250nm XC requirement for IFR

Bonchie

Bonchie

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Bonchie
I'm nearing the end and have to do this flight.

My question is, is the 250nm requirement "straight line" or simply total actual traveled miles?

I'd like to go VKX-SBY-RIC-VKX, which is 247 miles straight line between all three airports. But I know they'll vector me south to DAILY or WHINO most likely on departure adding several miles and on the way back, the airway from RIC goes to IRONs, then the GPS approach starts back to the northeast into VKX, adding more miles.

So I'm certain actual total distance traveled via airways or direct would be well over 250nm.

The reg:

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility
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To me, that seems to not indicate any straight line requirements the way the VFR long XC does.

But I need to be sure obviously.
 
Definitely not straight line.

You also don't have the requirement to go to three airports.

You need three approaches of different types. You also need one full stop landing more than 50 miles away for it to be a cross country.

I'm planning mine KRHV -> KSTS (ILS) -> KWLW (VOR) -> KRHV (RNAV)

We're also adding a SID (Charlie 4, KSTS) and a STAR (Point Reyes One, KRHV), though those are not required. And pie. Gotta get pie at KWLW.
 
Yeah, I know about the approaches.

I'll do a VOR at SBY, ILS at RIC, and GPS back into VKX. If they deny me an ILS/LOC at RIC (unlikely, but you never know), I'll stop by RMN on the way back and shoot their ILS.
 
Hi Anthony. To me that reads the distance must be straight line, so you need to add the extra 3 miles. Pick something a little farther.
 
Bonchie said:
Yeah, I know about the approaches.

I'll do a VOR at SBY, ILS at RIC, and GPS back into VKX. If they deny me an ILS/LOC at RIC (unlikely, but you never know), I'll stop by RMN on the way back and shoot their ILS.
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RIC shouldn't be a problem, but there's an ILS at FCI too.
 
Bonchie said:
My question is, is the 250nm requirement "straight line" or simply total actual traveled miles?

I'd like to go VKX-SBY-RIC-VKX, which is 247 miles straight line between all three airports.
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I'd say "straight line" means "from the original point of departure". That isn't required. I'd also say the "flight" distance is between airports and should total 250+ NM.

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
I'd say "straight line" means "from the original point of departure". That isn't required. I'd also say the "flight" distance is between airports and should total 250+ NM.

dtuuri
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I meant straight line between the three airports, totaled up, which I realize isn't the best way to put it, but you know what I mean.

It's a moot point because I ended up going VKX-SBY-26N-VKX this morning and that's well over 250nm round trip no matter how you draw it up.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation though. It seems much more ambiguous then that to me and seems to be more directly talking about the route distance, not point to point distance between airports.
 
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dtuuri said:
I'd say "straight line" means "from the original point of departure". That isn't required. I'd also say the "flight" distance is between airports and should total 250+ NM.

dtuuri
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Agreed, enter the airports into whatever software, or measure between them and total it up and you need 250+nm. You can't add miles flown on approaches, holds, and vectors.
 
Bonchie said:
I meant straight line between the three airports, totaled up, which I realize isn't the best way to put it, but you know what I mean.

It's a moot point because I ended up going VKX-SBY-26N-VKX this morning and that's well over 250nm round trip no matter how you draw it up.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation though. It seems much more ambiguous then that to me and seems to be more directly talking about the route distance, not point to point distance between airports.
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When ambiguity exists, the smart interpretation will be the conservative one. That's why most people do as you did and make sure there is plenty of excess to cover whatever.
 
Bonchie said:
I meant straight line between the three airports, totaled up, which I realize isn't the best way to put it, but you know what I mean.
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The term "straight-line" is used in 61.1 thus:
Cross-country time means—

...That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
​
It isn't used in connection with the 250 NM requirement you quoted from 61.65 and bringing up the term in that context confuses the issue. To be a "cross country", it only needs a straight-line distance of 50 NM.

Bonchie said:
It's a moot point because I ended up going VKX-SBY-26N-VKX this morning and that's well over 250nm round trip no matter how you draw it up.
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Good decision--avoids a big and expensive headache if the DPE agrees with me on test day.

Bonchie said:
I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation though. It seems much more ambiguous then that to me and seems to be more directly talking about the route distance, not point to point distance between airports.
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Well, if you don't use the airports you flew to, to establish the distance, how else would you propose proving you went the required distance? Say, for example, you get cleared direct? Anytime I have to parse regs I start with the intent, as best I can figure out the logic, and read the rule in that light. Others start with what they want to do and search for apparent loopholes that seem to allow it. They can be aggravating. :)

dtuuri
 
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You should also consider making this x country longer to fullfill the long Commercial x country. I don't know what you plan on doing but the long Comm. x country has to be 300nm with a 250 mile straight line leg. If you plan on getting the commercial license after you can knock it out now.
 
dtuuri said:
The term "straight-line" is used in 61.1 thus:
Cross-country time means—

...That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
​
It isn't used in connection with the 250 NM requirement you quoted from 61.65 and bringing up the term in that context confuses the issue. To be a "cross country", it only needs a straight-line distance of 50 NM.


Good decision--avoids a big and expensive headache if the DPE agrees with me on test day.


Well, if you don't use the airports you flew to, to establish the distance, how else would you propose proving you went the required distance? Say, for example, you get cleared direct? Anytime I have to parse regs I start with the intent, as best I can figure out the logic, and read the rule in that light. Others start with what they want to do and search for apparent loopholes that seem to allow it. They can be aggravating. :)

dtuuri
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GPS log?
 
dtuuri, I agree and disagree. I think the reg is very clear that the 250 nm requirement is actual flight path, NOT distance measured between airport center points. "Along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility" seems clear that any routing deviations are to be accounted for. How can you prove it? You can't. But then again, you can't prove you flew to the airports anyway, or really did any of the required training. The CFI's signature and it being in your logbook (with comments such as ">250nm along ATC directed routing") should be sufficient unless the DPE is going to claim that both the CFI and applicant are complicit in the attempted deception.

However, I also AGREE that if you can just make the flight >250nm as measured between the airports, you remove all question and doubt.

Note: I did perform a flight in exactly this manner with a student once. It was something like 249nm straight-line routing, so clearly even just vectoring for the approach took it over 250. So I included a comment similar to the above in his logbook remarks. No questions were asked by the DPE.
 
dtuuri said:
Was that available when they wrote the rule?

dtuuri
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Irrelevant, is it disqualified? That is how US law works. Not saying it's some issue worth pushing, I don't think it is because it's easy enough to make the actual requirements. I'm just saying that if asked for proof of distance, most people can readily produce a GPS log that gives accurate and unbiased data.
 
RussR said:
I did perform a flight in exactly this manner with a student once. It was something like 249nm straight-line routing, so clearly even just vectoring for the approach took it over 250.
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Can you produce the GPS log?

dtuuri
 
RussR said:
Nope. Of course, I can't produce GPS logs for any of the other flights I've claimed to have made in my or my students logbooks either.
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Then it's just another needless rule I guess. Anybody having to come up with an extra mile or two could, I suppose, simply flight plan with a waypoint called Lake Wobegon enroute to make up the difference:
"...if anyone asked why the town appeared on no maps, I explained that when the state map was drawn after the Civil War, teams of surveyors worked their way in from the four outer corners and, arriving at the center, found they had surveyed more of Minnesota than there was room for between Wisconsin and the Dakotas, and so the corners had to be overlapped in the middle, and Lake Wobegon wound up on the bottom flap."​
I can't believe the draft writers ever intended to leave measuring the mileage to the whim of applicants and their CFIs. It would only be a matter of time until some doofus tried to set a record for covering the the entire requirement, serpentine fashion, without even leaving the county.

dtuuri
 
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jordane93 said:
You should also consider making this x country longer to fullfill the long Commercial x country. I don't know what you plan on doing but the long Comm. x country has to be 300nm with a 250 mile straight line leg. If you plan on getting the commercial license after you can knock it out now.
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But the commercial 250 is completed while acting as PIC. You can't act as PIC on an IFR flight if you're not instrument rated.
 
I'd say "straight line" means "from the original point of departure". That isn't required. I'd also say the "flight" distance is between airports and should total 250+ NM.
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That was what I meant also. I didn't mean one leg had to be 250nm. I guess I didn't make myself clear, but since the cross country is done, I'm glad Anthony went conservatively.
 
NWADC9 said:
But the commercial 250 is completed while acting as PIC. You can't act as PIC on an IFR flight if you're not instrument rated.
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True but most people get the instrument rating first and then the commercial. There are exceptions, of course. But they are not the norm.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
True but most people get the instrument rating first and then the commercial. There are exceptions, of course. But they are not the norm.
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Exactly. During the Instrument 250 you're not PIC if you're filed IFR - your CFII is. The long Commercial XC is done while acting as PIC, therefore it wouldn't work.
 
Funny to think about. Day after my PP check ride I set off from Long Beach to Ft Wayne via St Louis to visit. Never thought about a solo XC, day or night, requirement after that.

I recommend a trip like that to anyone that's going to roll right into their IR.
 
jordane93 said:
You should also consider making this x country longer to fullfill the long Commercial x country. I don't know what you plan on doing but the long Comm. x country has to be 300nm with a 250 mile straight line leg. If you plan on getting the commercial license after you can knock it out now.
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I thought the commercial cross country had to be solo. The IFR cross country can't be.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I thought the commercial cross country had to be solo. The IFR cross country can't be.
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It can be with a CFI but as noted by another poster I completely forgot that the OP has to be PIC and he can't be if he does his instrument x country
 
jordane93 said:
It can be with a CFI but as noted by another poster I completely forgot that the OP has to be PIC and he can't be if he does his instrument x country
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Has to be PIC, or has to log PIC?
 
Just to clarify, you can log PIC time on the long IFR XC.

Now whether that qualifies for the commercial is another argument. But I don't want people to get confused and think they can't log PIC anytime they are IFR while getting their instrument rating.

From AOPA:

Rated, by FAA interpretation, means that the pilot has the appropriate category, class, and type (if required) privileges on his/her pilot certificate for the aircraft being operated. Period. Note that "rated" does not require the pilot to have an instrument rating, a current medical, recency of experience, flight review, or required endorsements (such as tailwheel or high performance). "Privileges" often refer to sport pilots because sport pilot certificates are not issued to pilots with category and class ratings. Rather, an endorsement for the category, class, and make and model of aircraft is placed in the sport pilot's logbook.

For example, if you are a non-instrument-rated, private pilot with airplane, single-engine land privileges, you would be considered appropriately "rated" to log PIC time anytime (in VFR or IFR conditions) you are sole manipulator of the controls of any (high-performance or tailwheel) single-engine airplane configured for takeoff and landing on land (unless, of course, the airplane required a specific type rating, which is required for jet aircraft and aircraft with gross weights over 12,500 pounds). Remember, although a pilot may log flight time as PIC under this provision, there must still be someone in the aircraft who is legally acting as PIC.
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The same holds true for instrument instruction. If you are receiving instrument instruction in an aircraft for which you are rated, the time you spend as sole manipulator of the controls is loggable as PIC, whether you are in actual or simulated instrument conditions.
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http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...Report-Logging-Pilot-in-Command-PIC-Time.aspx
 
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Bonchie said:
Just to clarify, you can log PIC time on the long IFR XC.

Now whether that qualifies for the commercial is another argument. But I don't want people to get confused and think they can't log PIC anytime they are IFR while getting their instrument rating.

From AOPA:





http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...Report-Logging-Pilot-in-Command-PIC-Time.aspx
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Yes you can definitely log PIC time but for the commercial x country you have to do it solo or ACTING and performing the duties of PIC.
 
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