20% Wall Tax

PaulS said:
Regulations are fine, but they should be voted on by congress to become law, otherwise they should be regarded as suggestions.
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The problem with congress making regulations is that they may not know the industry very well. The example that comes to mind for me is the ATP rule to get hired at a 121 carrier. They made that rule in response to the Colgan accident when the accident had nothing to do with either of them not having ATPs. The captain obviously had one, and the FO had enough hours to get one.
 
I've noticed people tend to discuss regulation as if it's a linear scale. As if deregulating is always the answer... or more regulation will always fix everything. Nobody outside the few people actually directly impacted by the regulations ever asks if they are reasonable or necessary.

Seems to me we need to find a balance between dangerous products, pollution, extreme safety hazards, discrimination, etc and burying anyone trying to accomplish anything in the world under a truckload of paperwork. The people who really get hosed by this stuff are the small business owners. A large company can afford to keep a whole team of lawyers and other experts on the payroll to make sure they comply with this stuff. A lot of small businesses just have the owner trying to keep up with it all and his accounting, taxes, and the small matter of actually running the business.
 
cowman said:
I've noticed people tend to discuss regulation as if it's a linear scale. As if deregulating is always the answer... or more regulation will always fix everything. Nobody outside the few people actually directly impacted by the regulations ever asks if they are reasonable or necessary.

Seems to me we need to find a balance between dangerous products, pollution, extreme safety hazards, discrimination, etc and burying anyone trying to accomplish anything in the world under a truckload of paperwork. The people who really get hosed by this stuff are the small business owners. A large company can afford to keep a whole team of lawyers and other experts on the payroll to make sure they comply with this stuff. A lot of small businesses just have the owner trying to keep up with it all and his accounting, taxes, and the small matter of actually running the business.
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Amen. I'm trying to get a small business going and it's a challenge. I can also say that the EPA left science and logical decision making behind a long time ago and their footprint on the economy is substantial with no meaningful benifit in many cases. The regulatory environment of this country needs major revision.
 
Everskyward said:
I think it's a great idea to teach the people to do different things. But why wasn't that done before? Sometimes I think people spend too much time longing for the past and trying to get it back rather than moving ahead.
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The Feds have spent upwards of $40 million for displaced coal and steel worker retraining programs in WV, OH and KY. Now I have no idea of what the programs consist of, or what jobs the training is for, but I don't think it's accurate or fair to say the displaced workers have been forgotten. But I think you're right in saying it's far easier to pine for a bygone era than to move ahead.
 
I'm going to get myself into trouble....

So there were these workers who worked hard (much harder than I ever could or would) and 'someone' said "We don't like your industry" and effectively shut it down at a cost to everyone in prices of the goods the bad industry provided.

Then 'someone' said, "we've eliminated your livelihood, and we feel bad." Solution - Take money from all taxpayers to "retrain" you for work that 'someone' finds acceptable. Oh Joy!

Without 'someone' getting involved the industry would probably be viable for years. Otherwise new workers wouldn't go into it and the other ones would age out (retire) and there would not be a glut of unemployed needing to be "retrained."

Perhaps 'someone' needs some real problems of their own to concentrate on rather than fixating on creating problems for workers.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I think I remember seeing somewhere that the solar industry currently employs more people than the coal industry ever has, and market penetration is still in it's early stages.
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Fun with numbers. I bet that includes the armies of commissioned sales drones who accost me at home Depot, Lowes or the grocery store. Many of these panels are chinese produced, just another way of offshoring pollution and energy consumption.
 
We really should have been more diversified. Our economy has mainly depended on coal, boilernaking, pipefitting, healthcare and teachers for years. Many are getting training in fields such as mine(HVAC), that are not in high demand anymore, and never had similar pay/benefits. Schools don't know what to focus their training on, so until businesses start moving in, they just have to generalize. There is very high competition among the counties to lure in new businesses.. Many of the 40 and under crowd will end up leaving the area for work. If one has a $100-200K home, it is hard to sell. We are very glad we became debt-free in 2008, as that was our goal before my pp and RV build.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
The Feds have spent upwards of $40 million for displaced coal and steel worker retraining programs in WV, OH and KY. Now I have no idea of what the programs consist of, or what jobs the training is for, but I don't think it's accurate or fair to say the displaced workers have been forgotten. But I think you're right in saying it's far easier to pine for a bygone era than to move ahead.
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I don't think they've been forgotten as much as they THINK they've been forgotten. They thought their jobs were forever and that they would not be displaced by technology and cheaper labor. Then they didn't adapt when the inevitable happened. There are plenty of people who have moved on to something else when their field of work dried up, but the ones we are talking about didn't, for some reason.
 
Everskyward said:
There are plenty of people who have moved on to something else when their field of work dried up, but the ones we are talking about didn't, for some reason.
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I think the issue is that the field of work didn't "dry up", it had it's plug pulled by a policy decision.

Livery stables and TV/VCR repair businesses "dried up". Mining was terminated by 'someone'.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think they've been forgotten as much as they THINK they've been forgotten. They thought their jobs were forever and that they would not be displaced by technology and cheaper labor. Then they didn't adapt when the inevitable happened. There are plenty of people who have moved on to something else when their field of work dried up, but the ones we are talking about didn't, for some reason.
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If 'technology' means the systematic destruction of coal fired plants and 'cheaper labor' the low quality chinese dumping steel that plagues manufacturing for the last 10 years, then yes, their jobs were displaced by 'technology' and 'cheaper labor'.
 
Ravioli said:
I think the issue is that the field of work didn't "dry up", it had it's plug pulled by a policy decision.

Livery stables and TV/VCR repair businesses "dried up". Mining was terminated by 'someone'.
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Policy affects many industries. I don't think these are special.
 
weilke said:
If 'technology' means the systematic destruction of coal fired plants and 'cheaper labor' the low quality chinese dumping steel that plagues manufacturing for the last 10 years, then yes, their jobs were displaced by 'technology' and 'cheaper labor'.
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Many people benefited from these things and some were hurt. We have cleaner air and less expensive items made of steel. Jobs were gained in cleaner energy industries.
 
Everskyward said:
I think it's a great idea to teach the people to do different things. But why wasn't that done before? Sometimes I think people spend too much time longing for the past and trying to get it back rather than moving ahead.
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It was easier to just give them money for 99 weeks. That got more votes too.
 
Ravioli said:
I'm going to get myself into trouble....

So there were these workers who worked hard (much harder than I ever could or would) and 'someone' said "We don't like your industry" and effectively shut it down at a cost to everyone in prices of the goods the bad industry provided.

Then 'someone' said, "we've eliminated your livelihood, and we feel bad." Solution - Take money from all taxpayers to "retrain" you for work that 'someone' finds acceptable. Oh Joy!

Without 'someone' getting involved the industry would probably be viable for years. Otherwise new workers wouldn't go into it and the other ones would age out (retire) and there would not be a glut of unemployed needing to be "retrained."

Perhaps 'someone' needs some real problems of their own to concentrate on rather than fixating on creating problems for workers.
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That is a mischaracterization. Steel had every chance to adapt to changing markets. They enjoyed trade protection, minimum buying contracts, subsidies, the works. But management stuck to antiquated production methods using coke and old technology furnaces when the handwriting was on the wall that efficient production meant a move to electric arc furnace technology. They didn't make they investments, as a matter of fact they sucked the capital reserves dry. Yes, the workers paid the price for bad managent decisions, but then, they always do. As I pointed out, Nucor started up here, in NC, with mini-mills and electric arc, and is doing just fine.

The essential difference is that old technology furnaces had to run continually, moths, even years at a time, regardless of the demand for product. Electric arc can be started and shut down at a comparative moments notice. Big cost advantage.
 
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Everskyward said:
Many people benefited from these things and some were hurt. We have cleaner air and less expensive items made of steel. Jobs were gained in cleaner energy industries.
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'Many people' are mostly Chinese steel workers and the fast talking MBAs who make money on the import process. And yes, we have the cleaner air while Chinese cities have record numbers of deaths from respiratory illnesses.
 
As someone who has made a living from the steel industry I will say that in almost twenty years I can count on my right hand the amount of Chinese steel I have used. The U.S steel is by far the best choice and in most contracts is called for just for safety purposes. Canadian steel is also very much used and I think just about all of the 4130 in the world that is actually used for intended applications comes from Germany. Chinese steel is a joke in my world. I still get emails from Wicks aircraft supply trying to get rid of their Chinese chrome-moly.
The U.S steel industry is very much alive and well and is the gold standard the world over.
 
cowman said:
I'm worried about the next 50 years. I believe its going to be a great step towards the future of humanity- but whatever that ends up being but it's going to be a turbulent time.

We will eventually replace so many low-skill jobs with automation that we will run into the reality that we have far more people than we have a need for labor wise. We'll end up having to rethink everything about how we've allocated funds, goods, and services throughout history. There will still be many jobs that you need educated people to do yet there won't be enough jobs for everyone to have one. What will we do? Will we still maintain the full-time work model or limit the hours people can work to make room for more jobs? How will we take care of those who there simply isn't employment for? Surely those who bother to get an education and employment will expect a better standard of living for their troubles. What about those of us with accumulated wealth... and I don't just mean billionaires... what of those with family businesses, farms, those who invested well. There will surely be a large push to "distribute the wealth". Then there's the whole issue of how to handle an ever increasing population.....

I don't pretend to know how it will go and I think the end result will be a better brighter future.... but I'm really worried about living through the transition period and whether or not a person like me will be able to be happy living in such a world.
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This !

Reminds me of a Thomas Friedman book "Hot, Flat & Crowded". The solution for this plays right into a great dark science fiction movie - forced sterilization !
 
Everskyward said:
The problem with congress making regulations is that they may not know the industry very well. The example that comes to mind for me is the ATP rule to get hired at a 121 carrier. They made that rule in response to the Colgan accident when the accident had nothing to do with either of them not having ATPs. The captain obviously had one, and the FO had enough hours to get one.
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I think it was a great rule ! It forces F/Os to acquire exposure which in many cases leads to experience.
 
Art VanDelay said:
I think it was a great rule ! It forces F/Os to acquire exposure which in many cases leads to experience.
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I suspects that it also weeds out the Andreas Lubitzes to a considerable degree.
 
Ravioli said:
I'm going to get myself into trouble....

So there were these workers who worked hard (much harder than I ever could or would) and 'someone' said "We don't like your industry" and effectively shut it down at a cost to everyone in prices of the goods the bad industry provided.

Then 'someone' said, "we've eliminated your livelihood, and we feel bad." Solution - Take money from all taxpayers to "retrain" you for work that 'someone' finds acceptable. Oh Joy!

Without 'someone' getting involved the industry would probably be viable for years. Otherwise new workers wouldn't go into it and the other ones would age out (retire) and there would not be a glut of unemployed needing to be "retrained."

Perhaps 'someone' needs some real problems of their own to concentrate on rather than fixating on creating problems for workers.
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Why would you get in trouble for telling the truth?
 
weilke said:
If 'technology' means the systematic destruction of coal fired plants
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Shale gas, causing Natural Gas prices to fall.

Nothing systematic about it, just economics.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
That is a mischaracterization. Steel had every chance to adapt to changing markets. They enjoyed trade protection, minimum buying contracts, subsidies, the works. But management stuck to antiquated production methods using coke and old technology furnaces when the handwriting was on the wall that efficient production meant a move to electric arc furnace technology. They didn't make they investments, as a matter of fact they sucked the capital reserves dry. Yes, the workers paid the price for bad managent decisions, but then, they always do. As I pointed out, Nucor started up here, in NC, with mini-mills and electric arc, and is doing just fine.

The essential difference is that old technology furnaces had to run continually, moths, even years at a time, regardless of the demand for product. Electric arc can be started and shut down at a comparative moments notice. Big cost advantage.
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Our Electric-Arc plant just filed Ch 11 bankruptcy last month and the one I mentioned earlier was a Coke-Fired plant that laid off all but 120 of its 5500 employees(at peak times). Reduced demand from domestic energy producers, weakened iron ore and steel scrap pricing, weaker demand from the mining and agricultural sectors, a stronger U.S. Dollar has encouraged steel consumers to look offshore.
 
Ladies and gentlemen, this thread is all about politics. We aren't allowed to discuss politics on this forum.

No two ways about it.

You cannot tell me your opinion of regulation and trade policy without overtly showing your bent. I'm clearly conservative and laissez faire. Not much mystery there.

The opposing commentary is equally lacking in mystery.

We aren't allowed to discuss politics here, despite the fact that our hobby cannot exist without dead dinosaurs.
 
Ravioli said:
Ladies and gentlemen, this thread is all about politics. We aren't allowed to discuss politics on this forum.

No two ways about it.

You cannot tell me your opinion of regulation and trade policy without overtly showing your bent. I'm clearly conservative and laissez faire. Not much mystery there.

The opposing commentary is equally lacking in mystery.

We aren't allowed to discuss politics here, despite the fact that our hobby cannot exist without dead dinosaurs.
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You are right of course. But the reason for the ban on politics was the inevitable personal attacks that always occurred. I don't believe I have seen that here.

Still, I am surprised this thread has not been locked.
 
Matthew said:
It's been the most civil political/economic thread I may have ever seen.
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That's because despite our different views I think most folks here have respect for one another and consequently respect what folks have to say. I also think we have a generally intelligent and educated group here with life experience so most of us understand the merit in other points of view and know that compromise between opposing views is generally better than any one view having unfettered control.
Rock on POA
 
Matthew said:
It's been the most civil political/economic thread I may have ever seen.
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Yes it has. We are professionals, and I think most of us want many of the same things out out of life. I try to talk to you guys and gals, as if we just met at the local airport.
 
The US has tried trade barriers in the past. It still has some. They are not a panacea. I'm pretty sure Hoover and Congress tried tariffs after the Great Depression started. And it didn't work. Believe it or not, what works is stimulating the CONSUMER. Tax cuts and Tax Credits for the middle class and lower middle class. Get them out SHOPPING! and watch the BOOM!!! We have GOBS of supply. We can build TWICE as many cars and houses as we are building. Be careful about too much stimulus though. Look what happens when it crashes....(and its bound too, then it bounces back). Recesssions are unavoidable. Get those younguns into those jobs and get them buying homes, cars, furniture and appliances! Go baby go! And try and minimize and endure the recessions. Plan on inflation.

Thats my philosophy.
 
weilke said:
You are obviously wrong and you and people of your ilk are the end of western civilization ! ;)
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Heh - was watching reruns of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" last night. Now you reminded of a line. Betty White's character patted another character's bald head and said, "It must be a maternal instinct. But suddenly I have an urge to diaper your head."
 
deonb said:
Shale gas, causing Natural Gas prices to fall.

Nothing systematic about it, just economics.
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I know, it has absolutely nothing to do with the 2011 change in cross state polution standards, the 2012 changes in the mercury and air toxic standards or the changes in how PSD permits were handled . Because you know, before 2009, people were dropping like flies from mercury poisoning and the prior rules basically allowed one state to dump toxic waste into the next states air and water supply. Has nothing to do with it, its all economics, no political interference at all.
 
Clean air and water don't come for free anymore. We have to pay more to keep them clean. It IS less expensive to just dump industrial waste into the land, air and water without regard to the consequences. It costs money to handle industrial wastes in a less polluting way. You do want clean water and air don't you? Well it's gonna cost you some money.
 
Protectionism, which tariffs are, do not work. As the proponents of Mercantilism economy theory soon found out.

Here's the only thing protectionism does: It would be entirely possible to grow vines in heated greenhouses in Greenland and make wine locally. It would taste like tart c*ap, take forever to grow and cost a fortune. Everybody loses. Isn't it better that countries that are better suited for making wine makes the wine, and Greenland can sell fish and mining?

Tariff's have never increased a country's or its populations prosperity. Look at Venezuela, Argentina, North Korea etc - countries that have had huge import taxes on foreign goods and see how much good that's done for them. Their economies are in the toilet. In fact, give me a single example of a country that has prospered with high import taxes and no immigration except China (which is a special case)?

Tariffs and protectionism only hurts America in the long run.
 
Besides, who here thinks that white college students graduating are going to go sit in a sweatshop sewing clothes for minimum wage. Anyone?

We just have to accept that certain jobs that we did during the industrial revolution will never come back. The horse has left the barn. It's better that less productive nations and less skilled make our clothes for now, just like we did during our industrial revolution. Hypocritical to deny Chinese or Mexicans their opportunity to create a better future for their families, when we were granted the exact same opportunity years ago. That's how the wealth of our industrialized world was created. We worked in sweatshops for it. Or grew vegetables.
 
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stratobee said:
Besides, who here thinks that white college students graduating are going to go sit in a sweatshop sewing clothes for minimum wage. Anyone?

We just have to accept that certain jobs that we did during the industrial revolution will never come back. The horse has left the barn. It's better that less productive nations and less skilled do that, just like we did during our industrial revolution. You can't deny Chinese or Mexicans their opportunity to create a better future for their families, when we were granted the exact same opportunity years ago? That's how the wealth of our industrialized world was created. We worked in sweatshops for it. Or grew avocados. Why deny them or Mexico the very same opportunity?
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This is the same reason I object to first world nations trying to force developing countries to comply with our standards for environmental impact. Being clean as society is very expensive. It is immensely hypocritical to force clean energy on developing countries. What they need is affordable energy. In a few generations they will be just as green crazy as western society.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
This is the same reason I object to first world nations trying to force developing countries to comply with our standards for environmental impact. Being clean as society is very expensive. It is immensely hypocritical to force clean energy on developing countries. What they need is affordable energy. In a few generations they will be just as green crazy as western society.
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Totally agree. :)
 
cowman said:
I've noticed people tend to discuss regulation as if it's a linear scale. As if deregulating is always the answer... or more regulation will always fix everything. Nobody outside the few people actually directly impacted by the regulations ever asks if they are reasonable or necessary.

Seems to me we need to find a balance between dangerous products, pollution, extreme safety hazards, discrimination, etc and burying anyone trying to accomplish anything in the world under a truckload of paperwork. The people who really get hosed by this stuff are the small business owners. A large company can afford to keep a whole team of lawyers and other experts on the payroll to make sure they comply with this stuff. A lot of small businesses just have the owner trying to keep up with it all and his accounting, taxes, and the small matter of actually running the business.
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When someone's sole purpose in life is to think up new regulations, and this is what they are measured on, what do you think the result will be?
 
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