27R and 35 landings at PHL

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Bradley W, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    After hearing about this, I was very interested to hear more about this.
    Is there is the only airport in the country to share the same touchdown zone within
    only 3 seconds of separation? In some ways this seems safer then LAHSO. Have both aircraft ever both went around?
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Whatya hearing? o_O
     
  3. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I heard that this is used because 26 has a big slope.
     
  4. RussR

    RussR Line Up and Wait

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    You've heard what is used? I'm with @mscard88 , your post is very much lacking in detail.
     
  5. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Why does LGA have a similar landing setup? It would ease delays there? PHL usually only has takeoff delays but not landing, because there are 3 runways used for landing at the same time
     
  6. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    doesn't*
     
  7. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Because LGA only has 2 runways. You also have to compare the amountof daily operations. PHL is a lot quieter than LGA. What’s your question?
     
  8. FlySince9

    FlySince9 Pattern Altitude

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    :loco: IDKWTFYTA...
     
  9. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Are you talking about simultaneous approaches? If so, there’s many airports around the country that do that.
     
  10. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Not sure I understand the question but they aren't landing aircraft simultaneously on 27R and 35. Not sure where the 3 seconds comes from either but tower uses intersecting runway sep and approach will use radar sep. Both of those don't use seconds for separation.
     
  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yea that’s what I was thinking. A 3 second gap between landings on runways with intersecting approaches didn’t sound right.
     
  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Tower could clear on for take off on one runway, while landing one on the other. As long as the departure is clear of the intersection by the time the arrival is over threshold, they're good. That's bare min non wake turb application also. I guess in an unintended way that could be 3 seconds sep??? :confused:
     
  13. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Best I can gather, he is talking about the 35/27R intersection at KPHL. 27R has 1700' of runway before the intersection, 35 has only 1100'. That means the touchdown zone of 35 is also part of 27R.

    Is there any place else which has crossing runways where the touchdown zone of one is part of the crossing runway?
     
  14. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yea. Must be something of that sort. Seems like an incursion would be ever so probable.
     
  15. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    How are simultaneous approaches on crossing runways any safer then the recently scaled back LAHSO?
     
  16. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    As far as I’m aware of, they don’t do simultaneous approaches on crossing runways. I can’t see how that would work anyway. I was just trying to poke around and figure out what was being asked in your original question. I think you’re a bit confused.
     
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  17. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I won't say ILS approaches, but yes, Philly lands on crossing runways. And, they do cut it close.
     
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  18. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    They won't be landing simultaneously. One aircraft has to at least cross the intersection by the time the other is over threshold. That's worse case and if no local procedure requires increased separation.

    LAHSO isn't an issue because they don't have the required distance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  19. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Interesting. I always thought simultaneous landings were only done on parallel runways. Learn something new all the time.
     
  20. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    You can do simultaneous landings (VFR traffic pattern) on intersecting runways when LAHSO operations are being conducted.

    Simultaneous IAPs can be conducted to intersecting runways as well but a bunch of stipulations are involved. A biggie is the IAP be labeled "converging" and weather must be 1000/3. Simultaneous visual and IAPs can be conducted to intersecting runways as well as long as radar or visual sep can be provided.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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  21. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    FLL used to have perfectly safe and effective crossing runway system. They no longer have crossing runways and built a new ,
    wasteful runway system up a big hill in the name of "tourism."
     
  22. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Good to know. Thanks V
     
  23. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    You're welcome!
     
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    There's lots. Out in your neighborhood there is 23 and 18L at KCLT. Not only does one runway cross the others Touchdown Zone, the TZ's overlap.
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    I take it you got to build the new tower. Shouldn't you be saying Thank You. Lol
     
  26. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    Nope. Not the tower. We were part of the team of companies that designed the south runway -- 90 million cubic feet of fill and all.
     
  27. Artimas

    Artimas Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've landed at PHL many times. I've been on 17/35 every time. Landing on 17 gives plenty of room to stop, and they fit you in between the landings on 9-27 in case of a go-around. Departing on 35, I've always done an intersection take off from taxiway Hotel to stay away from the airline traffic. Plenty of room, and it's one of the few times I've accepted intersection take offs. Requesting full length would really muck things up and I anticipate a full length request would be met with a reply something like "we can do that, expect a delay of 45 minutes.". It really is an easy "big airport" for small planes. Way easier than places like JFK and EWR.
     
  28. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    Here is an interesting factoid. PHL ops monitors river traffic on the Delaware River via computer and will need to shut down 17 for departures and 35 for landings if there is a ship coming up or going down the river that is over a certain height, until the ship passes.
     
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  29. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Why else would anyone go there?
     
  30. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Echoing others, its not really clear what's being asked or what 3-seconds you're talking about.. Have you witnessed 2 aircraft landing with only 3 seconds of separation on both runways? Or are you referring to the time between clearances to land? Or maybe you're calculating the time-to-runway intersection at a given speed?

    One thing to keep in mind with PHL is that runways 8/26 @ 5000' and 17/35 @ 6500' are both relatively short and are used primarily by GA aircraft and smaller, slower airline puddle jumpers. While 9/27 L & R are both longer at 9500' and 12000' and use by the big airliners.

    This means the traffic landing on these 2 runways have very different approach speeds and landing profiles which provides an easy, natural method of separation. If the basis of this question is from listening to radio chatter, its important to note that issuing a cleared to land statement doesn't mean it cant be revoked and there is quite a difference between clearing a 90kt private plane on a 5 mile final to land 3 seconds before/after clearing an airliner traveling at 180 kts on a 5 mile final to land. The airliner will land nearly a full minute ahead of the private plane and that's assuming they're cleared to land at the same 5-mile-final point in their approaches.

    9L/27R and 17/35 are the only 2 runways that intersect on the ground and neither is approved for LAHSO operations so if you're witnessing landings within 3 seconds there's clearly an issue. While 27L and 35 dont intersect on the ground, thier approach paths do so there is some increased risk and it is objectionable as you cant really control and be certain of a pilot's altitude on an approach in the same way you can on the ground...

    8/26 also doesn't cross 17/35 on the ground but the approach end of 08 and departures from 17 would be in conflict with mid-field go-arounds and departures from 17/35 but again GA is the predominant user of these 2 runways and it's unlikely they would be used concurrently, especially given they're oriented 90 degrees apart. I've only seen 17/35 used in low/no-wind conditions or otherwise favoring wind conditions and even then the airliners are left to fend for themselves with the crosswinds landing on 9/27.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  31. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    As @Kritchlow said, they do have simultaneous operations going on. I've landed on 35 regularly when the various 27s were in use. I don't know why they do it that way, but they do. Never felt that things were dangerously close. Generally the 35 landings/takeoffs are either GA or turboprop 121s, like Dash 8s.
     
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  32. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    DCA also lands on 19 and 15. It is very safe as low altitude steering /go arounds are common to practice in the sim. It's very easy to maintain 100 ft above ground and keep a steady speed in the air