172 downwind landing gone awry

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

En-Route
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
3,758
Location
NEPA
Display Name
benyflyguy
Home Airfield
KHZL
25EFBA34-648F-4BF6-9F60-4117F6F110B1.jpeg Came up to field to check hangar after winds last night and saw this guy off the end. Per the Line guys they insisted on landing on 10 despite the 5-10 kt perfect tailwind with windsock standing at attention. We have 5000 ft for them to chew up. Apparently made two attempts prior to this and went around, third times a charm. Would love to know why they insisted on landing this way. Nobody hurt just the plane and feelings
 
Ten knot tailwind? I don't advise landing with that, but it shouldn't be a problem, particularly in an airplane with a nosewheel.
 
If the windsock was at attention, which I take to mean full extension, wouldn’t the wind be at 15 kts? That makes the pilot’s ADM even worse.
 
Just stopped up. Looks like they took out a couple lights with their elevator. Our AWOS I think under reports are wind. It sits in a bit of a hole. That’s why it’s important to look at the Windsock as well. Our runway has a hill about the middle third. But they probably did as a missed landing on the first third and the middle third is very awkward to land on especially with a tail wind is sloped up and so they didn’t land until they got on the top by then they were just going to fast.
Ground is real wet after the rains we had. They’re lucky if not to of hurt themselves. That’s the good news
 
I made a tail wind landing such as that once and I never want to do it again. My passenger wasn't a pilot and she thought that a bounced landing and a veer to the right of the runway was normal. I'd taken her to breakfast and I was so angry with myself for listening to a voice on the radio stating the runway in use rather than looking at the wind sock and deciding for myself, that I hardly talked during the meal. I made up for the horrible landing on the return trip but that experience has burned an indelible memory into my brain to see for myself rather than listening to others.
 
Sometimes it’s a good idea try something like this so you know what it’s like

if you have to do it.

My home strip has over 100 feet difference in elevation from end to end.

Also short with wires on uphill end.

In short ; intimidating.

It is always better to land downwind and uphill than the other way.

Takeoffs are easy as VSI shows descent on liftoff.
 
I used to see this sort of thing at our uncontrolled airport. Pilots from the nearby cities, some of them students, would come and land as part of a cross-country, maybe, and sometimes landed downwind. I once walked out and intercepted a student taxing back to the upwind end of the runway for takeoff and told him to look at the windsock and think about it. These guys were used to the controllers at their home airports telling them what runway to use, and observing and interpreting the sock wasn't part of their experience.

Eat the small end of the carrot first, one of my instructors used to say.
 
Piper provides landing data up 5 knot tailwind in the PA28s.
 
when I was still training my CFI had me do a tailwind landing just to see what it was like. I don't recall specifically but I'm pretty sure it was <10kts. that was my one and only.
 
Magman said:
Sometimes it’s a good idea try something like this so you know what it’s like

if you have to do it.

My home strip has over 100 feet difference in elevation from end to end.

Also short with wires on uphill end.

In short ; intimidating.

It is always better to land downwind and uphill than the other way.

Takeoffs are easy as VSI shows descent on liftoff.
Click to expand...

I like to demonstrate downwind landing and go arounds when I can during training. In part because we lost a perfectly good champ we used to rent for exactly this scenario. Landing downwind, uphill with a go around that couldn’t out climb the terrain.

The Demo shows that you are one likely to be very high on the approach, how fast it appears you are going near the ground and how poor or flat the go around is due to the increase ground speed.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL

Not sure I ever read the NTSB report just the report from the owner of the airplane, I used to teach in it, and even hand propped the plane for the guy. The NTSB report says crosswind with a tailwind climb out. I was told it was his 2nd approach and go around as the 1st was extremely high. So I suspect he had more tailwind than the NTSB report indicates.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20001211X10433&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA
 
Last edited:
Dan Thomas said:
I used to see this sort of thing at our uncontrolled airport. Pilots from the nearby cities, some of them students, would come and land as part of a cross-country, maybe, and sometimes landed downwind. I once walked out and intercepted a student taxing back to the upwind end of the runway for takeoff and told him to look at the windsock and think about it. These guys were used to the controllers at their home airports telling them what runway to use, and observing and interpreting the sock wasn't part of their experience.

Eat the small end of the carrot first, one of my instructors used to say.
Click to expand...

I like, taxi the runway it is pointing to.

Brian
 
I remember my instructor took me up in the 182 and then more recently in the Lance and we purposely did a tail wind landing as well as takeoff. It was more just to be able to experience how is feeling and what to expect and also to try to avoid it at any time you can. I was amazed at how much runway we chewed up taking off in the Lance.
 
I don't know the details of this incident, but anyone (even a private pilot, Ok kidding:smilewinkgrin:) should be able to land with a 10-15 knot tail wind in 5000 feet.

I watched a guy land a C-340 with a 30 knot tail wind and only use up about 1700 feet. That is the turnoff is 1700 feet and he made that with no smoking tires or brakes. Hint: his plane, owned it for many years, and he has lived in the windy southwest for just as many years where wind is pretty much ignored once a person is used to it.

The flight school (pilot mill, 141) I went to had in the syllabus 10 down wind landings in a C-152. 5 day, 5 night, with instructor. The cut off was 10 knots though. My instructor had me do a night landing with a 15 knot tail wind. Real eye opener at the time.
 
The 10-kt tailwind at touchdown is no big deal on 5000 feet. It's the wind on approach. At a few hundred feet that wind is considerably stronger than it is on the ground, and if you're not adjusting your approach for it you're going to be high, as the wind carries you closer to the runway real fast, and most pilots are going to make the classic mistake of diving at the runway to try to get down. Diving results in way too much airspeed and the airplane doesn't want to land, and if they force it on, bad things can happen, and all that momentum has to be dissipated somehow. Five thousand feet won't save you. You already touched down halfway down that runway. Maybe more than halfway.

That accident (incident?) started way back on downwind. Most such accidents do.
 
rk911 said:
when I was still training my CFI had me do a tailwind landing just to see what it was like. I don't recall specifically but I'm pretty sure it was <10kts. that was my one and only.
Click to expand...
Mine did too - good experience to have in the bag of tricks. I practice a couple occasionally on a long, easy runway and never more that 10kts
 
Dan Thomas said:
You already touched down halfway down that runway. Maybe more than halfway.
Click to expand...
It’s amazing how many pilots are unaware of how much runway they’ve flown past…including type-rated jet pilots. I don’t know anybody who’ll say they can land a corporate jet in 1000 feet, but I know of a couple who have tried.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s amazing how many pilots are unaware of how much runway they’ve flown past…including type-rated jet pilots. I don’t know anybody who’ll say they can land a corporate jet in 1000 feet, but I know of a couple who have tried.
Click to expand...
Are you talking touchdown in 1000’ ?
If so, that was a fairly easy task in a medium size corporate jet.
I will admit I don’t think I’ve yet accomplished that in the Airbus.
 
Kritchlow said:
Are you talking touchdown in 1000’ ?
If so, that was a fairly easy task in a medium size corporate jet.
I will admit I don’t think I’ve yet accomplished that in the Airbus.
Click to expand...
No…touchdown and stop in the LAST 1000 feet.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s amazing how many pilots are unaware of how much runway they’ve flown past…including type-rated jet pilots. I don’t know anybody who’ll say they can land a corporate jet in 1000 feet, but I know of a couple who have tried.
Click to expand...
MauleSkinner said:
No…touchdown and stop in the LAST 1000 feet.
Click to expand...

Well if your hangar is on that end of the runway, why not? Saves taxi time.
:cool:
 
Dan Thomas said:
The 10-kt tailwind at touchdown is no big deal on 5000 feet. It's the wind on approach. At a few hundred feet that wind is considerably stronger than it is on the ground, and if you're not adjusting your approach for it you're going to be high, as the wind carries you closer to the runway real fast, and most pilots are going to make the classic mistake of diving at the runway to try to get down. Diving results in way too much airspeed and the airplane doesn't want to land, and if they force it on, bad things can happen, and all that momentum has to be dissipated somehow. Five thousand feet won't save you. You already touched down halfway down that runway. Maybe more than halfway.

That accident (incident?) started way back on downwind. Most such accidents do.
Click to expand...
Yep. Even a Skyhawk going close to 100 kts in ground effect will go thousands of feet. Thousands.
 
Apparently this have been upgraded from an incident to an accident. Rather significant elevator damage from creaming some lights. NTSB coming to investigate. Until
There are more details concrete will refrain from further comment, but it is very interesting
 
unsafervguy said:
if you cant land a 182 on 5000 feet even with a 10 knot tailwind, you have bigger problems with your abilities.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree. Not promoting a tailwind landing but if you can’t land on a 5k runway with a straight tailwind of 5 to 10 knots we have a lack of fundamental control skills. The fact that this was a 3rd attempt indicates they didn’t realize they even had a tailwind in the first place. Was this a flight school airplane? Maybe a solo flight gone wrong?
We recently had a student pilot skate a 172 off the side of the runway into a ditch totaling it. Clear and calm day with 5 knots crosswind.
 
sometimes we are coming back from a trip and wife needs to pee!!! downwind landings sometimes are quickest way to the bathroom!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top