210- gear won't retract- still make flight?

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Base610, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Seems to me that if the gear won't retract, then there is a problem with the gear system. Part of that system is what keeps the gear down (and locked). So if you don't know why it wont retract, seems to me that you can't be certain it will stay down and locked. Granted, there's no way a single engine Cessna main is going to collapse on the ground, but nose certainly can. And if you go flying, (depending on what caused the failure) it's possible for the mains to come unlocked in flight and then you have a problem.

    So to my mind, until you know something about the problem, I would be hesitant to go flying around.
     
  2. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    Neither are the wings, horizontal stabilizer, windshield, top cowling, etc, etc. Might be nice to have those as well as an operational landing gear system. :)
     
  3. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Actually, I deleted it because I found it to be incorrect. Landing gear actuation system is in the Boeing 757 MEL, Normal Complement, 1, minimum required for takeoff, 0. With a slew of remarks and exceptions for gear down operations. So, it does depend on aircraft. Physical parts allowed to be missing ( like 757 gear strut door) are found in the CDL. Wing parts allowed to be missing are even listed, with corresponding penalties.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  4. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Basically, if your aircraft has a discrepancy and you don't have any published relief, the aircraft is not in airworthy condition, by FAA definition.
     
  5. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    But you said this just prior.
    If you owned a 210 wouldn't you already know which could or couldn't? speciality when he had said there wasn't any one who could?
     
  6. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    I also indirectly know someone who flew a 210 the owners had purposely disabled the gear system for reasons I won’t go into here.

    FAA went after both the owner and the pilot.

    Last I heard numerous people were going to bat quietly for the pilot who badly needed the job and didn’t feel there was any safety reason not to fly a 210 with disabled and locked down gear.

    Never heard the outcome.
     
  7. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    "So there is only one mechanic in the area that can look at this and hopefully repair it? Bull! "

    The quote above is sarcasm!

    I do believe that there is someone experienced enough to fix the OP's 210. He might have to search and it might not fit into his immediate plans and it might cost a few bucks. But if he/she can afford a high performance aircraft he should be able and willing to keep it airworthy.
     
  8. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    Down gear is a happy gear!

    I agree with those above who opine that if there is no written relief (MEL/CDL/Performance Data/etc) it’s unairworthy. Ferry permit and one time flight to a suitable repair facility is it.

    And regarding knowing who can or cannot work on the airplane, if I owned a 210, I’d be familiar with those facilities, but I’d also know the answer to the OP question. Honestly, at what point during the complex and/or insurance check out was using an alternate means of retracting landing gear for normal ops discussed? Not likely, I’d guess.
     
  9. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    So if the cabin light was burned out and it isn't listed as optional by the manufacturer, then the aircraft is grounded. You can't even placard it INOP.

    That is what I just read from you. Given that this is very draconian and would basically result in every aircraft being down more than up, can you reference your opinion somewhere?

    I'm finding it very odd that with all the accumulated knowledge of this board, nobody is pointing to any FAA rule and saying "See, what I know is truth."

    I don't want to be pedantic, but I'm really not getting a solid answer as to why gear that is stuck in the down position is a danger. I'm just hearing a lot of folk lore and opinion.
     
  10. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Go read CFR 91.213 and then come back and tell us how you think you can comply with the OPs known defective equipment.
     
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  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How do you know he didn't already research the issue and knew prior to making the post? Seems to me you've assumed a lot.
     
  12. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

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    For the sake of argument If we disregard legality for a minute...

    Is it SAFE to fly long distances with the gear down and locked while staying below Vle?
     
  13. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Assuming the issue causing the gear to pop the breaker couldn’t result in an inadvertent retraction or other cascading failure, the only issue would be increased wear on the gear doors and higher fuel burn per mile. I wouldn’t want to do a long x-country that way.

    The big question you’d want to know is WHY is the CB popping?
     
  14. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    No. Nobody listens to me but I have been through this before with stuck flaps. Needed a ferry permit plus performance data from manufacturer.
    Without it you can not plan fuel burn and time enroute.
     
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  15. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Technicalities.
     
  16. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Kritchlow, could you share what aircraft this was on when you did it? I could see that being an issue on a jet or high performance turboprop. On a piston single, I would argue that the safety impact is minimal. Yes, climb performance will be worse, but you'll be able to figure out what it will be, and plan sufficient fuel for a ferry flight as the fuel burns are rather predictable. While your glide range will be reduced with the gear down vs. gear up in the event of an engine failure, I'd view that as an overall minimal impact to safety. The real concern as others have mentioned is WHY the gear won't retract, and also the question of how the system is designed to keep the gear down and locked. There are a lot of different system designs and I don't know much about the 210's.

    On a piston twin (and/or certain turboprop twins) the risk will go up significantly since an OEI event would then mean you're going down, as most of those planes won't maintain altitude OEI. Still, fuel burn can be fairly reasonably predicted, especially keeping legs short enough.

    When my instructor/A&P in PA bought his Navajo in the early 2000s, it was a project plane. He spent several days getting the thing running and ready for the ferry flight from Wisconsin back to Pennsylvania. As part of the plan for the ferry flight (yes, he had a ferry permit), he kept the gear down until he could get it home and do a more thorough inspection of the hydraulic system for the gear. There was an increased risk that went with it, but it made sense for that situation.

    Legally speaking, yes, get the ferry permit and take it straight to a shop, don't take it on a trip. Logically speaking, yes, get the ferry permit and take it straight to a shop, don't take it on a trip.
     
  17. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Sure... It was several years ago now so I can't remember the exact type, but I'm certain it was a Citation of some sort (typed in several).

    Of course we didn't go through the performance hardcore, we just made sure we could climb SE. We were only ferrying a short distance to the closest service center so fuel & time were not a huge issue. If it were a long ferry, time & fuel would be just as important.
    I realize the OLE performance part is useless on a SE airplane, but the earlier poster did say "fly long distances" in his question. That's my reasoning for needing performance charts (other than legality). Heck, the poster could even stretch his long distance scenario to include IFR flight. I think we all agree we should know our time & fuel burn.

    IFR flight.... brings up another safety question about stiff legging a FIKI aircraft. Is the gear designed to take on ice??
    I know the airplane we are talking about is probably not FIKI, but I'm just stretching the same logic to other aircraft.
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Unfortunately yes. When I flew the ATR72 the company was allowed by the MEL to dispatch us for a number of days before it had to be repaired. Loud as hell, even with DCs on.
     
  19. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I think we are in agreement. And yes, you make a good point about landing gear taking on ice. That said, anyone doing a ferry flight (with or without ferry permit) with landing gear that won't retract in icing conditions, this feller would have a thing or two to say:

    [​IMG]

    The "long distances" really just comes into how conservative you plan and how many stops you plan. Ultimately any ferry flight or repositioning flight requires new flight planning and extra conservatism added in, often beyond what the FAA will require, as you well know.

    At one point I was asked if I could ferry a 421B that had been sitting for 10 years. The flight ended up falling through due to schedule etc. and going to someone else, but the plane had to go a bit over 700 nm from its location to where it would get annualed. Plane had been gone through, ferry permit applied for. Day VFR only, as you'd expect. 421B has something in the 180 gallon range of fuel over 4 tank, I forget how much. But 50 gallons in each tip.

    I added in a personal limitation that if I flew it I would only fly using fuel in the tip tanks (which are mains) in case there was an issue with either the fuel selectors or the aux tanks, and stop within 90 minutes of the first takeoff to check for any issues on the aircraft (major leaks, etc.). They'd done a gear swing so I was comfortable retracting the gear, but for argument's sake let's say they hadn't and I said I would leave the gear down (but expect it would probably go up just fine).

    1) I know the plane can go 90 minutes on 100 gallons of fuel, even at full power full rich, which I wouldn't run at. So that would give me a chance to confirm fuel burn and speeds
    2) If that required an additional stop, so be it, I'd add that stop
    3) In the event of an engine failure, I'd pull the gear up and hope it worked, but also be lightweight to start with just me and 100 gallons of fuel maximum in the plane

    I've done enough ferry flights and I'd argue that with most of them, I've mitigated the risk so that it's no worse than my flight from CA back home on Saturday following the last dog run:

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N620CA/history/20171119/0045Z/KCRQ/KSLN

    If you look at that route on the sectional, there's a lot of tall mountains over that route, flying at night in a piston twin. No way would I do it in a piston single. I'll admit to thinking about Wayne's 340 that went down on almost that exact route a bit over 30 years ago, which is a sobering thought. Only differences are they were going from Palm Springs to OJC vs. San Diego to MKC, and a 340 vs. a 414.

    Maybe I'm getting too old for that.
     
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  20. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    91.213 (d)
    It is not a turbine engine.
    There is no MEL
    Gear operation is not a VFR requirement instrument or required by 91.205, although the gear position indicator is.
    No word on whether there is a KOE list, but an earlier poster said there wasn't in his older 210 POH. Newer 172s that I've flown have them. It would depend on the list existing and the operation requiring gear retraction. Assuming negative, pull the breakers and placard the switch inop. Ensure the 3 green lights still light? It's possible that when you pull the breakers on the gear, the lights will go out and then 91.205 would say you're grounded. But I don't know that, it depends which circuit they're on.

    Now a certificated pilot may make an airworthiness determination.

    91.213 actually tells how you you CAN fly. If you don't make it through the CAN, then you CANNOT. There are things to side track it that we don't know, but there is a path to fly under 91.213.
     
  21. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    So, now you agree with me on "published relief"?
     
  22. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think there are maybe 3 different, and not entirely related, discussion points going on here. My thoughts:

    1) Is it legal to fly in this scenario? Depends, but if we are talking GA, the FAA might not be super excited about your flight

    2) Would it be safe? Again, depends on the actual design of your landing gear system, but in all of the planes I've spent much time in, you could very safely "stiff leg" it if required........they don't just magically become unsafe. Then again, you burn maybe 150% more gas for a given range.

    3) Should you try to crank the gear up manually? No, that is potentially the worst thing you could do. Maybe it is just a bad breaker, but if it isn't, there is a reason it is popping. Kind of like how I thought it was just a bad oil pressure sensor one time, and I shut the motor down anyway per the procedure, and when I climbed down the ladder after landing, the ARFF dudes eyes were a mile wide and they just pointed at the oily mess that had covered the back of the jet/ramp. There was almost no oil left in the engine when they pulled it for the engineering investigation.
     
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  23. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    I have never disagreed that this was the route, but I also did not understand your use of the term "published relief" and basically had ignored it. What I kept asking is why everyone insisted that it was illegal/unsafe. I knew the requirements of 91.213 before and knew that it allowed you to fly and I guess I just figured that everyone knew it too.

    Still don't have an answer.

    Still also think the gear ought to get fixed.
     
  24. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Good advice 10 or 15 years ago, today not so much. I'd bet the list hasn't been updated for quite some time just like everything else over there....that is, if you can even get anyone to respond to your inquiry.
     
  25. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When you know the gear isn't working correctly, why would you trust it to be down and locked?
     
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  26. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Possibly because it IS down and locked. But I wouldn't trust it to be manually retracted, and then re-extended fully.

    I asked this before: Can you manually retract the gear on a 210? The POH for my Bo warns against it. The manual procedure is just for extending the gear.
     
  27. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    bflynn:
    To answer your question, the flight as the OP stated would be illegal.

    91.7(b) second sentence, puts the aircraft on the ground for the landing gear condition. It’s an unairworthy condition because the landing gear/electrical system no longer conforms to the type design requirements. Now someone needs to make it airworthy.

    The next step would be to repair the discrepancy or defer the repair. Since a repair would be outside the scope of preventative maintenance the pilot could not perform it. So we look to defer and as most have pointed out the next logical step would be to check 91.213(d).

    FYI: While not applicable to a 210 if there would have been a FAA Master MEL created for a 210 even though the owner did not use an MEL, 91.213(d) would not be applicable.

    91.213(d) is pretty clear: “… a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided--.”

    As it “appears” the landing gear meets the 91.213(d)(2) deferment requirements we move to (d)(3).

    Since we can’t remove the landing gear per (d)(3)(i) we drop to (d)(3)(ii) which states the inoperative equipment is to be deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” All good so far.

    But in this case, it’s the 2nd sentence of (ii) that applies: “If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter…” How does the pilot know IF there is/isn’t a maintenance requirement for this?

    Most retract gear I’ve worked with require the gear to be down, locked, and PINNED before further flight operation. And quite a few OEMs have guidance to perform this operation legally. Since I don’t recall any Cessna AFM guidance on this, the pilot would at a minimum be required to bring in a mechanic for review.

    But to take it one step further, say the pilot happens to have a 210 MM in the back seat and he cannot find any maintenance requirement concerning flying with the L/G down. So he doesn’t call a mechanic.

    That brings us to 91.213(d)(4) requiring the pilot to determine if the inoperative equipment is not a hazard to the aircraft. How do you prove it is or isn’t a hazard?

    Regardless, the flight is still illegal under 91.103 (and to an extent 91.151a) as the pilot can not complete the pre-flight requirement for aircraft performance as that would take a 210 AFM Performance Chart with Gear Down to comply with. Which then takes us to the Fed favorite 91.13(a).

    In general, as to disregard the legality of a problem just to discuss whether it can be done safely… Why? You cannot remain airworthy without both of them. So if more people would simply fly legal, they would then have a much better tendency to stay safe.
     
  28. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How do you know that?

    How do you know that it will stay that way?
     
  29. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I assume he landed it like that and that the gear stayed down, since he didn't mention any belly damage, so I assume it IS down and locked. But I did say "possibly" because I don't know that.

    That isn't an assumption that I would be willing to make.
     
  30. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I agree that the airplane is NOT airworthy. I can think of several reasons not to fly it both for safety, and legality.
    That said, knowing the the gear is locked is not one of them. If I can visually inspect the gear in preflight and actually see the mechanical downlocks engaged, well that's even better than the 3-green I get when I'm flying.
    I do understand not all airplanes have visual access to the down locks as some are internal style.
    As I said though, I am not in favor of flying the airplane.
     
  31. MauleSkinner

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    91.213(d) isn't a blanket authorization to fly with any component inop...a couple of people have mentioned violations for flying with landing gear retraction inop. I'm not familiar with those, but one that I am familiar with is a violation for flying with an inoperative flap mechanism...left the flaps at zero and flew. The FAA's position was that the TCDS said the flaps have other positions available, so it was unairworthy due to noncompliance with the type certificate.
     
  32. bflynn

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    So your argument is that if the TC specifies a range of movement then the A/C is not within the Type definition and therefore unfit to fly - that's fair, although I think a little picky for flaps since entire flights can be completed using procedures defined by the manufacturer. But the FAA isn't asking me.

    I wonder how many pilots have ever seen the TC for their A/C.

    For a 210, I do not see gear operation defined in the TC. Maybe I'm missing it. https://redskyventures.org/doc/cessna-misc/C210_FAATypeCertData.pdf
     
  33. bflynn

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    91.7 requires the PIC to make the determination. I do not see in the TC, in the regulation or in the POH how a pilot should determine that gear operation is required. The only reference I have is that someone's cousin's friend's uncle was violated by the FAA for doing it. See my previous post and please reference where in the TC gear is required.

    People keep taking shots at this and everyone keeps missing. I'm not advocating one way or another, I just want to know how _I_ am supposed to know that it isn't OK to fly it.
     
  34. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I have the solution.
    Go fly a 210 with gear broken in the down position. Then call the FAA and tell them what you did. After that you can fight it in a NTSB hearing. You will get your answer.... although you may not like it.
    Come back here and give us the deets.
     
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  35. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Well, I don't have a 210, let alone one with broken gear.

    Maybe you're suggesting I should ask the CC?
     
  36. MauleSkinner

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    Not my argument...it's the FAA's definition of "airworthy".

    As the stereotypical southern highway patrolman would say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." ;)
     
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  37. MauleSkinner

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    Read the airplane manual...The AFM or POH General section probably says something to the effect that, "The Cessna 210 is a retractable gear aircraft."

    If the gear doesn't retract, it isn't a 210, and therefore cannot be operated as one.
     
  38. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Not arguing with using the TC. This has been a good thread to learn from, but the answer to the OP's original question is still not in here.

    Judging from what I read here, the law isn't actually written down anywhere, so nobody can know it until after the violation, when the FAA decides what the law was.
     
  39. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Repeat argument. The POH also says the aircraft has an interior dome light, so I guess that if that light is burned out, the A/C is not a 210 and therefore cannot be operated as one.
     
  40. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I think you are just ignoring the writings.... or interpreting them to narrowly.
    There is tons of evidence to say no fly imo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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