210- gear won't retract- still make flight?

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Base610, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Base610

    Base610 Filing Flight Plan

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    Just got 210. 8.5 flying hours and 7 Landings later, and the small gear breaker pops. No shop can work on for weeks. Would you still make planned flight? Leave gear extended or manual retract and extend?

    Your thoughts appreciated.
     
  2. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Is this a SERIOUS question?

    You are seriously considering manually pumping the gear up and then back down.... on a 210???

    I guess it’s no wonder it’s so hard to get insurance on 210s these days.....




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  3. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Fly it someone close for MX, sure

    Fly it for a normal non MX destination flight, hellz no
     
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  4. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No way do you pump up the gear with the intent of manually pumping it down. If you need to fly it leave it down and locked. Will fly similar to a 182. What year/model of 210 ?
     
  5. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    BIG NO!
     
  6. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Cleared for Takeoff

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    If you couldn't pump it back down and had to land gear up, it would be interesting if the FAA found out you intentionally took off with it broken and pumped it up manually. Pretty sure you wouldn't be flying for awhile.
     
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  7. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    NOOOOOOO

    if it's got a question mark on it, leave it down and Iocked, else things might get expensive lol
     
  8. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Think that is what I said too.
     
  9. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you got the bucks to buy a high performance piston retractable, you should also have the bucks to fix it!
     
  10. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas En-Route

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    In the later models, at least, you can't pump the gear up. The pump is in the gear-down circuit. The POH and placards tell you not to do it.
     
  11. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here is a question for the OP. Do you think your aircraft is airworthy? Why or why not?
     
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  12. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    If the gear won't retract then for sure fly it gear down only. Even that has some increased risk. 'Pumping it up', even if it were possible, is crazy talk.
     
  13. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Just in case the other responses were not enough....... this is a terrible idea
     
  14. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The aircraft was declared airworthy at the last annual, who's decision is it to declare safe to fly?
    Who's responsibility to defend them selves at the NTSB hearing?

    If I were to fly that 210 to a maintenance facility, I'd CYA with a ferry permit.
     
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  15. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The aircraft can obviously fly with the gear down. Does it have gear extended flight restrictions? How long is your intended flight? Are the nose gear doors wide open and are they going cause increased fuel burn that you need to plan for?
     
  16. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Read much?

    With that said, I think we're being trolled...at least I hope we are.


    ...
     
  17. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yep I can read.

    So there is only one mechanic in the area that can look at this and hopefully repair it? Bull! Contact the Cessna Pilot Association and get a list of trained 210 mechanics and ferry it to him/her. This "mission" that the OP just has to fly I am willing to bet isn't so critical as to need to take chances.
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :yeahthat: ding ding I was waiting for someone to say it :thumbsup:

    and as Tom said, cya w/ a ferry permit, at least call about one
     
  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    How many A&Ps do you know that have the tall jacks for a 210 or the hydraulic power pack to run the gear?
    or the experience to set the stupid switches used by Cessna?
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    This is most shops busiest time of the year. and every one doesn't troll you as much as you believe.
     
  21. jnmeade

    jnmeade Cleared for Takeoff

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    I personally know a pilot who took off knowing the C210 gear would not retract and flew it with the gear down to the destination. The FAA busted him.
     
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  22. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've done it a few times at the airline, but it was approved by the company dispatchers/flight control/maintenance control, and listed the conditions we were to fly it under, no passengers.
     
  23. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Ok, what am I missing? The gear retract is a required safety element for flying? MEL/KTE?

    I have no experience with retractable gear, but to me this looks like a perfectly flyable aircraft and maybe you have to limit speed.
     
  24. Norman

    Norman En-Route

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    Technically the gear being inop renders the plane unairworthy. One could contact the FSDO and would likely be given a ferry permit.
     
  25. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    First, NO. As James said, it might be ok to fly it to a mx shop. In fact, I did that one time in the Bo. We flew from Tuscon to Phoenix because the gear wouldn't retract when we were 1,600 miles from home.

    Secondly, can you even manually retract the gear in a 210? The POH for the Bo says no. Even if you could, it would be a really foolish idea. What if the problem was something broken inside and you then couldn't get them back down again. Or wound up with them stuck halfway.
     
  26. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Still, I don't understand why. To me, the gear is down. It will be down when you take off, it will be down when you fly and it will be down when you land. If it were up and couldn't come down, then it would be a real problem, although I don't think even soft field techniques would work to get you off the ground.

    Is it required equipment? Max speed issue? Unstable? Creates aerodynamic issues?
     
  27. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The way the FAA sees it, the manufacturer designed the airplane with a retractable gear. If part of the system that operates the gear does not work and the manufacturer hasn’t spelled out that part as optional, then the system can not be operated as designed and therefore the aircraft is not airworthy.

    I’ve seen FSDOs take this to the extreme: at one point the San Diego FSDO was threatening a local flying club with enforcement action because pilots were flying airplanes that had open squawks even though the discrepancies were purely cosmetic like torn seat covers or cracked plastic in the interior.

    In the OPs case, the idea of hand pumping the gear is downright idiotic. On the other hand, while it may very well be perfectly safe to fly the airplane with the gear down, it is not legal since he would be intentionally operating an aircraft with a known defect.

    Hence the recommendations to get a ferry permit as a CYA.
     
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  28. TCABM

    TCABM Pre-takeoff checklist

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    As several others mentioned, the aircraft isn’t airworthy and the flight isn’t required. Get a ferry permit to relocate the aircraft to s suitable maintenance facility.

    The challenge isn’t that the landing gear system is inoperable. The challenge is you don’t know what causes the breaker to pop, unless you’ve had it diagnosed.

    Breakers pop due to excess electrical load. Until you know why that’s occurring, the worst case scenario results in an airborne electrical fire with smoke/fumes in the cockpit.

    Why would you knowingly consider the aircraft as airworthy and suitable for flight?
     
  29. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What requirement is there to retract the gear?

    Why does the TCDS list landing gear operating speed and landing gear extension speed?

    Why does the TCDS list a C.G. Range (Landing Gear Extended, and the moment change due to retracting the landing gear?
     
  30. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There is no requirement to retract the gear. The requirement is to have installed equipment operational or some approved method of operating the aircraft with inoperable equipment.
     
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  31. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    For one, I doubt you have any accurate preflight information such as fuel burns and cruise speeds.
     
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  32. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It is true true that is when they are designed to pop. It’s also possible to have a bad breaker and nothing else wrong with the system.
     
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  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Plus there is that thing about getting discrepancies repaired between inspections.
     
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  34. bflynn

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    Does a 210 have an equipment list? Is gear operation required for flight?

    I've asked this several times now and nobody is giving an answer. I don't know if it's because nobody knows for certain, but it's sounding like something that everyone knows, but nobody knows why.
     
  35. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It’s been a while since I’ve flown a 210, but I don’t recall seeing landing gear as an optional item on a MEL on any of the retractable planes I’ve flown.
     
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  36. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    So, sometime between inspections? What if you drag the inspection out like mentioned in another thread?
     
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  37. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Turns out I still have my old 210 POH. Unlike Beechcraft, Cessna didn’t publish an MEL. There is an equipment list for W&B purposes, but nothing on that list shows optional vs required for specified flight conditions.
     
  38. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    As I alluded to earlier, it is my strong belief you need gear down performance data. Cessna may have that and distribute it for ferry flight, but I don't believe it's readily available.
     
  39. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Good point. Wheels/tires are spelled out in the Cessna equipment list, but no other parts or components of the landing gear system are listed.
     
  40. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hence why I said to contact CPA and get a list of 210 mechanics and/or shops.