In Canada. Find a good core and get it rebuild by known shop in Canada (in Quebec). With current USD to CAD rate it looks very doable and I know someone who was able to fit exactly in indicated amount (C4B5 if I am not mistaken)
On another note my calculation regarding the actual VANs RV10 kit costs where on lower side because I forgot to throw in firewall forward kit plus extra for upholstery (even minimal).
 
I’m curious as to whether you’ve balanced your injectors and run LOP? You can certainly add knots burning more fuel (LOP or ROP) but the way I run, I can plan 5 hours + a 45min reserve if I can run it at 9k or above for those long legs.

Even though it will feel good on those max legs trips,I doubt whether I’ll even put any fuel in the 15 gal tanks except for those exceptional legs. Four hours is about as far as I need/want to go and that’s real comfortable in the ‘10 relative to reserves.


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We just recently got the last outlier injector dialed in so we feel comfortable running LOP. I did LOP a bit on a solo trip back from Iowa this summer, but was fighting a headwind where I wouldn't be able to make it nonstop anyway, so I went back ROP to ease the pain a bit. IIRC, I was gaining about 3GPH and losing about 8-10KTAS. Is that similar to what you see? This is on an IO-540.
 
Just recently got a quote full loaded Sling TSI is $290K and at least 9-12 months with builders assist. If you read the Sling Builder pages everyone is delayed in getting their kits. To me its a great plane but at 300K and a year I can get a G2 Cirrus or Build a Mako Lancair with a NA engine for 350K - 400K
 
Yes, I'd definitely do a Mako over a TSI, if the TSI loaded out is nearly $300K. Thats essentially pricing themselves out of the competition. The high end for a loaded TSI *should* be significantly less than $250K for it to be competitive. Technically, the TSI (nor RV-10) is (are) not even in the same class as the Mako, speed wise.
 
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Yes, I definitely do a Mako if the TSI loaded out nearly $300K. Thats essentially pricing themselves out of the competition.
Yes I was blown away with the quote you could build one without IFR capability for 30K less but resale will be hurt and TBO on the 915IS is 1200 hrs at this point.
 
$290k? Did you price that out of California? If so, you should check out the other official build assist centers. I was quoted $240k full IFR. You are correct on lead time, same thing I’m hearing.
 
3-4 weeks completion is fantastic. Shortest I’ve ever heard for an experimental. What’s the catch? Other build assistance programs are 8 months+ for most experimentals.
 
I would assume in Jesses case efficiency and experience. My 10 QB took me around 1300 with a ton of mods. Keeping it per the plans I bet I could do another one much faster. Good tools also go along way, the pneumatic squeezer is the best.
 
3-4 weeks completion is fantastic. Shortest I’ve ever heard for an experimental. What’s the catch? Other build assistance programs are 8 months+ for most experimentals.

Okie had it right.

To add more detail, I'm guessing you get 2-3 helpers and would need to have your panel picked and assembled ahead of time. That, and I'm sure Jesse has some people who are wizards with at finishing fiberglass. Better technique can save you a lot of time there.
 
Okie had it right.

To add more detail, I'm guessing you get 2-3 helpers and would need to have your panel picked and assembled ahead of time. That, and I'm sure Jesse has some people who are wizards with at finishing fiberglass. Better technique can save you a lot of time there.

I agree 100%. A huge amount of time is spent just figuring out how things fit, and then you actually have to do it. For first time builders there’s also the learning curve of learning assembly processes like riveting or fiberglassing. This is why on duplicated assemblies the 2nd and subsequent ones always go faster. Having someone there to tell you what to do and how to do it is priceless. Hell, I’ve spent an hour before just looking for a tool that I just had in my hand and had laid down in the shop. All those extra minutes, whatever the cause, really add up.
 
Sounds great. I’m really excited about that timeframe. I’m 33 and my non pilot friends and family would feel much more comfortable in this new experimental with a parachute vs an older certified with outdated interior.

Vision 10(Saint's RV10)? I don't think that quote includes a parachute. Their site does not mention parachute for that airplane and the plane in the photo clearly doesn't have it installed. BRS is relatively new for RV10. No idea how much it is either.
 
Vision 10(Saint's RV10)? I don't think that quote includes a parachute. Their site does not mention parachute for that airplane and the plane in the photo clearly doesn't have it installed. BRS is relatively new for RV10. No idea how much it is either.

Noted. Still nice package even if I have to retrofit a chute later.
 
Noted. Still nice package even if I have to retrofit a chute later.

Although I have no knowledge one way or the other, I would guess that you can add BRS with them during the original construction. What that would cost additionally and how much extra time it'd take I don't know.
 
3-4 weeks completion is fantastic. Shortest I’ve ever heard for an experimental. What’s the catch? Other build assistance programs are 8 months+ for most experimentals.

Glasair's Two Weeks to Taxi is actually 2.5 weeks to airworthiness, but still goes together really fast. Start on Monday, taxi on the second Saturday, airworthiness inspection on Tuesday or Wednesday. It starts with a quick build kit with all the tools/jigs right there. I had five full time helpers and several floaters from the factory when I built my Sportsman.

Noted. Still nice package even if I have to retrofit a chute later.

BRS is a ~$30k option on the Sportsman. Probably in the same ballpark on the RV10.
 
I've got a White Lightning kit available. It's from the early 1990s and is not anywhere near as nice a kit as the more modern ones. However, after all the blood, sweat and tears that you would put into the build, you would have a 4 seat aircraft that TAS's at 210+ knots with a 210hp IO360 engine. If you are over 5'10" tall you would need to be careful about seat ergonomics, but fitting a tall person in could be done. This aircraft could be built for under $200k but would be very labour intensive.
 
In your opinion, what's the minimum time one could build an RV10 if they worked pretty much full time or close?
How nice does the fit and finish need to be? I think you'll spend 1500-2500 hours on a quickbuild kit, depending on skill and your level of OCD. Any modifications you make will take a ridiculous amount of time. So, if speed of build is important, keep it as close to stock as possible.
I built mine in 3 years 10 months working a full time job. that includes modifying the door latch system and other changes for personal preference that added time to the build. I did use quick build wings. I have over 1200 hrs on the plane since it first flew in 2007. I fly to Glendale AZ (west valley) from KUGN (Waukegan Il) regularly in 10hrs with 2 fuel stops. I can make it back in about 9 hrs due to winds usually. I do my own condition inspection and take my time during the winter months to thoroughly go over the aircraft.
 
Thanks Okie, I have visited here before but never joined until they shut down the forums at AOPA.
 
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